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Origin: Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti...(names of notes)

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Allan C. 08 Jan 03 - 03:41 PM
MMario 08 Jan 03 - 03:48 PM
artbrooks 08 Jan 03 - 04:09 PM
Uncle_DaveO 08 Jan 03 - 04:11 PM
MMario 08 Jan 03 - 04:16 PM
MMario 08 Jan 03 - 04:17 PM
Joe Offer 08 Jan 03 - 04:23 PM
Allan C. 08 Jan 03 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,Q 08 Jan 03 - 05:19 PM
Allan C. 08 Jan 03 - 05:25 PM
Burke 08 Jan 03 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,Q 08 Jan 03 - 06:46 PM
RangerSteve 08 Jan 03 - 09:33 PM
Richie 08 Jan 03 - 10:24 PM
GUEST,KC 15 Jun 09 - 11:59 AM
GUEST 29 Sep 10 - 05:13 AM
GUEST,Ghirotondo 29 Sep 10 - 06:09 AM
Mr Happy 29 Sep 10 - 06:16 AM
SteveMansfield 29 Sep 10 - 07:42 AM
Burke 29 Sep 10 - 09:20 PM
open mike 29 Sep 10 - 11:10 PM
GUEST,siam 16 Oct 10 - 05:21 AM
Artful Codger 16 Oct 10 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,Me 16 Oct 11 - 11:15 AM
Joe_F 16 Oct 11 - 04:55 PM
MGM·Lion 17 Oct 11 - 01:02 AM
GUEST,JTT 17 Oct 11 - 05:04 AM
GUEST,Ioanes 24 Oct 11 - 09:45 PM
GUEST,leeneia 25 Oct 11 - 10:13 AM
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Subject: Do Re Mi Origin
From: Allan C.
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 03:41 PM

Long ago my music teacher explained the origin of our names for the notes. He then recited some lines in Italian. The first syllables of each line comprised the Do Re Mi, etc. we know so well. Does anybody know the lines he would have been reciting?


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Subject: RE: Do Re Mi Origin
From: MMario
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 03:48 PM

This page click explains some of it.

it explains at least re mi fa sol la

where ti and do come from I'm not sure.


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Subject: RE: Do Re Mi Origin
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 04:09 PM

Do, I use to buy some beer
Re, the guy who sells the beer...


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Subject: RE: Do Re Mi Origin
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 04:11 PM

Many (almost 50) years ago, studying classical guitar from a Mr. Belson (originally Bellisoni; he was Italian) in St. Paul, Minnesota, for singing-accompaniment purposes, he had me singing in fixed-Do format, Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Si Do. It seems that "Ti" is for the movable Do system that many of us learned in grade school, but "Si" is for fixed Do.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Do Re Mi Origin
From: MMario
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 04:16 PM

John Curwen was an English congregational minister and he had taught himself to read music from a book by Sarah Glover that
introduced to him the idea of Tonic Sol-fa. Religious and social ideals of equality motivated him to create and promulgate an entire
method of teaching based on this idea, for he believed that music should be the inheritance of all classes and ages of people. At
considerable expense to himself, he published his own writings, which included a journal entitled Tonic Sol-fa Reporter and Magazine
of Vocal Music for the People. After 1864 he resigned his ministry to devote most of his time to what had become a true movement in
mass music education. He and his son John Spencer Curwen incorporated a publishing firm, J. Curwen & Sons, eventually adding Tonic
Sol-Fa Agency to its name. It became an important publisher of educational music. In 1869 John Curwen established the Tonic Sol-Fa
College, which just over 100 years later established the Curwen Institute in London. Though Curwen did not truly invent Tonic Sol-fa, he developed a distinct method of applying it in music education, one that included both rhythm and pitch. William McNaught , a devoted
student of the Tonic Sol-fa Method, is said by his son to have thought of it as "musicianship of the mind with the voice as its instrument."

You may remember that middle 'c' is named 'sol fa ut' in medieval music theory (see above) and that the 'c' one octave above 'middle c'
is named 'sol fa'. It is from these two syllables 'sol' and 'fa' that the system derives its name and explains the presence of the hyphen
between 'sol' and 'fa'. The essence of the Curwen system is that the key-note (or tonic) is called 'doh'. It is followed, in an ascending major scale, by the notes 'ray', 'me', 'fah', 'soh', 'lah', 'te' before returning to 'doh', one octave higher than the first 'doh'. 'doh' is moveable - in other words, it depends on the key in which the piece of music is set, which note will be 'doh'. In fact, 'doh' is always the key-note.
This contrasts with the continental system where 'doh' is immoveable and represents the note 'c' whatever the key in which the piece is
set.


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Subject: RE: Do Re Mi Origin
From: MMario
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 04:17 PM

the above from http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory1.htm#shapenote


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Subject: RE: Do Re Mi Origin
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 04:23 PM

I posted this in another thread where it's hard to find, so I thought I'd include it here.
-Joe Offer-
Thread #4835   Message #29620
Posted By: Joe Offer
29-May-98 - 04:30 AM
Thread Name: Do re mi (Rodgers & Hammerstein)
Subject: Lyr/Tune Add: UT QUEANT LAXIS

Norton's New College Encyclopedia of Music says solmization is the use of syllables to designate the notes of the hexachord. Those adopted by Guido d'Arezzo were used in medieval theory as a system of reference and as a means of ear-training. He derived them from a plainsong hymn to St. John the Baptist, in which the first syllable of each line was sung to a note of the hexachord in rising succession (C D E F G A):

UT QUEANT LAXIS
Ut que-ant la-xis
(C D F DE D)
Re-so-na-re fi-bris
(D E C D E E)
Mi-ra ges-to-rum
(E GE D E DE)
Fa-mu-li tu o-rum
(F G A G FDD)
Sol--ve pol-lu-ti
(G AEG F G D)
La-bi-i re-a-tum. Sanc-te Jo-han-nes.
(A G A F GAA G FD C E D)

translation:
O for your spirit, holy John, to chasten
Lips sin-polluted, fettered tongues to loosen;
So by your children might your deeds of wonder
Meetly be chanted.

Lo! a swift herald, from the skies descending,
Bears to your father promise of your greatness;
How he shall name you, what your future story,
Duly revealing.

Scarcely believing message so transcendent,
Him for a season power of speech forsaketh,
Till, at your wondrous birth, again returneth,
Voice to the voiceless.

You, in your mother's womb all darkly cradled,
Knew your great Monarch, biding in His chamber,
Whence the two parents, through their offspring's merits,
Mysteries uttered.

Praise to the Father, to the Son begotten,
And to the Spirit, equal power possessing,
One God whose glory, through the lapse of ages,
Ever resounding.


I cheated and copied a translation I found
-Joe Offer-

ABC format:

X:1
T:Ut Queant Laxis
M:4/4
Q:1/4=120
K:C
C2D2F2D2|E2D2D2E2|C2D2E2E2|E2G2E2D2|E2D2E2F2|
G2A2G2F2|D2D2G2A2|E2G2F2G2|D2A2G2A2|F2G2A2A2|
G2F2D2C2|E2D7/4||


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Subject: RE: Do Re Mi Origin
From: Allan C.
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 04:32 PM

Wow, Joe, those guys really knew how to cram a lot of meaning into just a few syllables ;-}
    Duh...I forgot to say that the Latin was just the first stanza.
    -Joe, sheepishly-


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Subject: RE: Do Re Mi Origin
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 05:19 PM

Several Renaissance masses were written based on the system described by Joe.
The best known is the polyphonic masterpiece, Missa La sol fa re mi, by Josquin des Prés, based on the solmisation notes which these syllables represent on the medieval scale. This was published in 1502.
In a note to a cd containing this mass by the Tallis Scholars, Peter Phillips wrote "According to Giareanus (1547), the notes originated in mimicry of an unknown potentate who used to send away importunate suitors with the words 'Lascia fare mi' (Leave it to me)." This may not be true.


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Subject: RE: Do Re Mi Origin
From: Allan C.
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 05:25 PM

This is all just terrific! Thanks, y'all!


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Subject: RE: Do Re Mi Origin
From: Burke
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 05:54 PM

Somewhere along the line UT became DO. I don't think I've seen an account for the change.

D'Arezzo's system did not have either si or ti. You'd probably need a course in music history to understand why he didn't feel it was needed. That long treatise MMario linked to in the 2nd message is at least in part an explanation of how they jumped hexacords & adjusted the syllables to cover a bigger range & got the leading tone.

The English reduced the 6 syllables to 4 (fa-sol-la-mi) as a outgrowth of the hexachord switching. There's a short explanation of that here. The 4 syllable system is what the colonists brought with them from England. It's still with us in the old Shape note books such as the Sacred Harp & Southern Harmony.

When 'si' was added as a solution to all the hexacord switching is not clear to me. Si seems to have been switced to ti by the Tonic sol-fa people. Tonic sol-fa uses just the first letter of the syllable so sol & si could be confused. Switching it to 'ti' gives all the syllables a unique first letter.

The 7 syllables gradually came to dominate use in the US during the course of the nineteenth century.


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Subject: RE: Do Re Mi Origin
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 06:46 PM

Some of this depends on your country's tradition. In France and Italy, ABCDEFG = La Si Ut Re Mi Fa Sol. In Italy Ut is generally do. Germany also uses ABCDEFG.
(Also confusin'- B minor = German h-moll or b-moll; French si mineur, etc.)
Ut was the first note in Guido's hexachords. Showed up in print in 1325 (OED). Do first appeared in 1754, in Dict. Arts and Sciences, "A note of the Italian scale, corresponding to ut of the common gamut."
--"Used [in place of ut] to denote the first note (key note) of the scale (movable Do); or in some cases the note C, the key-note of the natural scale (fixed Do)."
"Said to have been the invention of G. B. Doni, who died 1669" (Groves 1881, in OED).

Si, in Chamber's Cyc., 1728. "In music, a seventh note, added in these 60 years, by one le Maire, to the Six ancient notes." (OED)
From Sancti Ioannis- 1850, Helmore in Plainsong. (OED)
1875, in Staines and Barrett, Dict. of Musical Terms "Here was a sa for the seventh note of the scale...but it was not employed. In later use, in order to mark another semitone by the final I (as in mi), sa was turned into si." (OED). Take your pick.


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Subject: RE: Do Re Mi Origin
From: RangerSteve
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 09:33 PM

They changed UT to Do so the Trapp family would have something to sing in the Sound of Music. Otherwise, there'd be about 5 minutes in the show where they would just stand around looking foolish.


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Subject: RE: Do Re Mi Origin
From: Richie
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 10:24 PM

I use fixed-DO. C is always DO, D is always RE, and so on. The flats and sharps are variants of the syllables.(D is RE, D# is Ri, D-flat is RA, etc).

I learned this system while working with Aaron Shearer at NCSA on his classic guitar books. I teach the same system today to my classic guitar students.

-Richie


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Subject: RE: Do Re Mi Origin
From: GUEST,KC
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 11:59 AM

How do you pronunce SOL?? SOH or SOL?? or is it correct to say both sol or soh??


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Subject: RE: Origin: Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti...(names of notes)
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:13 AM

My music teacher gave the class a simple song
Do a deer a female deer
Re a drop of golden sun
Mi my name i call myself
fa a long long way to run
so a needle pulling thread
la a note to follow so
ti an a piece of German bread..that will bring us back to
Do


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Subject: RE: Origin: Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti...(names of notes)
From: GUEST,Ghirotondo
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:09 AM

According to Wikipedia Italy, "...the actual name is attributed to Giovanni Battista Doni, which inttroduced it in sec XVII; New name took easily place around all Europe since it appeared more sweet and singable."
I apologise for the poor translation but my English is quite "rusty".

Here the original link in italian.

Lanfranco


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Subject: RE: Origin: Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti...(names of notes)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:16 AM

'German bread'??


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Subject: RE: Origin: Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti...(names of notes)
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:42 AM

Doh, a beer, a Mexican beer
Ray, a man who buys me beer
Me, the man Ray buys beer for
Far, a long way to the bar ...
So, I'll have another beer
La, la la la la la laaaa
Tea? no thanks, I'll have a beer
And that brings us back to
Doh

No idea of the origins of that I'm afraid ...


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Subject: RE: Origin: Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti...(names of notes)
From: Burke
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 09:20 PM

"a piece of German bread" must be a mondegreen by people who don't know about drinking tea with jam and bread.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti...(names of notes)
From: open mike
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 11:10 PM

yes it's "tea a drink with jam and bread"

Doe, a deer is by Richard Rogers

this system of naming notes is called solfege
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solfege

In the early 1900's Zoltan Kodaly, a noted Hungarian composer and
educator started impacting music education. Kodaly was appalled at
the musical reading skills in the most prestigious music school in Hungary. Many students also had not been taught their own folksongs. Kodaly felt it was his mission to give back the musical heritage to raise musical literacy for all the people of Hungary not just trained musicians.
Along with fellow Hungarian composer Bela Bartok, he collected over 1000 children's songs and developed a sequential method for music educators. In this method he used solfa hand signs (do, re, mi), rhythm solfa, (ta, ti-ti) activity and movement to music. The
Kodaly method is used internationally and has stood the test of time.

but now i am curious about the connection to Shape Note Singing or
Sacred HARP..this is where this music is sung
http://fasola.org/singings/


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Subject: RE: Origin: Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti...(names of notes)
From: GUEST,siam
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 05:21 AM

i want to train some kids and youth a bout basic tonic sol fa . i need the theory note for them. what is . dot/fullstops and what call coma in sol fa? like this / bar : betting like detail i want to know? who can i will get


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Subject: RE: Origin: Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti...(names of notes)
From: Artful Codger
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 03:48 PM

Many shape note books begin with with an exposition of all the musical notation used. You can find a number of them scanned online--some of them are linked at fasola.org.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti...(names of notes)
From: GUEST,Me
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 11:15 AM

did not help to much


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Subject: RE: Origin: Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti...(names of notes)
From: Joe_F
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 04:55 PM

In school we learned long technical names for the notes of the (relative) scale: tonic, supertonic, mediant, subdominant, dominant, submediant, leading tone, octave. It would take quite a while to spell out the tune of, say, the Irish Washerwoman in that scheme, especially if one tried to keep a straight face.

It is noteworthy that in the usual major scale the notes that are followed by a semitone interval (mi, ti) are the ones whose names end in i. Accordingly, one may name the chromatic scale do di re ri me fa fi sol si la li ti do, thereby accommodating songs with accidentals.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti...(names of notes)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 01:02 AM

Doe, a deer is by Richard Rogers---
.,,.,.
No it isn't, it's by Oscar Hammerstein II.

Richard Rodgers simply wrote the accompanying la-la-las in The Sound Of Music...

~M~


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Subject: RE: Origin: Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti...(names of notes)
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 05:04 AM

Wiki on tonic sol-fa says "Tonic sol-fa (or Tonic sol-fah) is a pedagogical technique for teaching sight-singing, invented by Sarah Ann Glover (1785–1867) of Norwich, England and popularised by John Curwen who adapted it from a number of earlier musical systems."


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Subject: RE: Origin: Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti...(names of notes)
From: GUEST,Ioanes
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 09:45 PM

My music teacher from Montreal repeated from his own university teachers the opinion that 'ti' was switched from 'si' to avoid confusion with 'C' which sounds the same.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti...(names of notes)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 10:13 AM

Sounds right, Joanes.

I think 'ut' was changed to 'do' because 'do' is easier to hear.


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