Can't play anything on my guitar anymore

Subject: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: Marion
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 12:22 PM

Has anyone else had this problem?

When I first started guitar, I learned the basic chords and strumming/fingerpicking patterns, then spent a few years enjoying the fact that I could chord along to songs. I learned the chords for dozens of songs - maybe even a hundred - and could play them confidently and by memory; they were very simple, but they did the job.

Then I decided to get serious about the guitar. Got a better guitar, started taking lessons, started practicing scales and hard chords and other techie stuff, and started working on songs that were much more demanding.

But the upshot of this is that I spend pretty much all of my guitar time learning technical stuff and working on songs that are difficult for me - I don't play my simple repertoire anymore, and I've forgotten it.

This was really evident this week as I've come home for Easter - my old jam buddy wanted to see what exciting new songs I had learned, but I didn't have anything to show off - my flashy new songs are not quite ready for performance yet. And when my mother asked for Amazing Grace, I forgot that it was in 3/4 so I had to stop and start again, and I forgot what key it was best for me to sing it. A little embarrassing, frankly.

I'm glad that I'm moving on to more advanced stuff, and I believe that my practicing will pay off eventually, but in the meantime I feel kind of stuck between two levels - can't play the new stuff yet, and can't remember the old stuff.

Marion

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 01:05 PM

It's almost a "can't see the forest for the trees somedays" situation isn't it Marion? I know that I've been working hard on the mandolin lately - and when I pick up my guitar it's like I'm trying to speak another language. The neck feels like a tree stump and the strings are made of rubber. It's a good lesson for us to slow down from time to time and look back at our old song lists to make sure we haven't forgotten them. I know what you're talking about.

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: Grab
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 01:34 PM

Yeah, it sucks when you say "oh yeah, I know that", get all set, and then realise you can't remember the first line of the first verse! :-)

Use some of the easy songs for warming up prior to your serious practise. "Amazing Grace" for example is simple when strummed slowly, but play it finger-picking and playing the tune and it becomes a lot more challenging - or mess with the chords and play interesting bass-line riffs with your thumb to fill the gaps between phrases.

Try keeping a list of all your repertoire. And then you can keep the details about the song (key, capo position, rhythm details, first lines of verse for prompting, etc) written down as well. I use an MS Access database to store my stuff (cos it's easy to enter new stuff, easy to make changes and easy to print out) - if you have access to Access then I can email you the database for your use if you like. Besides, it's nice when you look at your list and realise that you actually know lots of songs. :-) Kind of an antidote to the problem of your turn coming round in the song circle, and not having a clue what to play.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: JenEllen
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 02:45 PM

One thing that worked for me was a Type-A solution to my cluttered practicing.

I have a huge notebook for each instrument, and they are split into three sections. Stuff I've nailed, stuff I'm working on, and stuff I plan to get to before I die.

Even if your "nailed" stuff is only a simple song list, it works as a great refresher to remember that you did at one time know this song. I can go down the list during warm-up and think "Well, I haven't played that in a while" and try it again. Then too, as my playing gets better, often times I can apply new techniques and ideas to things I thought I already knew.

Best of luck,
Jen

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 02:50 PM

I'm with JenEllen - and with my memory I need the notebook!!!

Steve

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: C-flat
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 02:55 PM

Marion, you're about to break the "pain barrier". Like most things, as you progress,it occasionally gets worse before it gets better. Go back and re-learn your old reportoire from scratch using your new skills and I'll bet you hear the difference! I feel like I've been through the same thing many times when my head's full of new stuff, but once the new stuff is in the hands rather than in the head you find you're moving on to the next level!

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: Marion
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 03:37 PM

Thanks for the input folks. I like what you said, C-flat, about having to get worse before getting better.

On reflection I realize that it isn't a matter of time or organization stopping me from reviewing my earlier repertoire, it's a matter of will. I just don't want to play the simpler stuff anymore - it's not as fun for me, it doesn't make me feel that I'm getting somewhere, and, truth be told, it doesn't impress anybody.

As Woody Allen might have put it, I don't want to play any song that's so basic that it can be played by me.

Marion

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 03:52 PM

In 15 years of teaching the absolute HARDEST thing I deal with are folks who "sort of" play complex arrangements (from tab) when they haven't nailed the basics. If you can't play Wildwood Flower from beginning to end with simple bass runs and no mistakes, you'll never learn to play Blackberry Blossom with proper speed and 'feel'.

The biggest roadblock for some is that they "HEAR" stuff that's much more complicated than they're able to play at the moment. Tab is not a help in those cases, it can set you back quite bit, and in a lot of cases (I've seen this over and over) can prevent you from ever just sitting down and picking with folks.

I try to get folks playing simple songs in a simple way. When they've nailed that (and that means without any mistakes) start adding simple bass runs. Next start playing some "inner leads" (you need a couple of scales in simple keys for this). Often the next step is melody on the high strings, but you can't do this smoothly until you've mastered the first three steps.

Once you've done that (it takes concentration not to veer off in different directions) you can play a simple song in a fresh and reasonably complex way...Then you'll find that you can learn OTHER songs in that key in one tenth the time....'cause you've learned how to make the KEY interesting.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: RichM
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 03:53 PM

It's part of a natural progression in learning...Eventually your challenging new pieces will be part of your (easy)repertoire.

And don't forget, that complexity is not the goal; some songs sound best when accompanied simply. In any case, don't let the technical side take precedence over what sounds 'good'!

And do go back and explore some of the older pieces in your repertoire, and add some of the new techniques you've learned since.

Rich

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 04:29 PM

I sympathize with others in this situation--over the years I have worked up many different repertoires for solo or band stuff that I was. doing, only to have it all dry up and blow away after I finished whatever gig I was doing it for--JenEllen mentioned keeping folders, and I second the motion, because music, with lyrics, notes on fingerings and the odd chord diagram, makes it possible to either reconstruct or rearrange with out having to "remember"--

The trickiest part, really, is converting stuff from the way you used to play to the way that you play now--partly because the temptation is there to fancy it up, when a lot of times, part of getting better is learning how to make simple stuff sound good--

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 10:00 PM

How did I play that? Marion it only gets worse. I keep a three ring binder-it's always out of date. Good advice everyone. I will be more diligent about keeping notes. What M.Ted said--it doesn't have to be complicated, just the words and the key riff/special chord.

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 01:52 PM

Rick - I am SO pleased you recommend nailing the basics before moving on to fancier stuff. I've parted company from my guitar teacher as I felt he was introducing advanced techniques way too early (for me anyway). Sorry 'bout drift.

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 02:21 PM

That ain't drift Guest!!

For soooo many years, I've seen flashy soloists who can't play a simple three chord rhythm in a jam session. Yuchhhh!

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 02:46 PM

This thread could have very easily been started by me.

I took up the Banjo a number of years ago, tried to learn through a very good series of audio tapes. I learned a bunch of tunes note for note, but I got lost when I tried playing with people. I stopped playing for a lot of years due to a combination of frustration and lack of time.

I also had no understanding of music theory, couldn't read music or tab, so I was really stuck. Having more time and wanting to start again I picked up the banjo and the tapes last fall and went hell bound for leather to knock the rust off.

I was given a series of lessons for Christmas. I will admit that theory has been very helpful as I now understand basis Chord structure and progressions.

I bought a beautiful banjo right here at the Mudcat from the auction. I was concerned about it's set up. Rick offered to look it over for me. Hoping to get out of there without playing a note, Rick had me play something "just to check out the set-up" (Yeah, Right). He played along for about a minute, put down his banjo and went into the diatribe he posted above. He then said "play 3-2-5-1" and had me repeat and repeat it, then had me change chords, slide, hammer etc. He told me to practice that until I had it cold and I could be playing along with people in three days. Well, I haven't had a chance to play with anybody yet, but I can hear that I'm a lot closer to being able to than I was last week.

I have taught hockey goaltending at many levels for years. The first thing that I work on with any new student is basic funadamentals, and I stay with those until they're mastered. I understand where Rick is coming from and I'm willing to listen to him (I've heard him play).

The other thing about trying to learn on my own is that I ingrained many bad habits and have been spending as much time trying to fix them as trying to move on.

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: GUEST,CraigS
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 03:47 PM

I have a repertoire of songs that I picked up, rather than learned, from records and the radio in the 60s. I would say that I started teaching myself to play guitar in 72, but I have no difficulty playing those songs because they are so familiar. I would say that it is one thing to learn fancy picking, but this is a matter of practice and dexterity. The other areas to focus on are the ear and the memory. How you can improve the memory for songs I don't know. Playing by ear is a gift that can be improved by the techniques used in helping people to sing, especially in improving pitch. To expand this, the best musicians recognise what they hear as something they can play - particularly, they recognise the sound of chords and arpeggios as something they have played (every chord on the guitar is an arpeggio - even if strummed fast, the strum goes across, and every shape has its sound). If you learn to play from paper, you don't absorb the tune - you play the dots or tab, and the tune comes out. Take the paper away and you can't play the tune. I learned the piano when young. Put the dots in front of me and I'll play Cry Me A River on the piano. Take them away and I can't do it. Give me a GUITAR and I'll play it in all thirteen keys, but don't ask me to sight-read the melody on the guitar - that takes a fortnight's practice at sight-reading. When you have learned those fancy picks and tunes, you have to listen to other tunes you haven't learned, relate the musical patterns to what you should know, and pick them out without help from teacher or paper. That's when you start to LEARN the songs.

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: 53
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 07:13 PM

I have been playing for over 35 years now and I have just settled down into a routine of learning the major scales. I find it work and fun at the same time.

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 07:23 PM

"it doesn't make me feel that I'm getting somewhere, and, truth be told, it doesn't impress anybody."

That doesn't sound like a comfortable kind of attitude. "Life is real, life is earnest..."

Rick sounds one hell of a good teacher. But then we know that already.

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 07:34 PM

I have a different problem but perhaps related. Apart from a few bits and pieces, I largely dropped the guitar and playing chords in general and these days it is quite rare for me to play much beyond melody lines on banjo and mandolin.

I have no problem with the basic C/G/D, etc chords on a guitar and still haven't lost the ability to hear these simple chord changes (never needed a book for that beyond learning the first couple of tunes) although I never developed an ear that would hear the more subtle changes.

The real problem to me is that it becomes increasingly difficult for me to get my fingers to form chord shapes and learning a new chord is just like starting from the beginning again - all my left hand seems to want to do is rattle out the jigs and reels in the std keys and with a lazy little finger...

Anyone else ever got themselves in that position?

Jon

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 08:05 PM

Well, I thought it was time I contrbuted to a music thread for a change! I have just bought a guitar (about a week ago) and I have been playing mandolin for about a month.I am 33 and I have been interested in music all my life but never really bothered to learn an instrument until a few people encouraged me (Bill Sabels, Jon Freeman and harpmaker) Thanks Guys! I am having madolin lessons every week and will start guitar lessons as soon as I can afford it, I totally agree with the people that said learn the basics first, if I were to give 2 more pieces of advice it would be -Buy the best instrument you can afford, and practise as much as you can.Afer my first lesson, my mandolin teacher asked if I practised that week, I said no, I haven't because I have been busy working etc.He said practise for an hour before I go to work, which I did. I found that when I practise my playing gets much better.

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 11:02 PM

John, good luck with the instruments... As you progress, you will probably find that practice=immediate obvious rewards like that do not always come and that the learning curve has it's points where you seem to just be stuck going nowhere or possibly even backwards but as far as I can tell, those that put the effort in do succeed - I think there is the natural talent factor but even those with that have to work hard to get the most out of what they have.

As for me, I'm just plain lazy - did a bit of practicing when I moved here to try to get to a situation where I felt comfortable (and I am playing a lot better than say 1 year ago) but once I felt able to join in with the session, that was it - I just play once a week on the night now and a little on Paltlak or if something else crops up as I know I can do enough to get by, at least most of the time. There are times when I try to tell myself I could have been really good by now but in honesty, I never give myself the chance to find out...

Jon

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: Marion
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 01:31 AM

Rick, I knew that you're a good teacher, but I didn't realize that you were psychic. I was just thinking a few days ago that I needed a new flatpicking project, and was trying to decide between pickin one of Maybelle's songs to ear out, or trying out some tab I have for Blackberry Blossom. Coincidence? Maybe. Anyway...

I have no argument with the idea that you have to have the basics down before doing more complicated stuff. But I like to think that I do have the basics down - when I said that I "can't" play Amazing Grace, I meant that I don't have the key choice/progression memorized the way I used to. But I certainly have the technique to play it, and to figure out a chord progression for it on short notice.

The irony that I wanted to point out was this: I can't remember the chords to Amazing Grace because I don't play it, and I don't play it precisely because I can play it. What I can't do is simply much more interesting to me than what I can do.

Thanks for the discussion all, and good luck John of Hull,

Marion

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 05:08 AM

I think there probably are different ways all our brains are wired up. Some people think in term of chord sequences, others think in terms of melody and counter melody, even when you are playing chords (a chord being felt as the vehicle for carrying the particular note you are after).

Often in these kinds of discussions, for example about the way we learn things, I think we tend to assume that really everyone else really works the same way as we do, and I don't think that is at all true.

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 05:44 AM

Thanks Jon. The reason I said get the best instrument you can afford is I tried a more expensive instrunent last week and it was a lot eaisier to play than mine.

Subject: RE: Can't play anything on my guitar anymore
From: 53
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 10:56 PM

Ever since my band broke up I haven't had the need for as much practice and learning new material, so I use my time for enjoyment and just playing for fun and enjoyment. Today I realized that I need to continue on my practice.