Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?

Subject: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Peterr
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 11:25 AM

This started in What is a ballad? thread.
A friend said he'd heard that AL Lloyd reckoned that there were not any English (as opposed to Scottish or Irish) ballads that had supernatural or ghostly happenings in them. It can become a self-fulfilling prophecy in that any examples given someone will say 'Ah, but that's actually not English in origin'. Anyone got any ideas? It was suggested in another thread that the House Carpenter qualified, but the Demon Ghost version of that is in Scottish dialect.
I havn't been able to find two other suggestions, 'Sailor's Tragedy' or 'Flame of Fire', latter apparently collected by CJS in 1906 from Betsy Pike of Somerton. Perhaps I'll put out another request on that one.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Ian
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 11:48 AM

Does death and the lady count?

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Peterr
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 11:52 AM

Since I put this up, I've found The Dreadful Ghost, plus info from Malcolm Douglas in a thread from Jan 2000. Great ballad, now to find a good tune for it.
Any more English ghosties?

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Aidan Crossey
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 11:55 AM

What about The Trampwoman's Tragedy?

I've got a great version by Phil Callery ...

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 12:01 PM

Flying Dutchman, Lowlands, Unquiet Grave.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 01:06 PM

As I said in the other thread, House Carpenter/Demon Lover (Child 243, Roud 14) is English in origin; the fact that it later travelled to Scotland (and extremely widely in the USA) does not disqualify it. Bruce Olson has gone into it in some detail in earlier discussions. Try also The Suffolk Miracle/Holland Handherchief (Child 272, Roud 246), which is an English form of the pan-European Spectre Bridegroom story.

There are plenty more, but I wouldn't count The Trampwoman's Tragedy; it was written by Thomas Hardy, and I guess we're talking about traditional material here. There are hundreds of literary ballad-imitations written by English poets that involve ghosts. Actually, I more than half suspect that Lloyd was pulling someone's leg.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: PeteBoom
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 01:39 PM

Their Moving Father's Grave?

>)

Pete

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: GUEST,Allan S.
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 01:49 PM

Ann Bollin (sp?) With her head tucked underneath her harm. As only Tom Paley could do it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: OurPaul
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 05:30 PM

What about 'The Nightingale'?

As she awoke in a terrible fright
It being the hour of twelve at night
To see his form standing cold and pale
Just as he was drowned on the Nightingale

These words he spake in lamenting cries
In the Bay of Biscay me body lies
To become the pray of the shark and whale
With me drowned shipmates on the Nightingale

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: RolyH
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 05:44 PM

The Cruel Mother.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 05:55 PM

Down by the Greenwood Siding

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 06:06 PM

The Grey Cock, possibly.

Yes, it could be argued that it originated elsewhere, but the idea of trying to pin-point the origin of widespread folk notions, is likely to be as futile as it is absurd.

Ed

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 06:33 PM

Peterr:

Mick Pearce sings "The Sailor's Tragedy" / "Flame of Fire".

Kitty

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there an
From: Susan of DT
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 08:31 PM

Sweet William's Ghost (child 77)
Ghost of Willie-o
King Henry (child 32)
Knight's Ghost (child 265)
Lady Margaret (child 74)
Wife of Usher's Well (child 79)

Mary's Dream
Lyke Wake Dirge
Lady of Skin and Bone
Unfortunate Miss Bailey
Ghost of Tom
My Good Man

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: GUEST,Ely
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:02 PM

the Suffolk Miracle (a friend of mine and I tried to come up with a melody that would fit this, since my Child books have no music, but we couldn't and ended up rewriting the thing completely).

I've got a Bob Beers record with a song called "Black-Haired Lass" that has a ghost in it; I can't promise it's British but it sure seems to come from either British or early American tradition.

I learned "Ghost of John [Tom]" in kindergarten. In the US, there's a [new] bluegrass song called "Bringing Mary Home", which is a phantom hitchhiker tale.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:54 PM

King Henry has been found in Scotland only, and that but once; though much the same story is told in the English The Marriage of Sir Gawain, albeit without a ghost.

Ghost of Willie-O is an Ulster broadside song, though modelled to an extent on Sweet William's Ghost (Child 77), which is Scottish.

The Knight's Ghost is Scottish.

Lady Margaret qualifies.

The Wife of Usher's Well may be Scottish originally, but might be given the benefit of the doubt in the circumstances.

The Lyke Wake Dirge is certainly English.

Skin and Bone has to qualify, though it's found everywhere else as well, in one form or another.

Mary's Dream seems to have started out as a Scottish parlour song. It appears in Johnson's Scots Musical Museum (I, no.38, 1787) for instance.

Unfortunate Miss Bailey qualifies, though it isn't very old and the author is known.

Ghost of Tom I know nothing at all about.

My Good Man As above, unless you mean the Good Old Man/Kind Old Husband group, which involves death but no ghost that I can think of.

We could certainly include The Unquiet Grave/Cold Blows the Wind (Child 78).

There are plenty of tunes for The Suffolk Miracle, which has been found not only in England but in Scotland, Ireland, the USA and Canada. There are three sets with tunes in the DT; one from Nova Scotia, one from North Carolina, and one from a Ewan MacColl record with no traditional source credited.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 10:37 PM

Someone mentioned Ann Bolyn (With 'er 'ead tucked underneath 'er arm").   That's not a ballad, so it doesn't count for this discussion.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 11:10 PM

Yup. Music Hall. Include that (or Moving Father's Grave) and you may as well include Elton John's Lady Samantha. They are all perfectly good songs, but not what was asked for. Same goes, as I said earlier, for literary ballad-imitations; however well-made.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 03:46 PM

Guest Ely, do you have the words to Bringing Mary Home?

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 04:30 PM

Already posted several times in the Forum. The search engine will find them for you.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: toadfrog
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 05:42 PM

I believe Tam Pierce?

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Mudlark
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 06:22 PM

What about

Polly Vaughn (for she'd her apron wrapped around her...)
Swans they swim so bonny-o

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 07:12 PM

Mrs. Ravoon?

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 10:11 PM

Polly/Molly/Vaughan/Bawn, though found in tradition in England, is of Irish origin and doesn't qualify.

Mrs Ravoon is a modern piece, also disqualified.

Come on, you lot. There are plenty more, but you do have to understand that the question asked was about English traditional ballads; ones that aren't originally Scottish or Irish: Peterr's original post explains it perfectly clearly. Modern songs, however good they may be, are irrelevant.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: rich-joy
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 12:30 AM

maybe "The Flandyke Shore" ???

Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: pavane
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 05:57 AM

A search of the Bodley collection for songs with "ghost" in the title or first line turned up 9 pages of matches, but mostly music hall or composed songs. Sweet William's Ghost looks trad but probably Scottish. However, the tune is also given so it may be useful to someone.

I don't have time to check them all though.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 07:37 AM

Peterr, the Dreadful Ghost has been recorded by sometime Mudcatter Debra Cowan as well as the wonderful duo, John Roberts and Tony Barrand on their cd, A Present from the Gentlemen
(one of them occasionally visits the 'Cat as well!)

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 07:40 AM

Oops! Wrong Roberts/Barrand cd. The one with Dreadful Ghost is Dark Ships in the Forest.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 07:46 AM

well it just ghost to show!

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Cas
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 12:06 PM

she moves through the fair.. surely if your dead love came in..to a room you would have seen a ghost?
cheers!

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 12:30 PM

Being far more erudite than the rest of you pseudo folkies, what about Widdecombe Fair ?? Its definately English and the horse dies.
'BG'

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 12:53 PM

Cas, "She Moves Through The Fair" is Irish. The words were written by Padraic Colum (1881-1972).

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 12:55 PM

Yes, that works. She Moved Through the Fair doesn't, though. It's Irish, an early 20th century re-write by a known author of earlier traditional material, and originally with no supernatural content whatever; the ghost only wandered into it by accident when John McCormack recorded an arrangement and got the words wrong. Margaret Barry learnt it off his record and pretty well everybody else got it from her, one way or another. The rest is history.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 07:26 PM

Totaly off topic but I mentioned my comments to Pip about "She Moves Through The Fair". Seems in her little book of poetery, one she writes things in she likes, she has one from Padraic Colum:

Oh to have a little house!
To own the hearth and stool and all!
The heaped-up sods upon the fire,
The pile of turf against the wall!

To have a clock with weights and chains,
And pendulum swinging up and down!
A dresser filled with shining delph,
Speckled with white and blue and brown!

I could be busy all the day
Cleaning and sweeping hearth and floor,
And fixing on their shelf again
My white and blue and speckled store!

I could be quiet there at night
Beside the fire and by myself,
Sure of a bed and loath to leave
The ticking clock and the shining delph!

Och! But I'm weary of mist and dark,
And roads where there's never a house nor bush,
And tired I am of bog and road,
And the crying wind and the lonesome hush!

And I am praying to God on high,
And I am praying night and day
For a little house – a house of my own –
Out of the wind and rain's way.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: IanC
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 04:51 AM

How abou tGiles Scroggins' Ghost.

:-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: GUEST,Eliza C
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 09:43 AM

What about the Cruel Ships's Carpenter? Isn't that the one where her enraged ghost turns up on board the ship he's trying to escape on and rips him in to little shredded pieces?
x ec

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 09:49 AM

Giles Scroggins' Ghost exhibits part of the mechanism that has killed the currency of ghost songs and tales: The urge to rationalize it all away--"It was all a dream."

Reminds me of the movie of The Wizard of Oz, in which the scriptwriters found it "necessary" to deny the reality of Baum's story, as it had been set out in the book(s), by making it "all a dream".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 09:54 AM

From Everymans Book Of Brittish Ballads , Ed Roy Palmer,

Promising marriage, a carpenter seducces a woman. When she becomes pregnant, he murders her, and joins the navy as a ship's carpenter. After the crew see the ghosts of the woman and her baby, the carpenter confesses to the murder, and 'raving distracted dies'...

The last lines of the final verse in this version go.

"She ripped and tore him, she tore him in three,"
"Because that he had murdered her baby and three".

If I get time, I will try to add this version to folkinfo tommorrow.

Jon

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 10:34 AM

Yes; I mentioned The Cruel Ship's Carpenter in the thread where Peterr originally asked his question. See  Lyr Add: Pretty Polly (#311)  for links to material here and elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 10:58 AM

Have added the version of the Ship's Carpenter I have here

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there an
From: Susan of DT
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 06:24 PM

Malcolm - "A haunt can't haunt a haunt, my good old man..." They aren't ghosts yet, but they are talking about it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: English ghost ballads - are there any?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 07:36 PM

I read My Good Old Man a little differently. He's alive, but she's a ghost already.

Dave Oesterreich