How do I sell my songs ?

Subject: How do I sell my songs ?
From: GUEST,New to music business
Date: 21 May 03 - 11:25 AM

I have some original professionaly recorded songs that I think may be of interest to big recording artists. Can anyone here tell me how to go about getting them there?

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 May 03 - 11:38 AM

Do 'em right, and make 'em good.

Art

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 03 - 11:48 AM

mail them to people who you think would like them...in care of their recording label....but dont expect an answer soon...they are busy folks...

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: GUEST,Egal
Date: 21 May 03 - 11:51 AM

Make sure you copywrite them before sending them though.

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: GUEST,Gene Burton
Date: 21 May 03 - 02:41 PM

Personally I think anyone with a musical gift whose main concern is how to make money out of it, is abusing that gift.

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 03 - 02:53 PM

There speaks the guy with a good day job.

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: GUEST,Foe
Date: 21 May 03 - 03:02 PM

I sat in on a songwriting course once given by Al Kasha ("There's Got To Be A Morning After") and he made the following points.

1. Publishers are the ones who submit songs to producers who are producing records with specific artists.

2. So - you're looking for a publishing contract

3. If you want to sell a song to Linda Rohnstadt, get someone to do a demo that sounds like Linda Rohnstadt. Publisher/producers usually can't make a connection with what you submit and the artist.

4. Look at Billboard mag and notice which songs have entered the charts with a bullet. Write a bunch of songs that are similar. By the time that song has reached the top ten, all the producers will be looking for similar songs and you'll have a bunch to sell.

5. Schmooze with people in the music business. I had producers tell me that if ten demos are in their hands and they are all equally good and they know one of the song writers, that's the one they'll use.

6. Don't submit songs to an artist who writes his own songs. He's not going to do yours - he writes his own and therefore gets writers royalties when his records get played or sold.

7. Write a hit, record it yourself, get it played on the air and everyone will want you songs because you write hits (i.e.$$$$$$$)

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 May 03 - 03:06 PM

Give them away to friends who have a name as recording artists, to get a name, yourself. The people who like what you do may come to you for other material.

~S~

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: Ed.
Date: 21 May 03 - 03:20 PM

Give them away to friends who have a name as recording artists

Mmmm, splendid advice, Susan...

There is an exceptionally remote possibility that s/he doesn't actually have 'recording artists' in thier circle of friends....

You talk an awful lot of shit

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 21 May 03 - 03:36 PM

now let me see -I'm not in the music industry and I know at least four artists wih recording contracts. The lesson here Ed is assume nothing and if you are going to - don't be so rude about it.

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: dwditty
Date: 21 May 03 - 04:03 PM

Go to www.taxi.com It is what they do...match songwriters with people looking for them.

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: Ed.
Date: 21 May 03 - 06:02 PM

You're right Linda, I shouldn't have been so rude (if that's what I was)

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 May 03 - 06:09 PM

IF?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: Ed.
Date: 21 May 03 - 06:12 PM

Yes, 'IF'

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 03 - 06:21 PM

Go to this thread http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=39935#568985

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 May 03 - 06:29 PM

IF you are really not sure, Ed, no point labouring the point any further, let it stand as it is.

Meanwhile, to the point: GUEST, Foe has made some very valuable points; I use No 7 myself, as well as WYSIWYG's method, and I find they both pay dividents. But GUEST, Gene Burton made the most telling point.

Because if you write music in order to sell it, you start with the wrong premise and sooner or later you will fall into any one of several traps: Writing to a recipe; or trying to copy styles; or allowing yourself to be pressurised. Great songwriters, just a few mind, can overcome these traps or learn to live with them. But me, I just do it for fun and because I want to leave behind something for people to remember me by. Hearing someone else sing one of my songs is payment enough. And if someone was to record it and pay me some royalties, all the better - but that is not what drives me.

Most likely I will never make a living out of my songwriting/singing. But I am making my life a lot more fun!

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 May 03 - 07:06 PM

My advice was based on the advice and experience of a well-known fulltime touring and recording Mudcatter and others who find their new songs that way-- on the recordings of friends. It's common practice to grant recording rights on a song, to a friend, royalty-free, in order to help that friend as well as gain visibility for oneself. Selling recording rights to someone who will net you good longterm royalties is not a bad bet.

And yes, Ed, you WERE rude. Whatever the intent may have been, the resulting communication was rude. BTW, those of us who can't read minds usually notice the results, not the intent.

~Susan

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: Frankham
Date: 21 May 03 - 07:54 PM

Guest New to the Business

It's best if you can make an appointment with one or two established publishers that can help you. This is more difficult today than it ever was but not impossible. The interview would probably go like this: "We like your songs but we don't have any outlet for them now. Keep writing and make another appointment in a couple of months." Then you're at least in the ballpark. Follow up.

If you want to write songs for others, it would be good to study the kind of songs they have recorded and write something that sounds like what they would do but not exactly what they've done before. Even if you fail to connect with that particular artist you may have written a good song. Sometimes you write a song for one artist and it winds up working for another.

If you know an established artist, this may or may not help. Sometimes the connection can backfire. If it comes through a publisher, it won't. If you know a record producer, that's helpful if they have a "track record".

It's a good practice to write for the "market" by tailoring or casting your songs for others. There's nothing at all wrong with this. Irving Berlin did it for years. So did Johnny Mercer. Bachrach and David started this way in the Brill Building years ago writing hits for Gene Pitney and others.

I think if you really want to be successful at this you have to become a writing machine. Berlin's track record was one hit out of fifty and he wrote more songs than most people can remember.

Let everyone and anyone you can without being obnoxious hear your songs and comment on them. Take the comments lightly and if you have a good piece of advice, then that's worth everything. Mostly you won't get that except from people who are in the "business" and have done this before. This includes established songwriters and publishers. Start to get to know the licensing organizations such as ASCAP and BMI and know what they offer. Get books on the music business such as the Shemel/Krasilovsky book as a general roadmap.

Songwriting classes or workshops are a mixed bag. ASCAP or BMI may offer some that would be more valuable than others. Sometimes the class can be "dead wrong" about a song.

As far as writing for the market or not, if the act of writing is pleasing to you, learn everything you can about the craft. Much of the information you may throw away but in the process you stimulate those creative juices.

Writing hit songs is as they say "a crapshoot". But the odds are greater if you have a lot in your trunk.


Writing songs, though, ultimately is the reward in itself. It's the excitement of a song coming to life that you can believe in and treasure. Many hit songs are like this contrary to public opinion about how they're "thrown together". If it becomes successful, there has to be something of value in it. Maybe not profound or earth-shaking but something that people will accept and that acceptance is worth something. It means that someone has had an emotional reaction to what you have done...it's given happiness, a tear, makes you wanna' dance....something.

I never had the tenacity to be a songwriter though I am in ASCAP. (Sometimes a royalty comes in). I admire good songwriters immensely. Once in a while I write a tune for my own satisfaction but not for the market any more. But hearing a song you've written on the radio or on a record...it's a special feeling.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 03 - 09:20 PM

Speaking of rude !!!!- WYSIWYG Susan!!!!

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 22 May 03 - 02:01 AM

WYSIWIG Susan has a very valid point. I am a touring/recording performer and I get a lot of my songs from other people. I record them and pay royalties unless the writer has given me written permission to do otherwise. Go out to see performers in concerts, at festivals, folk clubs, etc; introduce yourself and pitch your songs. Ususally a CD demo or a cassette is good. Don't say, "I've written a song that's perfect for you.." because a lot of times they're NOT perfect for us.
But I always listen. Don't be offended if the performer doesn't want to do your songs. It doesn't mean they're bad, it just means that the performer doesn't think it's right for him/her.
Just keep trying.

Seamus

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: Hovering Bob
Date: 22 May 03 - 04:24 AM

Very simply, write good ones and they'll sell themselves.
Of course all that has been said about getting them heard is valid/vital. But remember, there are thousands of us wannabees out there, some with talent, many with without, all pestering performers/agents.
As El Greko said, hearing someone else do one of your songs is magic / priceless and as much 'payment' as most will ever see. I have had a few songs recorded by other people, surprisingly not the two or three for which I am best known, but have not seen a penny in royalties from that source. At one time I used to get payments via live performances of my songs but that was never more than a few pounds. I'll not be retiring just yet, but then I haven't written that earth shattering hit, which is where I came in. . . .

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: Pat Cooksey
Date: 22 May 03 - 05:15 AM

Never assume that you because you have copywrighted your songs your
rights are secure, the music industry is huge and complex, and unless
you have the means to enforce your copywright legally, you could be
in for a rude awakening should you produce a hit.
When a song you have written becomes a hit, many others will want a share of the action, publishers, sub- publishers, song pluggers, et.
al.
Many recording artists are merticulous in tracing writers of songs they have recorded and paying royalties, Seamus Kennedy is one
example, many others are not.
It is vital to have a good publisher to safeguard you work, songwriting is a great gift, and yes it is nice to hear others
performing your songs, but be carefull.

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: GUEST,Foe
Date: 22 May 03 - 08:04 AM

In Los Angeles there was - I don't know if it still exists - a Songwriters Showcase, which was run by Len Chandler and John Brahney. Every three months or so they would let you audition with them for the showcase and if you had two songs they thought were saleable they would schedule you for the showcase. I think Washington DC area now has a similar showcase. It was a way to expose your songs.

I was auditioning once when their secretay called into the room and said, "The ASCAP checks just came in. Len, you made 37 cents. I guess you're a better songwriter than John this month."

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: Willie-O
Date: 22 May 03 - 08:26 AM

So, why do you think they "may" be of interest to Celine Dion or whoever?   

I think you're realistically looking at a progression:

1. performing the songs yourself--try to get into those key venues (often small ones) that will get you some buzz--and releasing your CD. You'll find out what songs people really respond to, and they may not be the ones you think are best.
   
2. going with Susan's suggestion: take the ones that seem appropriate and offer them to accessible recording artists. Build up a track record that way. Celine won't be listening to your CD but she might hear, say, something by an established Montreal club singer.
   
3. then, if you have some songs covered by others and a good-sized catalogue of available material--Frankham is right, volume matters--then you have a shot at the publishing deal, which positions you to be pitched to La Dion. My friend Lynn Miles got such a publishing deal years ago (an actual salaried job by the way, you can make a decent living from such a deal even before it makes the publisher any money), and her first chore was to spend several days sitting across a desk from her rep playing every song she'd ever written and could remember--several hundred of them.
   
   Good luck, there aren't any shortcuts.   
   
   Willie-O

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: GUEST,New to Music Business
Date: 22 May 03 - 11:32 AM

I am very impressed with all the help I got here. How nice of you to give me your time, and thoughts. Sorry for any friction I may have started. My Goodness! Even Famous Seamus Kennedy had some advice for me. I have seen his show, and I was very impressed, what a talented nut. Also a friend of Lynn Miles (I love & sing her tune Unravel, always giving her credit of course)Thank her for me Willie-O!
I have one song in particular that people always tell me is hit material. A love song that I have been asked many times to play it at peoples (often strangers to me) weddings. So I may be looking at "One Hit Wonder" status (still higher than No Hit Never)
I'm hoping that someday you will be sitting a sombody's wedding and you will hear my tune and say "Oh No! not this again"
Any more idea's?                         Thanks again!

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 May 03 - 12:23 PM

Dream. And write-write-write. And sing. And publish a songbook. And record a CD or two or more. And send copies to people. And solicit reviews. And sing some more, and keep writing meanwhile. But most of all, dream; it will keep you going on the tough days.

Good luck, mate. And do come back and tell us how things are progressing. Become a Mudcat member and keep in touch.

But don't forget to dream.

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 22 May 03 - 12:44 PM

I don't think it's abusing a gift to want to make some money off of a viably good song you've created any more than it is to get paid for playing live- I mean, if the sole reason you wrote that song was to make money, that's one thing, but there are scores of good songs that folkies collect royalties from on album cuts or whatever that are just plain good songs, y'know? I was just listening to Richard Shindell singing reunion hill... I can't imagine that, while it didn't make him rich, it hurt his bank account to have that song covered by Joan Baez, for instance.

The important thing, it would seem to me, is to get the songs out there, in anyone's hands you can. The best song in the world won't sell itself if nobody hears it- give people your discs after you see their shows, give them to folks at the music stores, enter songwriting competitions, network... check out a copy of the performing songwriter for ideas on this on a regular basis. There are also a lot of books and some classes/workshops available on the subject- and track down people who have done what you want, much as you are doing here, and ask their advice (in a polite fashion, of course.) I've been mildly surprised sometimes just how approachable and helpful a lot of people really can be.

And above all, if you believe in yourself and your ability and your songs, at some point it becomes more about the creation of a good song than writing to formula or carving out a hit, and THAT will probably be the greatest, if not most lucrative, reward.

Good luck!

-jim

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: GUEST,Gene Burton
Date: 22 May 03 - 01:33 PM

RE: the post just after mine (been busy last 24hrs)- Actually I'm unemployed and skint, so there! I've put out 2 CDs now, self financed, and just give out copies for free when and wherever I play to anybody who wants one...it's left me virtually penniless but nothing gives me more pleasure than to act out of love in sharing my gift with others; to me that's what music (+ folk music in particular) should be all about. Anybody else do the same?

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 May 03 - 02:19 PM

Guest NTMB,

I think the main thing is to be opportunistic but true-hearted, a friend as well as looking out for the bottom line as well as the best for all concerned, and to keep networking as wide as possible but in close relationships to the extent you can.... all of these are tall orders, and in juxtaposition they become a little harder still. But a good song is a good song-- so you can't keep them out of people's ears unless you become a total hermit.

Don't worry about the friction-- the lovely thing about MudSpats between members is that we have a handy private messaging system where we can clear things up, as occurred in this case. Happens quite often! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 22 May 03 - 04:29 PM

Guest NTMB, join up, PM me here, and I'll give you my address. Send me a demo with your wedding song, and I'll give it a listen. If it's not right for me, I'll pass it on to other recording musicians I know.
Make sure you've copyrighted it, and that your address, e-mail and phone number are included. Good Luck.

Seamus

WIZZY - all better. Nice!

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 23 May 03 - 04:39 AM

Now and then I stomp away from Mudcat muttering because of what I've encountered on some thread or other.
Most happily, when I look in again I find a fine thread like this - an informed and mostly wise and helpful discussion on a topic I could hardly expect to find anywhere else. Yes there will be songwriters discussion groups around, but the accumulated knowledge represented here and love of song makes Mudcat shine.
Now, re the topic. I had a UK Top Twenty hit in 1960. My first song, a frank imitation of a Woody Guthrie talking blues that went its own odd way. The friend who performed it got it on the B side of another TB, and the reviewers preferred my song.
I never wrote another song for seven years.
Then another song was liked by a performing friend. He sang it around a lot, never recorded it.
Then I started writing a fair amount. One was chosen by yet another old pal, who learned it to the wrong tune, and taught that to many women singers. It is very popular indeed. No recordings but a bob or two comes in for live performances.
Now comes the money earning part. I sold and sold again a song to Scotland's biggest children's show. After a year they reluctantly decided to learn it. It has been a massive hit for them and me, and they have used about 20 more of my songs. But stopped calling for songs a few years ago. No special reason, just that times changed. Now I go out to schools at good money and write songs jointly with kids - and sometimes with folk in their 80s. I get paid to write songs on the baord. Then we record them together. We now have a couple of big community songwriting projects in Scotland, in part though my approach.
There's more than one way to use your songmaking talent. Don't just think of the recording business.
Enough, already.

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 May 03 - 04:59 AM

Keep trying, and have fun is my advice. I've been paid modest sums over the years, custom-writing songs for theatrical productions.they weren't too bad, but didn't carry on in any independent life outside of the show they were written for(they tended to be pretty specific). So to give an accurate figure for the amount I've made in royalties from other people recording my songs, I'll just check my annual accounts for the last forty years.....
    Right, done that, the answere appears to be Zero. However: once upon a time I got off the ferry in Roscoff, Brittany, and went into a bar(I'd never been there before). And planning in that bar was a tape of a tune I'd written, recorded by someone else. Bugger the royalties, I say: that memory keeps me warm. And it's memories like that you need, when the money's run out and youve burnt all your guitars in the stove.

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: GUEST,silverfish
Date: 23 May 03 - 08:47 AM

I have to agree with el greko. There are a few people who can imitate others song styles, sound, guitar licks etc. but it's just that - imitation. I write songs because I have to - what they say means something and resonates with me. When somebody says to me they've enjoyed my songs it's a great kick. As for money/royalties - I guess I'll always be a happy pauper. I wish the very best of luck and satisfaction to all those who open their souls and lay them on the line for other musicians (and the public) to enjoy.

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 23 May 03 - 09:37 AM

Well, I know one of my proudest moments was when Seamus Kennedy contacted me...to ask if he coudl perform one of my pieces at a Christmas concert or two...well I had to contact the fire department to scrape me off the floor and shrink my head back down to normal size....first time I have ever been paid for any of my work...and it was the great Seamus Kennedy who did it...though I would have let him do it for free... ;) BG

Now if only i could sell/lend some of my other works... ;)

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: shakespake
Date: 23 May 03 - 02:25 PM

make a name for yerself

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: GUEST,James H.
Date: 28 May 03 - 01:14 PM

I think it has a lot to do with where you live! If there is a public radio channel in your town there is a chance they may play it for you. That would help you perk some interest.It would have to be professionally performed & recorded though.

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: Julie B
Date: 28 May 03 - 01:34 PM

So exactly how do you 'copyright' a song in the UK?
Julie

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: Willie-O
Date: 28 May 03 - 01:38 PM

Ewen, that's interesting that someone made your song a hit by putting the wrong tune on it.

Reminds me of a story I heard Ron Hynes, the composer of "Sonny's Dream", tell last week. Seems he gave an early version of the song to Hamish Imlach, whose publisher suggested it needed a more emphatic ending, so Hamish added a verse and recorded the amended song on a major label.

However, Ron was horrified when he heard the recording, because Hamish had killed off Ron's own grandmother in the final verse. Since she was alive and well in Trepassey Newfoundland, Ron didn't want her to hear the recording, and fired off a cease and desist order to Warner Brothers publishing. To which they replied "We've sold 400,000 units in the first month, would you rather go to court or go to the bank?" He chose the bank...

And Guest NTMB, here's a site I get periodic spam from: http://www.songquarters.com/ which purports to do what you are looking for--put you in touch with major artists looking for material.

Luck...
W-O

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: Willie-O
Date: 28 May 03 - 01:46 PM

... but I should point out that Songquarters is a big ripoff. They charge a lot of money ($225 US for a six-month subscription) and all they give you for it is names and contact info for "major artists"--those among the world's top 500 based on sales--who are looking for material--which ones are looking is what they claim to know. There is no guarantee that these artists are looking for unsolicited material like yours, or that anyone will listen to it let alone buy it.

W-O

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: Frankham
Date: 28 May 03 - 04:59 PM

IMHO don't try to handle the publishing yourself if it takes off. Either sign with an active and legitimate publisher or if you can, make an administration deal with them. A good publisher can collect the proper royalties for you. Decide which licensing organization you want to monitor airplay if you get to that point. Don't sell your publishing rights to any producer unless they have a great track record. Don't make a deal with any recording studio, either. Only publishers who have proven track record and are reliable pillars of the business. Their status is easy to check out. There will be those who advise you to try to do publishing yourself. If you are not in that business, it would be like being your own lawyer in a court case.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 29 May 03 - 06:00 AM

Good version of the Sonny's Dream story, don't take this version as gospel.

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: musicmick
Date: 30 May 03 - 03:03 AM

As a long time toiler in the recording industry and as a CD reviewer, I have often been asked how to succede as a songwriter. There is, of course, no magic formula. Nowadays, so many performers are writing their own material which makes it even more dificult for the songwriter to sell his/her product. But the situation is not hopeless.
I suggest that the new songwriter should get as many performers as possible to perform his work. Oh, it would be best if known recording artists would accept the songs but even unknown singers may become known and, if they have been singing your song, they may well record it. I am planning a CD this year and, while I prefer traditional songs, I will be including at least one "folk" song that I recently heard someone sing. By the way, most recording artists will not accept unsolicited material. They have been bitten by too many lawsuits. If it doesn't come from a recognised publisher, it is not going to be heard. I've had four songs recorded but I was working in a NYC studio and I took advantage of the networking available.
Incidently, I have no songs for Seamus Kennedy but I have a few limericks that would embarass a sailor.

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 30 May 03 - 02:04 PM

Musicmic, when I record my bawdy ballads album, you'll be hearing from me. Hope to see you soon.

Seamus

Subject: RE: How do I sell my songs ?
From: musicmick
Date: 30 May 03 - 10:35 PM

Seamus Kennedy doing a bawdy songs CD? Why the man is a pure as the driven slush. The only off color thing he has ever done was to dye his beard. He reminds me of my ex-wife, about whom I wrote, "She wouldn't say "come" with a drop on her gum".
Let me know next time you're in town.

             Mike