Stolen/Uncredited Songs and Tunes

Subject: Stolen/Uncredited Songs and Tunes
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 01:21 PM

Grrrrr. It's happened again. I wrote lyrics for a "new" tune that I learned about 10 years ago from a musician originally from Tennessee who said he had changed a tune enough that he gave it a new name- and, Besides, he said, no one has ever heard of 'Pinnacle Mountain!' HA!

I just listened to 'Big Country Bluegrass's' recording of Pinnacle Mountain Breakdown. The A part is changed somewhat from what I know, although the chord pattern is intact, but the B part, which is what makes the tune is identical.

This happened once before when a friend gave me scraps of phrases and asked me to write a song from them, which I did, plus giving it a chorus. THEN I find that the phrases were the basic lyrics of 'Maiden's Prayer', leaving me with an unusable song.

What's with these people? The world of music is too small not to expect to be found out.

Subject: RE: Stolen/Uncredited Songs and Tunes
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 01:27 PM

Quite a number of compositions from the 1930s (and older) are now being called traditional although the authors are known. A lot of it is due to laziness and a disinclination to do any research, rather than dishonest intent.

Subject: RE: Stolen/Uncredited Songs and Tunes
From: JenBurdoo
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 01:40 PM

Also, some of them have become so well-known that, whether the author likes it or not, they've passed into de facto public domain. I keep running into Shoals of Herring described as a 'traditional' song.

A lot of folksongs, even the published and authored ones, have undergone a great deal of change, passed into cliches or become local staples. Waltzing Matilda and Flower of Scotland are "unofficial" national anthems, for example.

Subject: RE: Stolen/Uncredited Songs and Tunes
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 02:16 PM

Australians know very well the history and authorship of Waltzing Matilda. See Matilda

Subject: RE: Stolen/Uncredited Songs and Tunes
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 02:19 PM

Let us, also, keep in mind the way that recording and music publishing companies did buisness in those days. You would go into the company with your song (maybe one that you had made up maybe just one you grew up hearing), you'd record it and they'd pay you something in the neighborhood of twenty dollars. The musicians thought they were making out like bandits because twenty bucks, in those days, was a lot of money. Of course, most of them didn't know anything about copyrights or song ownership and didn't know the profit potential for the recording company. Several artists at several record companies with similar or identical songs has created an unbelievable tangle of through, under and over-lapping copyrights which folklorists and ethnomusicologists are still trying to unravel.

Keep in mind Arlo Guthrie's story about his father and Leadbelly plugging "Goodnight, Irene" in Chicago.

Stephen

Subject: RE: Stolen/Uncredited Songs and Tunes
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 02:24 PM

For the story of Waltzing Matilda and its copyright problem in the United States, see Matilda
At the Salt Lake City Olympics, Australia paid royalties to have the song played (Not the anthem, but beloved by all Australians). This has recently been the subject of a copyright thread.

Subject: RE: Stolen/Uncredited Songs and Tunes
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 03:01 PM

Notice that the examples given above don't apply to my problem, i.e. friends who passed something off as belonging to themselves.

On the other hand, it just occurred to me that my 'Juneau Breakdown' can still be sung, by presenting it as "to the tune of Pinnacle Mountain". The variations in the A part of the tune are not great enough to disqualify it; it's more like a different version. And I *can* use my tune of 'Twilight Waltz', just not the lyrics of Maiden's Prayer.

But the very next person who asks me to write a song or tune...! I'll be jumping down an innocent person's throat, no doubt.

Subject: RE: Stolen/Uncredited Songs and Tunes
From: GUEST,Phillip
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 06:05 PM

Interesting! One person admits that they took something from someone else, who in turn did the same: "...I learned about 10 years ago from a musician originally from Tennessee who said he had changed a tune enough that he gave it a new name-...", and complains when someone else does likewise? i.e. "...The A part is changed somewhat from what I know, although the chord pattern is intact..."

If identical chord patterns are to become the basis for "owning" a song, we're all in trouble.

If you've got something unique, get it published, or record it, or mail yourself a cassette tape of it in a sealed envelope, or get a copy of it notarized and then challenge the "offending" parties when the situation arises.

Subject: RE: Stolen/Uncredited Songs and Tunes
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 08:39 PM

Part of the problem is that there are a finite number of ways to put notes together in order to create a pleasing effect. Add to that the fact that people working in nearly any form of music tend to be mental sponges absorbing everything they hear and, in one form or another, recycling it into thier subsequent work. Most of the time this "recycling" is unintentional: "My Sweet Lord"/"He's So Fine", "The Twentieth Century Is Almost Over"/"The Old Grey Mare She Ain't What She Used To Be", not to mention countless hit country songs written to the tunes of "Wabash Cannonball" or "Great Speckled Bird". Sometimes it's deliberate as when Jazz musicians "quote" a few bars of a well known melody as part of a solo.

In your particular case, you might want to tread a bit more carefully next time by doing a copyright search and tracking down a recording of the original before commiting yourself. You'll prevent worlds of aggrivation from occuring after the fact.

Note that this is not meant as any sort of value judgement -- merely an observation.

Stephen

Subject: RE: Stolen/Uncredited Songs and Tunes
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 09:37 PM

True, Stephen. For instance, this morning for the first time I went through Google and about 25 websites in, here was the Pinnacle Mountain recording. If I had done that when my friend first started playing it, I would've learned very quickly that there wasn't much of a difference between the two tunes.

If I understand you correctly, Guest/Philip, you're saying that I'm complaining now about something that I also had done. Guess I didn't make it clear: my friend who taught me the tune 10 years ago is the one who asked me to write lyrics for it. He has since moved back to Tennessee, so I can't ask him about it.

What brought this on is that just yesterday I taught the song to a mando player. Out of curiousity this morning I checked to see if I could find anything about Pinnacle Mountain. Most surprised, I was.