Standardised bagpipe tuning?

Subject: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 May 03 - 07:20 AM

I know little of the technicalities of bagpipe manufacture, but there are obviously plenty of Mudcatters who know this sort of stuff. I presume there are plenty of old sets of Scottish warpipes in museums, are they at all standardised? I am particularly thinking of the song "The hundred pipers", with Bonnie Prince Chalie marching into Carlisle in 1745 with a hundred pipers playing. What would this have actually sounded like?

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: Bassic
Date: 19 May 03 - 07:26 AM

LOUD!!!!!

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: smallpiper
Date: 19 May 03 - 08:00 AM

The answer is yes and no. They would have all been playing in a standard tuning but that is not the same tuning as modern Bagpipes . Over the years the pitch of the pipes has been gradually raised - the higher the pitch the more "exciting" the sound.

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 May 03 - 08:34 AM

Smallpiper, how do you know they would have been playing in standardised tuning? I mean, are there a selection of pipes still in existence from that era, and if so are they all exactly the same size?

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 19 May 03 - 12:00 PM

you mean they are in tune?????

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 May 03 - 04:58 PM

I am not a pipe person, but I do know that the pitches were lower back then( true for classical instruments, as well). There are instruments from those times of all kinds, that are still around, and even still playable. Classical double reed players(the pipes are a double reed instrument) tell me that the placement and pitch for holes was different then, as well. My guess would be that in those times, there was no universal standard(pipes are a modal instrument, and the scales wouldn't have conformed to the classical standard temperament then, anyway) but that the pipe makers for each band of pipers would build all their pipes to a the same standard.

This is only a guess, of course, and I am curious to know what our pipe experts might say about this. Since this is question relates to both Scottish history and Military history, it should be documented somewhere in tedious and exacting detail, complete with a roster of all the pipers, the names of the pipe makers, the dates that the chanters were made, etc. And with luck, it's all posted in cyberspace--

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: smallpiper
Date: 19 May 03 - 05:21 PM

M.Ted is right, but also don't forget that pipes are tunable. Its a bit daft to think that any musician wouldn't tune his/her instrument inorder to play with other musicans so why shouldn't all 100 pipers have tuned their pipes inorder to play together? Makers would have learned from each other and so even if the pipes do differ there is no reason why they couldn't be tuned the same. Even modern pipes are like that different makers different chanters same tuning.

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 May 03 - 05:31 PM

OK I know that all instruemnts have a tuning facility, but this tends to involve minor adjustments either side of the natural pitch of the instruments according to temperature conditions etc etc. That will not solve the problems if the chanters are half an inch difference in length or whatever. This must be documented somewhere, I just would like to know if pipes of that period from different parts of Scotland wre made to a standard pattern. Basically, could those 100 pipers have played together with pleasure, or would it have agony(however thrilling)?

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: fiddler
Date: 19 May 03 - 05:32 PM

Generally when I was learning with a pipe band it was tune to each other - there are not many instruments with the 'clout' to paly with the full warpipe. Unless you have a big PA!!!

The tuning these days is around the A / Bflat region which is also difficult for many GD based payers whcih is a h*ll of a lot of folk!!!

Teh pipes are a wild instrument that we rarely hear in teh right setting - Drifting etherially accross lonely glens (valleys) and lochs (lakes) - patronising aren't I!!!

Take the chance if you can you can really appreciate them then!!!

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: smallpiper
Date: 19 May 03 - 05:34 PM

Well my belief is that they could. Length and diamater play a huge part in the tuning of the chanters and as in modern pipes they differ from maker to maker but they remain (largely) in tune with each other.

However I shall make enquiries from a modern pipe maker and will report back.

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 19 May 03 - 05:47 PM

Modern chanters play from low G to high A, an octave and one, with C and D sharp. High G can be 'in the cracks'.
Jim McLean

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: smallpiper
Date: 19 May 03 - 06:12 PM

and a flattened 7th

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 03 - 07:51 PM

That proves what I've always heard - - length and diameter DO matter!!!

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 20 May 03 - 04:45 AM

I'm sorry I made a typing error, I should have said C and F are sharp!

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: weepiper
Date: 20 May 03 - 07:38 AM

And the modern scale is nominal, as the chanter 'A' is actually B flat and a bit... not even concert B-flat, at least the pipe band pipes aren't. There are makers now who will produce pipes in concert B-flat or concert A which makes playing with other instruments a whole lot more straightforward.
There is some argument about whether A440 was ever the standard pitch, as there are existing chanters from late 18th-early 19th century which are definitely in B-flat. But pitch has definitely been creeping up - the explanation given is that the sharper pitch gives a brighter sound which makes the grace notes etc sound crisper. Personally I really like the sound of highland pipes in A but a lot of pipers don't.

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 20 May 03 - 07:51 AM

This is an interesting question. Surprisingly few 18th century Highland pipes have survived, mostly due to the clearances and the actions of the "wee Free" Church which actively tried to suppress dancing and therefore piping right up to the beginning of the last century. Any Pipes that were found were burned.
By the 18th century most Bagpipes were manufactured by specialist makers in large urban centres like Edinburgh, using the latest techniques. I think it's reasonable to think that these instruments would have been standard for a given maker.
As to pitch and scale, reeds play a surprisingly large role in overall pitch and the intonation of specific notes within the compass. As far as I know, no 18th c Chanter reeds have survived, so it's quit difficult to know for certain what the pitch and Scale were.
I think as stated above overall pitch would have been lower than today, giving the pipes a more mellow tone.
Reconstructing the Scale might seem very difficult, but fortunately Highland (and many other) Bagpipes depend on the acoustic properties of Chanter and drone combination to produce stability, and this implies certain notes for the scale.
Essentially the Chanter and Drones are not acting independently, but are acoustically coupled. This coupling comes about between the Chanter notes and the harmonics of the Drones.
The drones harmonics are hole number multiples of the fundamental frequency. The Bass drone is 2 Octaves below the Chanter Key-note, so assuming a pitch of A=440Hz, the Drone fundamental will be 110Hz. The harmonic series this produces is

110 220 330 440 550 660 770 880 990 1100 1210 1320 1430 1540 1650

For the Tenor drones 1 octave below the Chanter key-note

220 440 880 1100 1320 1540 1760 1980 and so on.

If the Chanter scale is chosen for maximum consonance, and therefore acoustic coupling the following results.

Note, Freq. ratio, ham 1 Hz, Harm 2 Hz, harm 3 Hz
G       7/8      385          770       1210
A       1/1      440          880       1320
B       9/8      495          990       1430
C#      5/4      550          1100       1540
D      11/8      605          1210       1650
E       3/2      660          1320       1760
F#    13/8      715          1430       1870
g       7/4      770          1540       1980
a       2/1      880          1760       2200

What's interesting is that the frequency ratios of the Chanter could be written as bellow
7/8, 8/8, 9/8, 10/8, 11/8, 12/8, 13/8, 14/8, 16/8

Which is an almost complete "Otonality Scale" in
Harry Partch's
This scale produces the maximum overlap of Chanter and Drone harmonics leading to maximum stability.
This is not the Scale played by modern Pipers and I am not saying that it is necessarily the scale used in the 18th century.
The modern scale however does have most of the scale notes the same, apart from.
1/ D 11/8 which has been converging on a 4/3 perfect fourth interval, which is much, more pleasing to modern ears.
2/ F# 13/8 which is usually 5/3 Perfect major sixth
3/ g 7/4 which is nearer to 18/8

In short if the hundred Pipers had instruments made by one person, or by a small group of makers that new each other then it could have happened, though I'm a bit sceptical.
Pipes were solo instruments in the Highlands at this time and Pipe Bands only came in after the "45" when the highland regiments were raised as the cannon fodder of the British Army.

All the Best PP

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 03 - 08:04 AM

I have it on reasonably good authority that modern pipe bands stay in tune with each other by the use of bits of Sellotape (US translation: Scotch tape) to partly cover the holes, because after you have tweaked the reed to get your chanter the same average pitch as another that's the only way to get each note adjusted independently(-ish) of the others.

(source, postings by Jack Campin on news:uk.music.folk)

Anahata

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: GUEST,Tuner
Date: 20 May 03 - 08:17 AM

It's even more complicated than that

every set has to be tuned to the individual playing

The moisture in the breath & strength of blow are all key factors

So two players will get different results from the same instrument

The pipe bands will have a special tuner, who will deal with all the pipes to produce the overall band sound

There are only a handful in the UK

It's probably certain that Bonny would have had one for his pipers

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 20 May 03 - 08:36 AM

Hi Anahata
Yes this is true I use black insulation tape, which does a better job and looks nicer than sellotape.
I'm shore the Pipers of the past would have had some technique for changing the intonation of note, possibly using Beeswax.
Some Eastern European Pipes have a special tool for adjusting the beeswax in the holes, attached by a piece of string to the Chanter.

All the best PP

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 May 03 - 01:55 PM

Interesting stuff about the pitches, Pied Piper. This stuff ought to be come out when next anyone brings up "modes" to give a practical illustration of what they really are. As per the A440 business, it is worth noting that A440 was not accepted internationally as the concert pitch until 1939. For more information on the fluctuations of the value of A, check The History of Concert Pitch
where you will find more than you wanted to know.

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: ced2
Date: 20 May 03 - 02:21 PM

One place worth visiting is the national bagpipe museum in Morpeth, a little to the north of Newcastle just off the A1. Its one of the smallest museums in the UK but it's superb with the sounds of instruments being fed to the visitor through headphones as the visitor looks at each set of pipes. And by the way which scottish pipes? Highland? Small Pipes, Boarder Half Longs?

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: smallpiper
Date: 20 May 03 - 02:38 PM

I thinkthey are talking about Highland as the small pipes (whilst an ancient instrument) have been reinvented and the modern version is exactly that, modern.

Subject: RE: Standardised bagpipe tuning?
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 May 03 - 03:22 PM

yes I am definitely talking of the Highland warpipes. I am just querying what happened when pipers from all over the highlands and islands(legend suggests a hundred of them) came together at Carlisle in 1745. Before, as someone pointed out earler) the days of organised highland regiment pipe bands. Did the piper on Skye have an instrument capable of playing with the guy from Inverness? This is the question.    Fiddlers and harps have no problem at big get-togethers, their instruments are completely tunable. But pipes arent so flexible, they surely need to be quite accurately the same size to be compatible. So, were they compatible?

Subject: Lyr Add: 100 PIPERS
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 May 03 - 03:41 PM

I have searched my histories and have found no mention of the plucky band of pipers mentioned in the attached lyrics. I was lucky to to find anything in my meager library on the surrender of Carlisle at all--It turns out that it was the Duke of Perth who rode into Carlisle when the inhabitants surrendered, and the mayor and his attendants rode to Brampton, where they presented the keys to the city to BPC, who was there, with the greater part of his army. Even if there were a hundred pipers with BPC, only a portion would have gone on to Carlisle. As far as I have found, no "100 Pipers", no white horse, and no Bonnie Prince Charlie.


100 PIPERS

Wi' a hundred pipers, a' a', an' a',
Wi' a hundred pipers, a' a', an' a',
We'll up an' gie them a blaw, a blaw
Wi' a hundred pipers, a' a', an' a'.
O it's owre the border awa', awa'
It's owre the border awa', awa',
We'll on an' we'll march to Carlisle ha'
Wi' its yetts, its castle an' a', an a'.

cho: Wi' a hundred pipers, a' a', an' a',
Wi' a hundred pipers, a' a', an' a',
We'll up an' gie them a blaw, a blaw
Wi' a hundred pipers, a' a', an' a'.

Oh! our sodger lads looked braw, looked braw,
Wi' their tartan kilts an' a', an' a',
Wi' their bonnets an' feathers an' glitt'rin' gear,
An' pibrochs sounding loud and clear.
Will they a' return to their ain dear glen?
Will they a' return oor Heilan' men?
Second sichted Sandy looked fu' wae.
An' mithers grat when they march'd away.

cho:

Oh! wha' is foremos o' a', o' a',
Oh wha' is foremost o' a', o' a',
Bonnie Charlie the King o' us a', hurrah!
Wi' his hundred pipers an' a', an ' a'.
His bonnet and feathers he's waving high,
His prancing steed maist seems to fly,
The nor' win' plays wi' his curly hair,
While the pipers play wi'an unco flare.