BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?

Subject: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 10:09 AM

Well, admittedly I'm not a Republican though being of a more Libertarian mindset, I more often vote that way.

Here's the deal though.

In the congressional race for my district we have two absolutely despicable advertising campaigns going.

The Democrat is trying to connect the Republican to Enron (and corporate scandal) by the suggestion that because he is the CEO of his company, he is guilty of something.

The Republican is claimimg that the Democrat has "raided the Social Security Trust Fund" -- a dubious charge as there ain't such a beast -- and is tying her voting record to Hilary Clinton -- even though the last time this Democrat was in Washinton, Hillary was a First Lady.

The short of it -- this go-roung I'm holding MY guy's feet to the fire. I know that both are liars running dishonorable campaigns, but I only have one no vote to give -- not voting for my guy.

Are any of you equally disgusted with YOUR guy?

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: 53
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 10:11 AM

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 10:24 AM

Yes, again. In at least one race, I'm reduced to voting in the way that will lean the overall balance of power in Washington the way I prefer. You might consider that if both are such losers.

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 10:27 AM

Yes, most of the time. Seems like everybody in Wyo is sooooooo proud that "our own" Dick Cheney is the Veep..........everybody but me, that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 10:49 AM

I guess I need to clarify the question.

If you normally vote Dem would you not vote for a Dem if his/her campaign offended you.

If you normally vote Rep would you not vote for a Rep if his/her campaign offended you.

Are you as offended by a commentator from your side of the debate who uses illogical reasoning to arrive at his conclusions as you would be by a commentator on the other side of the debate who uses illogical arguementation.

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 10:51 AM

Again, yes, all the time. I don't think I have ever voted a "straight ticket".

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 11:08 AM

Running neck-and-neck for governor of the State of California are two members of the Opportunist Party. Gray Davis calls himself a Democrat, but he does the will of whoever makes the biggest contribution. His opponent, Bill Simon, is an Enron Republican.

In the primary election, Davis spent a lot of money to ensure that Simon defeated former Los Angeles Mayor Richard Riordan, who would have been a formidable and honorable opponent.

I rarely vote for third-party candidates because it seems to be just throwing my vote away. This time, though, I'm sorely tempted.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 11:19 AM

I'm with Sorch and you, John. I think I am registered as a Democrat, or possibly even as a Libertarian, but I wouldn't vote the party line against plain evidence that I would be voting for a fool or a villain. 'Course they hardly run any other kinda beast anymore...


A

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: Mudlark
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 11:37 AM

Yes, that's the problem. For years now I've been basically voting against the worst choice, as there's no best choice to be had. I guess my bottom line criteria, when all else fails, is ecology/conservation record. I vote against those who dont support alternative energy, preservation of wild places. I also vote against those who dont support right to choose and limiting population growth, as without that I think we're all doomed anyway. People like religious conservative Dr. W.
David Hager, Bush's choice to head the FDA's Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee, scare the bejesus out of me.

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 12:39 PM

That's the California election in a nutshell, Joe. (Except that as a former resident of LA during his term, I have a much less glowing opinion of Riordan's leadership abilities.)

Davis is an popportunist, but he's also a reasonably competant governor when he isn't changing his spots. Simon is so slimey I have a hard time imagining even die-hard Republicans voting FOR him, although they might vote AGAINST Davis.

None of the 3rd party candidates are vote-worthy either, darn it. if Riordan had run as an independant, there might be an election worth having...

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 12:49 PM

We have a one party state here in Kansas. It has been that way since away back in 1861 when KS was admitted to the Union. I guess we just don't like to be confused by choices. So, like they said in the Old Country "Daut moak nuscht ut." Translation: "It makes no difference."

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 01:46 PM

Actually, I'm two-thirds happy with my current congresspeople. During the recent donnybrook over Bush's war resolution, Patty Murray (D-Washington State) delivered a strong speech on the matter, then voted against the resolution, which is what I wanted her to do. Jim McDermott, from my congressional district, traveled to Iraq recently and has been very outspoken in his opposition to Bush's foreign policy. Maria Cantwell (D-Washington State), my other senator, voted in favor of the resolution.

I will vote for Patty Murray and Jim McDermott again when the time comes. I will be watching Maria Cantwell very carefully from here on to see how she behaves and to determine what motivates her. She can still redeem herself as far as I am concerned, but if it came down to just her vote on the resolution, the only way I would vote for her again would be if the candidate opposing her was totally unacceptable.

I have learned to be very politically aware within recent years, and I am now keeping track of the actions and voting records of all the candidates and incumbents for offices I'm called on to vote for—including judges, who most people just ignore. My one vote doesn't have that much effect on national elections, but proportionately it becomes more important in local elections. Since most national politicians start out locally, I can have at least some small influence on the more distant future. Think globally. Act locally.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: DougR
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 01:53 PM

My incumbant representatives are not facing very strong opposition, and I'm happy with them anyway. The most controversial race in Arizona, I believe, is for governor. I don't particularly like either one and am considering voting for Nader.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 01:56 PM

Ah! But addressing John's question: The manner in which a particular candidate conducts his or her campaign has a very strong effect on the way I vote. I think the type of campaign gives a pretty good indication of a candidate's character. If he or she will lie or fight dirty to get into office, you can be pretty sure they'll act the same way once they get in.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 12:07 AM

Well, no. "My guy" is Paul Wellstone. His opponent is trying to make a big deal out of the fact that Paul once promised he'd limit himself to 2 terms, and now he's changed his mind and is running for a third term. Actually, I think it was a silly promise in the first place. I have never been in favor of term limits. (Term limits always appeal to the party that is out of power, it seems, and then they change their minds when they get in power.) It's doubly ironic that the people who are criticizing him for breaking his promise are those who never would have voted for him even if he'd kept his promise.

I guess I'm a "yellow-dog Democrat". Although some Democrats have disappointed me, I've never seriously considered voting for a Republican, and I'd never do anything that would hurt a Democrat's chance to win, such as supporting a third party. If my Senator were a real stinker, I'd hold my nose and vote for him anyway, just to keep the Republicans from winning the majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 02:16 AM

Are you joshin' us, Dougie?

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 02:40 AM

Trouble is, voting AGAINST someone at an election is dangerous. If you have only 2 or 3 parties running, then it's a fair bet that it will work.

It's even more dangerous not voting at all though.


If you have several smaller 'fringe' parties, it is entirely possible that you may end up with something worse because not enough people voted for the original 'bad' candidates. There is one London Borough that learned this to its cost when from no-where, the British National Front suddenly became the leading party. You can't tell me that an area that has 68% voting population from other countries, really wanted the National Front to make their decisions and represent them at Parliament....? It happened because there was only a 30% turnout of voting population.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 09:25 PM

A number of polls taken in the last few years show that an overwhelming majority of Americans are fed up with the the two political parties that we have. Many fell that it's not worth the trouble to vote when your choice is between Tweedle-thief and Tweedle-gonniff.

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 09:44 PM

To be quite serious, as it is a good question......John, I put a lot of value on what a person says, even if we disagree and I feel he is totally wrong on many points. Is the guy honest in his belief and is he willing to challenge his own beliefs at times? One of our Senators became a "friend" of sorts when we both were working on some children's issues. Although we disagree on most points and I hate the way he often votes, I know him to be honest in holding the belief and a man who will fight with you and not be afraid to lose! So, regardless of anything else, he has my vote. I try to look at others the same way......the belief is less important than the honesty or lack thereof behind it.

Then again, what do I know? I come from a state where one of the largest cities elected Jerry Springer as mayor.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: toadfrog
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 10:32 PM

Joe Offer: You have characterized the California election pretty accurately. I only voted for a Republican once in my life; I voted for a Mr. B..... for Controller. Seems his opponent was a turkey named Gray Davis. And I would have been very much tempted to vote for Reardon, had he run. But the threat of having Mr. Simon as governor is a bit much for me. And not only would I be throwing my vote away, voting for Peter Camejo, I'm not sure but what he would be the greater of three evils. So I will hold my nose and vote for Davis.

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: NicoleC
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 10:32 PM

Great point, 'spaw. There have been a few folks I would have voted for (if they had run) not because I agreed with them (I didn't) but because they were honest and you could on on them living up to their principles. I can't stand a politician that says they'll do one thing during a campaign and then does another when it's expedient.

If you aren't going to live up to your own principles, what principles WILL you uphold?

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: GUEST,Bobert
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 10:40 PM

Being a Green Party memeber I rarely get to vote for anyone from my party because there aren't any Greeen Party candidates on the ballot. I find myself abstaining from lots of the choices, voting for various referendum and an occasional democrat, but very occasional...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: John Hardly
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 10:57 PM

dreamer's scenario:

politicians run on what they believe (not what they think will get them elected). When it turns out that events show the rightness or wrongness of the candidate elected, the next election is better served (and so is the public, and the democratic system)...and so on.

No need for bipartisanship, at least in this regard. You guys don't want to have to weed through your guy's Republican sounding bullshit any more than I want to weed through my guy's Democrat sounding bullshit -- we know they do it thinking they'll pick up non-thinking stragglers they think populate the middle.

And somehow allow each side to characterize its own beliefs rather than having them characterized by the opposing side.

What a concept. Politicians who don't dodge their ideology. Politicians with real ideas. It sounds frighteningly close to honesty.

dream over.

...and yeah, catspaw, maybe if I knew a few of these guys personally I wouldn't be so cynical......



...naw. ;^)

Subject: RE: BS: Your own guys feet to the fire?
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 02:05 AM

You have to vote your economic interest, and ignore the issues(and the rhetoric)--The "issues' tend to be irrelevant anyway, and the things that really affect us are not discussed at all during the elections--They are traded away in the still flourishing backrooms--