Ballad Tom Pierce

Subject: Balled Tom Pierce
From: Brian Morrison
Date: 23 Aug 98 - 05:48 AM

Does anyone know anything of the origins, time scale,etc', of the west of england balled Tom Pierce. ( Widdicombe Fair),

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: Pam Mouton
Date: 24 Aug 98 - 07:15 AM

Brian - I don't know the origins of it, but have you tried "folkworks" on the internet? There are lots of links and you may find some information on it there.

All the best

Pam

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: Brian
Date: 24 Aug 98 - 06:53 PM

Pam, Many thanks, will try.

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: BSeed
Date: 25 Aug 98 - 02:27 AM

Brian, also try under Tam Pierce. That's the way I saw it spelled. --seed

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: Brian
Date: 25 Aug 98 - 01:17 PM

To BSeed Thanks for advice, will try.

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: lingolucky
Date: 25 Aug 98 - 03:21 PM

Tam Pearce was recorded by Burl Ives on his wayfaring Stranger album. LaneGoldsmith

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: Brian
Date: 26 Aug 98 - 04:20 AM

Lingolucky, thanks for your input.

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: Dick Wisan
Date: 27 Aug 98 - 10:14 PM

Tam Pierce on Burl Ives' Wayfaring Stranger album? Not on the original one. Did he re-use the title? He might have. IIRC, it was also the name of his radio program.

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: Bruce O.
Date: 28 Aug 98 - 12:29 AM

Reverend Sabine Baring-Gould collected the song and published it in 'Songs of the West', issued in 4 parts, 1889-92, and in later editions. Cecil Sharp published a version in 'Folk Songs from Somerset', 2nd series, 1905, and in 'Novello's School Songs', 1908.

There is a version from Bedfordshire, "Bedford Fair", in Fred Hamer's 'Garners Gay', 1967.

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From:
Date: 30 Aug 98 - 05:06 AM

I know it by the name 'Widdecombe Fair'.
Roy Palmer says about it in his 'Country Songs':
"Perhaps the best known of all fair songs is Widdecombe Fair, which can be dated from its reference to Uncle Tom Cobleigh, who died in 1794. However, the song is neither confined to Devon, nor did it necessarily originate there. Indeed, its essential feature is neither the fair, nor Uncle Tom Cobleigh and all, but the death of a mare. I believe that this death has a deeper significance as a sort of fertility sacrifice. (Compare The Derby Tup or The Old Horse ...) Such meaning has long since been lost at the conscious level, and almost all that remains is boisterous broad humour." - Susanne

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce (Widicome Fair)
From: Brian M
Date: 30 Aug 98 - 06:18 AM

To Bruce O To Suzanne Thank you for the time and trouble you have taken in helping me research the song. I am most greatful, to you both, and to everyone else who has helped. I now have enough data for my needs. Brian Morrison

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: GUEST,ITam Pierce
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 06:41 PM

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 06:45 PM

Shortest English Folksong:

'Tom Pierce, Tom Pierce, lend me your grey mare'.

'No'.

Thanks, Murph.

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: pavane
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 04:33 PM

What about 'Rambling Sid Rumpo' (Kenneth Williams)'s parody from the BBC radio series 'Round the Horne'? Has anyone transcribed that?

(Scriptwriter Marty Feldman apparently hated folk music, but some his comic parodies have entered the genre)

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 04:53 PM

pavane,

see new thread: 'D'ye ken jim pubes'

cheers

mr h

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: GUEST,Griselda
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 09:35 AM

I realise this thread was started a long time ago but I am very interested in this ballad Widdecombe Fair. I think it relates to many other pre-Christian rites, including fertility rituals such as Hoodening, and stories about a horse-god who lived under ground or under water. I am very keen to hear from anyone who can tell me more about this. There are other 'nursery rhymes' about horses: I had a little pony, I called him Dapple Grey.... and the child's lap-game This is the way the Farmer rides, Gallop, gallop, gallop, gallop....   But can anyone suggest any more please? I am seeking those with a dark undertone such as the second of these examples.

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 10:53 AM

Well, one can still go to Widdecombe Fair, as we did a few years ago, and nose around. There's a prominant monument to Tam Pierce et al, and numerous booths nearby selling tasteful and not so tasteful souvenirs. The village is a short drive from Morganhemstead in Dartmoor. I suppose if you really wanted the true story, you'd have to stay there past dusk. We didn't. Maybe we were wise!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: Abby Sale
Date: 17 May 04 - 06:36 PM

A question has arosen elsewhere as to the words to a local Widdicombe version. It was suggested that the local version includes some bawdy material. It seems likely enough, considering that drink may be taken where the song might be sung.

Something to do with an encounter by Bill Brewer, Jan Stewer, etc with someone named Gwendolyn.

Any knowledge of this?

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 May 04 - 09:16 AM

Abby, might this be the one?

'Farmer looks at young Gwendoline, then looks at young Ned
Such an 'andsome young couple, they ought to be wed
But sorry to say, 'tis impossible of course
'Cos Gwendoline's me daughter and Ned is me 'orse!'

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 May 04 - 10:09 AM

The above verse is from here:

thread.cfm?threadid=39093#553175

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: Abby Sale
Date: 18 May 04 - 02:56 PM

Well, that's a good 'un, thanks, but I don't see how it could be related to the Tam Pierce verses.

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 May 04 - 11:35 AM

Widdecombe is just the best known version as far as I can tell. I have a set of lyrics from Bob Arnold (Cotswold Source singer and Tom Forrest in the Archers) called Stow Fair with a totally different cast
of characters :- Bill Brewer, Jack Steward ,Harry Hawkins ,Hughie Davy ,Harry Hillock , Tom Boulding , Dick Chapman , Ben Paxwayne and
your Uncle Tom Goblin and all

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: Cool Beans
Date: 19 May 04 - 12:01 PM

Ed McCurdy also recorded "Widdecombe Fair.''

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:18 AM

The short version I remember is:
"Tam Pierce, Tam Pierse, lend me your grey mare.."
No! You never returned me bloody lawn mower!

Subject: RE: Balled Tom Pierce
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 04:14 PM

LOL!!

How traditional!