BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act

Subject: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: Alice
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 11:07 AM

There is a petition on the Dean web site regarding the extension of powers of the Patriot Act.

"Today, John Ashcroft begins a national tour promoting an extension of the USA Patriot
                        Act. Sign the petition to stop Ashcroft's erosion of our civil rights. Add your name to the
                        Stop Ashcroft petition, and pass it on to your friends, family, and co-workers. We will
                        deliver your names and your comments to the Attorney General.

                        Follow this link to the petition:

http://www.deanforamerica.com/stopashcroft



                        The petition reads as follows:

                                                To John Ashcroft

                        Stop compromising our freedoms. Stop eroding our basic civil rights. Stop trying to
                        teach our neighbors to spy on each other, and American communities to mistrust each
                        other.

                        I will not stand for your using fear to threaten what it means to be an American.

                        The rule of law and due process are at the heart of the American tradition. There is no
                        contradiction between protecting the country from terrorism and ensuring the protection
                        of our basic civil liberties every step of the way."

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: Janie
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 12:12 PM

Alice,

What is the point of petitioning Ashcroft? It is the Congress that needs to hear our opposition.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 04:27 PM

Thanks, Alice. We signed it. I also signed one at Moveon.org which asks congressional members to pledge to support an independent commission to investigate the "distortion of evidence" which the Resident used to go to war.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 05:08 PM

*thinking about whether I want to sign, or whether I trust Ashcroft with my name*

I tend to agree with Janie, so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: Amos
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 05:43 PM

IF you don't trust Ashcroft with your name, all the more reason to sign!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 05:59 PM

welllllll..ok, then

Dere Mr. Ashcroft, stop yore messin' with my rites...

......sincerely, Buford T. Warfle

(you know, of course, Amos, that your post is quite a logical conundrum for us ex-philosopher types!)

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: GUEST,Concerned
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 06:27 PM

Yeah what you doin about it! I bet you have a ferrarie

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: Amos
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 06:31 PM

What I meant was, Bill, that if things have come to such a pass that you have to worry about whether or not you dare sign your name to an opinion, then it is time to do so in open revolt.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 07:18 PM

*nod*...ok, Amos..ok..I really did get your point..*smile*...I was trying to walk the line between 'serious' and silly Mudcat meanderings.

The problem seems to me to be just HOW to express 'open revolt', and I am not sure that one more name on Dean's petition will make any difference. I'm not sure that 40,000,000 names would affect Ashcroft or Bush! Not having a 'mandate' in the election sure didn't deter them from extreme actions, did it?

Maybe setting myself on fire in front of the Justice Dept? Nawwww...I am needed to beat the drums among the local voters for next years showdown.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 07:21 PM

So let's burn a few effigies, instead!

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 07:29 PM

burn a few bush elite flyer dolls?

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 07:34 PM

*LOL*...at $39 each? You first! I can't afford to be that patriotic!

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: Alice
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 07:40 PM

Comments on the Dean blog regarding this petition, as there was quite a discussion of how we are now living with fear of the government seeing our name on a petition...

"...Am I going to be on the no fly list if I sign? Is the IRS going to come after me every year? But then I thought to myself, that is exactly what they want. For the average American to be fearful of speaking out! ..."

"...three years ago I would have laughed if you'd told me that I'd now be wondering if the government was looking over my shoulder at my personal opinions and choice of reading material. Shows how far we've fallen in a short time."

"...The "Victory Act" is only a victory for John Ashcroft! In addition to stealing away even more freedoms, unconstitutionally I might add, it also removes the end date for the original Patriot Act that was added due to the extreme amount of freedoms that were being taken away. Even in the shadow of 911 I believe that the congress would not have voted to remove so many freedoms in one act - permanently...."

'..."The important thing about America," Will Rodgers once said, "is not that any boy can grow up to be President. It's that any boy can grow up to make fun of the President."
When the President, when members of Congress, support ideas worthy of this nation, I will support them, whether the politician behind the office is labeled Republican or Democrat. When they push ideas contrary to what we are, or for what I feel are partisan political purposes, I will say so. I am an American. It is my right. Even more, it is my responsibility.'


"...,Terror is about creating fear, the Patriot Act and the Victory Act are about achieving security, not about eradicating fear. These legislative pieces create the fear that our founders wished to eradicate... the fear of our own government...."

"...Civil liberties do expose us to danger but the idea that the land of the free is the home of the brave is all about facing danger, for one cannot be free without also being brave..."

"...Stop worrying, I don't give a d*mn if he put me on whatever list he's got. I'm against big parts of the so called "Patriot Act" and whatever future provisions he's got not because I've got something to hide or afraid of them, because I'm an American and their actions are down right unamerican, unconstitutional, unfair, illegal, it's my DUTY to speak up and protect our constitution and our rights garanteed by it. If it means telling him straight to his face what he's doing is wrong and unconstitutional, fine, I have no problem with that..."

Benjamin Franklin once said:
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 10:14 PM

A much more effective way of showing your discontent to those who can actually do something about it is to write to your Congressional representatives, or better yet, go get in their faces while they are in their home districts during the summer recess, and ask them what the hell they were thinking when they voted for the most regressive piece of legislation passed in memory. And then ask them how they would vote today if they had it to do over again.

If they say they would vote the same way, tell them you feel it's time to start working to elect someone with sense enough to do their job RIGHT while under stress and pressure, instead of caving the minute times get tough, and voting for legislative attempts to repeal the Bill of Rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: LadyJean
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 10:57 PM

I signed too, mostly to show that sanctimonious S.O.B. that I wasn't scared of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: Amos
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 11:40 PM

I signed as well, and took advantage of part of the form to tell John Ashcroft what I thought of the Patriot Act. It felt really excellent to exercise the power of communication in the face of such crass infringements.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 11:46 PM

Sorry to piss in your punch, folks, but John Ashcroft doesn't give a fart in a high wind about your opinions on the legislation he promotes or what you think of him personally.

He KNOWS he's right- and that he's doing God's work.

God tells him so- directly.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: Amos
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 11:50 PM

All the more reason to sign the damn thing, Greg...

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: Alice
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 10:26 AM

Over 25,000 have signed the petition so far.

In reading the blog to find the number of petition signatures this morning, I came across this bit of information posted by bloggers regarding science and the Bush administration. It reminds me of the manipulation of intelligence information in order to support the agenda in Iraq.

"CASPER, Wyoming When is science not science? When politics is added to the mix. The Bush administration has manipulated the scientific process and legitimate scientific conclusions for political ends.
.
In the Bush administration, non-science parades as science in the service of political or ideological agendas. Undermining scientific research is a dangerous and short-sighted approach to public policy.

You can read the rst of the article here: http://www.iht.com/articles/106934.html"

--
"Waxman's report is not a partisan rag on the Bush administration. I have noted over the year editorials and letters from scientists how the Bush administration is SELECTIVELY making appointments and disrupting the reserach progress to make the science fit the policy. Scientists are historically not typically politically active (for an assortment of reasons I won't go into for time), so when scientists voice concerns about freedom of thought in research, an alarm bell is being rung. In addition to the Waxman report, I would like to add that even Chemical & Engineering News, a relatively conservative, pro-industry publication of the American Chemical Society (member for 11 years), published successive reports about the Bush administration's attempt to corrupt the process of scientific investigation.

Here's one from back in March:
http://pubs.acs.org/isubscribe/journals/cen/81/i10/print/8110gov1.html

This is another example of the administrations "faith over facts" approach to issues. I don't believe people realize how deep the roots of deception have gone for this administration."

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: GUEST,Reiver 2
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 12:49 PM

Thanks for the post, Alice. I'd signed the one at MoveOn.org, but as I haven't been entirely sure about Dean up to now (I'm moving closer as Kucinich is pretty much a lost vote... like Nader in 2000), but I'll visit Dean's site and sign this one now. I have a blog site http://news-opinion.blog-city.com that you might find interesting.

Reiver 2

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: Alice
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 01:50 PM

Thanks, Reiver 2, I'll check out your blog. There is an interesting interview of Dean's campaign manager about how the blog has led the campaign in many ways in real time by users posting feedback and ideas for what the campaign should be doing. It is interesting to watch the political campaign be so close to the people.

Interview re blog and campaigning:
Did blogs come to Dean, or did Dean come to blogs?
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/001096.html#more

CLICK HERE

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: Alice
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 01:54 PM

I just love that line of Will Rogers. I'll have to remember that.
Have we had a Will Rogers folklore thread with his quotes?

"The important thing about America," Will Rodgers once said, "is not that any boy can grow up to be President. It's that any boy can grow up to
make fun of the President."

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: Alice
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 05:10 PM

Signature count is over 40,000.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: Alice
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 10:13 PM

The petition will be hand delivered to Ashcroft tomorrow when he is in Des Moines. The signatures are over 40,000, but it would be great to get at least 50,000. If there are people you know who would like to sign, please email the link to them.

Here's the press release about the petition delivery:

Des Moines-Iowans for Dean State Director Jeani Murray announced plans today to deliver tens of thousands of petition signatures to Attorney General John Ashcroft in Des Moines tomorrow where he plans to promote the USA Patriot Act.

"Using a campaign based on fear, Attorney General Ashcroft and the Bush Administration are attempting to erode our civil rights and freedoms," Murray said. "Their rhetoric aimed at dividing our nation is causing a break down in the trust within our communities."

Ashcroft brings his nationwide tour to promote the USA Patriot Act to Des Moines tomorrow. The Dean campaign began circulating an on-line petition to promote awareness of the dangers of Ashcroft's Patriot Act on Monday.

"The only way Democrats can win is if we stand up to the Bush Administration and send a clear message that what they are doing is wrong," Murray said. "This on-line petition with more than 37,000 signatures sends the clear message we need."

Many Americans are deeply troubled about some provisions in the USA Patriot Act, which was enacted in the wake of 9/11 without meaningful debate. The Act gives overly broad investigative and surveillance powers to the government and strips federal courts of their traditional authority to curb abuses of power by the executive branch. Many of the Act's provisions have little or nothing to do with combating terrorism; in fact some had been previously rejected by Congress. Further concerns about the Act:

. allows law enforcement agents to obtain information about an individual from a library, bookstore, bank, telephone company, credit card company, hotel, hospital or university without individualized suspicion and without meaningful judicial review;

. expands the use of "sneak and peak" searches, even in non-terror cases;

. allows the police to collect information about an individual's Internet use without a showing of probable cause;

. allows the government to conduct wiretaps in criminal cases using the looser rules intended for intelligence investigations;

. authorizes the Attorney General to detain immigrants based on a mere certification that there are "reasonable grounds to believe" the immigrant endangers national security.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition against extending Patriot Act
From: Alice
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 12:01 PM

Here is another source of information on the problems with the Patriot Act.

The USA PATRIOT Act is virtually unreadable. For a lawyer's analysis of the act, some related history, and some of the ways it has been used, go here:

http://truthout.com/docs_02/04.02A.JVB.Patriot.htm

quote of introduction:
"This is the first in a six-part series of articles on the USA Patriot Act: "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism."

This Act, passed in response to the September 11th, 2001 terrorist attacks on our country, was passed hastily and in a time of fear. It affects all of us in some very basic and important ways.

Part I of this series states briefly why we should demand the immediate repeal or amendment of the USA Patriot Act.

Part II walks the reader back in time to look at two acts, which were also passed hastily and in a time of fear. The Alien & Sedition Acts of 1798 parallel the USA Patriot Act in many respects, and offer some important warnings.

Part III discusses the recent emergence of troubling evidence of violations of civil rights under the USA Patriot Act, and looks at the disturbing possibility of torture being used.

Parts IV and V look at specific sections of the Act. Part IV covers how the Act mixes criminal law and foreign intelligence work, puts the CIA back in the business of spying on Americans, allows law enforcement to enter your home without you knowing it, and can track your emails and internet activity. Part V will discuss how the Act punishes some people for engaging in innocent First Amendment associational activity, violates other civil rights of immigrants, uses secret evidence, curbs judicial oversight, and invades financial and student records.

Part VI discusses national security concerns, sums up, and closes with a potent exhortation to Americans, made over 200 years ago by Senator Edward Livingston."
Repeal the USA Patriot Act
by Jennifer Van Bergen
t r u t h o u t | April 1, 2002