Lyr Req: The Sour Grove - medieval Welsh poem

Subject: The Sour Grove - medieval Welsh poem
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 May 02 - 12:41 PM

The Mediaeval Baebes (sic) have this on their new CD "The Rose." They said it was written by a Welsh woman who got tired of the medieval men writing only about women being so pure and their nice bits. She decided there needed to be a song about the "best" bit they were missing!

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Sour Grove - medieval Welsh poem
From: GUEST,Van Lingle
Date: 19 May 02 - 01:16 PM

I caught a snatch of that story this morning, kat. Sorry. I do like their singing and music and thought they were quite funny. vl

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Sour Grove - medieval Welsh poem
From: little john cameron
Date: 19 May 02 - 01:37 PM

Try this KAT.Baebes

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Sour Grove - medieval Welsh poem
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 May 02 - 02:46 PM

Amazon says the song was "banned for praising the human genitalia." The poem could well be 15th C as advertised, but the skeletal tune is the Baebes own.
The complete poem in English (long identifier, hope I get it right): Cwydd y Cedor

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Sour Grove - medieval Welsh poem
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 May 02 - 02:51 PM

At the bottom of the English version, there is a clickie on the left that leads to the Welsh words.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Sour Grove - medieval Welsh poem
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 May 02 - 03:08 PM

One more addition: The poem is by Gwerful Marchain, ca. 1460/3-1500. Perhaps someone can tell if this poet was male or female.
The story the Baebes tell of its origin must be taken cum grano salis.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Sour Grove - medieval Welsh poem
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 May 02 - 03:12 PM

Female. There are some small details on the same site referred to above: Gwerful Mechain

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Sour Grove - medieval Welsh poem
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 May 02 - 04:15 PM

Thanks! Masato has put links in the other thread I started about the Mediaeval Baebes. Really appreciate it, guys!

kat

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Sour Grove - medieval Welsh poem
From: CapriUni
Date: 19 May 02 - 08:05 PM

Heh.

Having read the poem, I really think this Gwerful Mechain "Baebe" would've made a great Mudcatter -- someone to give Spaw a run for his money!!

Now, is it just me, or do other get the impression that our culture is still more open about celebrating male genitalia than female?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Sour Grove - medieval Welsh poem
From: bill kennedy
Date: 20 May 02 - 11:16 AM

Dicho, your link does go to the correct site, but you've spelled it wrong, it's Cywydd, not Cwydd

for those interested, the title is a form of Welsh poetry, more exactly it's Cywydd Deuair Hirion 'ouplets, of seven-syllable lines, rhyming a stressed with an unstressed syllable'

and the word Cedor means pubic hair (Male or Female) close to Irish caithir, and interesting note on belladonna, in Welsh it's the 'witches pubic hair' (see below)

cedor [ke -dor] feminine noun PLURAL cedorau [ke- do -re] 1 pubic hairs llau cedor lice in the pubic hair ETYMOLOGY: Welsh < British < Celtic Breton: kezhour (= pubic hair), Irish: caithir (= down, pubic hair) NOTE: see cedowrach = deadly nightshade, belladona

cedor gelc [ke-dor gelk] feminine noun North Wales 1 hair of the armpit ETYMOLOGY: (cedor = pubic hair) + soft mutation + (celc = hidden)

cedor y wrach [ke-dor ø wraakh] feminine noun 1 see cedowrach

cedorol [ke- dô -rol] adjective 1 pubic ETYMOLOGY: (cedor = pubic hair) + (-ol = suffix for forming adjectives)

cedowrach [ke- dou -rakh] feminine noun 1 Atropa belladonna = deadly nightshade, belladona ETYMOLOGY: cedowrach < cedor y wrach (the) pubic hair (of) the witch NOTE: codwarth (a variant of this word)

I thought the interview was amusing, the 'Babes' sound like fun, but it's awful too New-Agey music for me. Give me Benjamin Bagby's attempt at being authentic at least, though it's good to have them introducing these things to a larger audience, who then might go out and find other versions.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Sour Grove - medieval Welsh poem
From: bill kennedy
Date: 20 May 02 - 11:33 AM

what about the Sheila-na-gig then?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Sour Grove - medieval Welsh poem
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 May 02 - 11:37 AM

Bill, I got the spelling right when I linked, but all those cy wy's were too much for this non-Welsh speaker. Thanks for the etymology. And since you mentioned pubic lice, entomology as well.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Sour Grove - medieval Welsh poem
From: CapriUni
Date: 20 May 02 - 01:01 PM

I assume, Bill, that your: "what about the Sheila-na-gig then?" is in reference to my comment about the celebration of Male genetalia being less taboo than female...

Yes, She is one of the grandest celebrations from ancient times, and if you live in Ireland, I suppose you see more of her than if you live in the States. But as someone who lives Stateside, I can tell you I see less of Her in books of Celtic Mythology than I do of that giant figure cut out of chalk, with the erect penis and raised club (and my brain has gone on a complete name-stall on that, and I can't remember His "official" title -- "Giant of Someplace," I think).

And since the unfortunate fate of John Wayne Bobbit, when the newscasters had no choice but to say the word "penis" on the air, sexual jokes about that organ are all over the sitcoms... but I've yet to hear similiar jokes from the female perspective, and "vagina" is hardly ever used, even when talking of women's health issues....

Just an observation, on my part.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Sour Grove - medieval Welsh poem
From: bill kennedy
Date: 20 May 02 - 01:24 PM

CapriUni - yes, I think I'd agree with you, but not wholly. The whole sexuality thing is crazy in the States (where I reside as well). There is much more female full frontal nudity for example than male, in almost every film, etc., (not that I mind that, of course!) I did hear Garrison Keillor reading from his new book about a boy who finds some interesting medical textbook where he learns all these new words, like 'vagina', which he pronounced to rhyme with wagon-a, (accent on first syllable) all on NPR! But I think your right about most people being uncomfortable with talking about the female, even though there are so many stupid ads for 'feminine hygiene' products everywhere, that refuse to say what it is they are saying, or talk about what it is they are talking about. It is interesting in relation to the discussion of this poem that on most of the French post cards, and Victorian and Edwardian erotica photography, the female pubic hair is airbrushed out, as if it didn't exist. And today thanks to the personal tastes and distastes of Hugh Hefner and his ilk, again, female hair is to be shaved, bald, or the so-called landing strip. (really I do not read these mags, but I have heard about this trend!) and no under arm hair, nothing hairy! I find this attitude childish and moronoic, being of the very hirsute variety, (though I did not contribute that personal info on the beard thread!) Where did all the 'Miss Naturals' of the 60s go to? I'm with the Welsh poet on this one, there is beauty, there is.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Sour Grove - medieval Welsh poem
From: bill kennedy
Date: 20 May 02 - 01:31 PM

oh and it's the 'Cerne Giant', I think, or the 'Rude man of Cerna Abbas' there is another one, whose name escapes me

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Sour Grove - medieval Welsh poem
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 May 02 - 02:03 PM

CapriUni, I imagine that you are familiar with "The Dinner Party" by Judy Chicago. The exhibit, of 39 ceramic plates, decorated with representations of the female genitalia, toured widely to galleries. A 250 page oversize book by Judy Chicago (1979) called "The Dinner Party, a Symbol of Our Heritage," was printed at the time. A running header to the pages, states her points in brief. "In the beginning, the feminine principle was seen as the fundamental cosmic force. All ancient peoples believed that the world was created by a female deity." (An exaggeration, since we know only a little about some ancient peoples, but the female principle was important in relics that have come down to us). Another sentence states "The Judeo-Christian tradition absorbed all deities into a single, male godhead." This is essentially true, although there are remnants of older beliefs in the Hindu religion and in some small, surviving matriarchal societies; these are not apparent in our western civilization.
Chicago devoted five years of her life to researching and completing her work, which, unfortunately, is not known widely.

Subject: Lyr Add: OLD TIME RELIGION (Druid version)
From: GUEST, Gareth, Cookieless
Date: 20 May 02 - 06:54 PM

Nice to see that the traditions of the average Rugby Club seem to have a basis on history.

And I speak from bitter experience, when the Women start singing, well I've seen strong Colliers, Steelworkers and Dockers blanche, duck, and run for cover.

However, on a more humourous note :-

Give us that old time religion

from the Druids and Faerea's section

That old wondrous faerie, Morgan
Could appreciate an organ
Just as long as it was workin'
And that's good enough for me

Oh the Welsh gods, -you- announce 'em
Asking my gods to renounce 'em
But our gods, I can't pronounce 'em
But he's good enough for me!

We will sing a verse for Rhiannon
Who the Celts had had a handle on
When she took their kilted men on
And she's good enough for me!

We all will worship Bridget
'Cause She never will be frigit
She takes giants, men and midgits
And She's good enough for me!

It was good enough for Morrigan
Morrigan with tricks is brimmin'
Do you groove on S&M-in'?
Then she's just the one for you!

Gareth