Folklore: Penny For The Guy?

Subject: Penny For The Guy?
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 06:24 AM

November the 5th "Guy Fawkes Night" I know the history of the Gunpowder Treason Plot. But kids make up an effigy of Guy Fawkes and hang around shop doorways begging for money, presumably to buy fireworks. On the night of the 5th, bonfires are lit and the "Guy" is flung on to the fire and fireworks are set off.
But what I want to know is where does the saying "Penny for the Guy" come from?

Subject: RE: Penny For The Guy?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 06:47 AM

Asking for money has always been a common pastime amongst children and having a 'legitamate' reason encourages the practice. 'Penny for the Guy' is probably the amount they hoped for originally although they wouldn't have got it often but nowadays they would be quite shocked if that was all you gave them. Another saying is 'We come a cob calling for bonfire night' still used in the North and refers to the asking of coal to burn but now again they would be upset if you didn't give them money.

Subject: RE: Penny For The Guy?
From: VIN
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 07:18 AM

'Guy, Guy, Guy, hit im in the eye. Tie im to a lamp-post, then let im die' is wot we 'orrible urchins used to sing.

Subject: RE: Penny For The Guy?
From: Splott Man
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 07:39 AM

VIN
There's a full version of that rhyme/song by Arkie's Toast on the Maypoles to Mistletoe LP. I don't know if it's still available but the show still does the rounds of Sussex each winter.

regards

Subject: RE: Penny For The Guy?
From: VIN
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 07:44 AM

Not familiar with Arkie's Toast (nice name) but will keep me eyes peeled for em. Now wonder where the expression 'keep yer eyes peeled' originally came from.

Subject: RE: Penny For The Guy?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 07:51 AM

Origin of Keep your eyes peeled

Subject: RE: Penny For The Guy?
From: VIN
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 08:26 AM

Ta for that. As Ali O'Brian recently said 'it's a poor day when you learn nowt!'.

Subject: RE: Penny For The Guy?
From: Arnie
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 09:09 AM

In W.Yorkshire, bonfire night is plot night, and as a kid I used to go 'plotting' with my mates, which basically involved scavenging anything wooden to put on the plot - front gates, fences etc...Fireworks were lethal back then - anyone remember 3-2-1 Zero bangers? We used to hold roman candles and throw squibs and jumping jacks. Every year brought the usual crop of burned kids. I suppose it's all more organised and safer these days, but we didn't half have fun!! I haven't seen any kids with guys this year - maybe they're all at home playing with their Playstation 2's or X-boxes. Or maybe they now have e-guys and e-bonfires??

Subject: RE: Penny For The Guy?
From: IanC
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 12:02 PM

Oddly enough, it's still widely practised in London. I got done last year outside St Pancras station.

BTW pennies are the only really long-term coinage Britain has had (they're about 1400 years old). The pound is only a relatively recent innovation.

In the begging context, it doesn't seem to have ever meant an exact amount. "A penny" just means a small amount of coinage in the same way that "a dram" often means a small quantity of liquid.

:-)

Subject: RE: Penny For The Guy?
From: clansfolk
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 12:07 PM

Most likely as said - the penny whistle is purported to have been called that as a penny (1d) was asked for to play a song by buskers (not the price of a tin whistle which always cost more than a Penny - ask Mr Clarke)

I gave a lad outside a shop the other day the penny (new penny) change I had been in the shop - he wasn't impressed!

Subject: RE: Penny For The Guy?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 01:05 PM

Just now seen my first Guy of the season. Until recently, they were going out weeks in advance, and were always puzzled when I told them it was too early; this year it's the right time, so I gave them some change. I can see why the early start, though; the decent fireworks usually seem to be gone well before Bonfire Night. Unfortunately this is often because they have all been let off days or weeks too early by idiots. You can keep cats in for a couple of nights on the trot, but hardly for a whole month.

Subject: RE: Penny For The Guy?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 03:19 PM

Once upon a time, fireworks in England were confined to the weekends around Guy Fawkes night. Now they're used here for all sorts of celebrations and religious festivals, including Diwali and Eid al Fitr. We've just had Diwali, but Ramadan's just started, so there will be more fireworks in a few weeks' time. Then there'll be New Year and the Chinese New Year. I guess multicultural societies are good news for fireworks manufacturers but bad news for cats.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: LadyJean
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 12:37 AM

The next meetup for the Howard Dean campaign is 11/05. We are considering burning the Shrub in effigy, but are fairly certain the owners of the Moose Hall, which we are using, wouldn't approve.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 08:10 PM

Haven't seen a guy for years. Probably because it isn't mentioned on imported American TV shows. Lots of Trick or Treat these days which is entirely an import in the Home Counties, often very menacing by young men in their late teens rather than children.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: cobber
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 11:33 PM

When I grew up in the fifties in England, we always made a guy fawkes. Mov 5th was the only night we had fireworks but in Gosport, where I came from, the naval barracks used to have, by the standards in those days, a massive firewoek display. It was always on the night of the 5th no matter what day it was - even sunday which wass unusual in those days. We had a slight variation on the begging song of
Guy Guy Guy
Poke him in the eye
Put him on the bonfire
And watch him die.
We really were asking for a penny in those days but it was actually worth something then. Chips to feed the family was only 6d and most sweets were 4 for a penny (except bullets which were 8 for a penny)
Traditionally you would display your Guy Fawkes effigy in your billy cart, dragging him around from pitch to pitch to get the best result. I remember making a shilling one year which I thought was a fortune.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: rangeroger
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 01:41 AM

I lived in London from 1959-1962 as the son of a U.S.Navy officer. My brother really loved Guy Fawkes day as his birthday is Nov.5. Kinda neatt to set off fireworks to celebrate his birthday.

My most memorable experience concerning this date happened on a school bus. I went to the American High School in Bushey Park. This is south of London near Teddington. My family lived in Golders Green, which is on the northwest side of London, and about 85 miles from Bushey Park. The U.S. had a contract with a coach line to provide transport to and from school. If I missed the bus I had to take a train.

We had the same driver and monitor/chaperone everyday exceptfor occasional substitutions. We had a substitute drver one time right near Guy Fawkes day.The student passengers talked him into stoppping at a tobbacconist(sp?) where we all bought a bunch of fireworks.The driver bought some also. We were going down a busy high street when the driver lit a jumping jack off his cigarette and threw it down the aisle under a seat. Well that was just the first shot. Somebody threw a banger (firecracker, for the the rest on this side of the pond) which was soon escalated into a full fledged fireworks battle. Inside the bus. I will say that most of the rockets and roman candles were fired out of the windows and the overhead skylights.

The locals on the street didn't think it was funny, but we had a blast. Eventually the coach was so full of smoke that we pulled over, opened all the windows and air vents, got everyone out, and let the smoke and fumes clear.

The bus driver then asked if anyone had anything left and if they did they wre tld not to fire anything else off. We then proceeded to school and acted as if nothing had happened.

rr

For those Brits interested it was Gray Line Tours.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: running.hare
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 05:11 AM

The were a couple of lads with a Guy when I went in to Poole on monday, they mainly seemed to have coppers in there pot, & I gave them a tuppence I had loose in my pocket. They said thank you & Carried on, no harring.

& as to fireworks on busses!!!!!!!!!
about 10 years ago the village Youthclub shed was blown up with a firework, it took the roof off, & none of the present kids can understand why they have a roofless shed that gets used as a urinal! but nowhere to acctually put any stuff.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 06:50 PM

I went to a Catholic school in NE England and while we always had a bonfire for Nov. 5th we were never allowed a Guy as far as I remember. I wonder why that was (wink).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 07:19 PM

The fireworks part of Nov 5th is still big in NZ but the Guy thing seems to have almost died out.
We always had a Guy, often made with a teddy bear, and it was several years (about 6 maybe) before I realised every body wasn't celebrating my birthday too!
It's a great day for a birthday tho'.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 07:44 PM

First guy appeared here in Penkhull, Stoke-on-Trent, (England) outside the shop about a week ago. "Spare a penny for the guy" was the precise phrase used, which I seem to rememmber was the phrase Mayhew recorded in London c 150 years ago.
    Precisely how traditions are passed informally on is not always recorded, so I will note down here exactly what I heard, for the benefit of future researchers. The Guy's minders were two lads of about 8/9, and a girl maybe 5/6. One of the lads I heard shouting to the girl "You stupid twat, ask them for the money as they're walking towards us, MONG!".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 08:00 PM

Guy Fawkes wasn't our thing as Catholics either - but we had Halloween, and the others didn't in those days.

Do they still burn the Pope down in Lewes?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: GUEST,Crystal
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 09:01 AM

In Billericay our local bonfire at the park always used to have a guy. Not sure about now though. Being at university I can't go down for bonfire night any more. Anyway it's all sponsered by Essex FM now, so loads of pop music, "special guests" (eg minor local DJ's and unmemorable Big Brother contestants), and a huge fair with noisy rides and as much junk food as you can eat. Plus a huge fat price. The actual bonfire and fireworks are actually pretty irrelevant now.
It used to be a great display though.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 05:46 PM

Which part of west yorks are you from Arnie? I've not heard of plot night, and they called collecting wood chumping round our way..Yorks customs are diverse though...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 07:23 PM

First time for me - The kids are out actually knocking on doors with a Guy!! So much for sitting outside the shops or the station.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: nutty
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 03:50 AM

As a child I always understood that the "penny" for the guy was reward for having captured Guy Fawkes. There was always an almost ceremonious pitchfork throwing of the guy, to the top of the bonfire, before it was lit. Woe betide the lad/man whose job it was if Guy didn't get to the top on the first throw.
I'm not sure if this was just a custom local to my village or if it was more widespread.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 08:22 AM

In Bradford - (West Riding of Yorkshire - for those not local) we went Chumping for the wood and mattresses which the bonfire was built from. I definitely knew 5th November as Plot Night - how else could you have Plot Toffee - that hard, clear, black, brittle stuff, so unlike any other form of toffee.
And November the 4th was always Mischief Night, when kids went out knocking on doors and running away, hiding the ice-cream advertising board from outside shops in somebody's garden, removing garden gates, and doing stupid things such as pushing bangers through letter boxes. On the other side of the fence, it was not unusual to sit at an upstairs window with a jug full of water to soak anybody who tried any of the former at YOUR house.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: IanC
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 08:51 AM

Just thought I'd say that the catholic "not having a guy" thing isn't entirely universal. My wife's family, who have been catholics in North Yorkshire for generations, always had a guy. In both my family and theirs, it has never been a religious thing. Rather more to do with an attack on what went for democracy in those days.

:-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 10:11 AM

Outside the pub the other day.

Penny for the guy-er "Penny for the Guy, mate?"

Me. "What do you want a penny for the Guy for?"

PFG "Fireworks!"

Me "But you are only about 12. You need to be 18 to buy fireworks."

PFG "Errrrmm, Arrr. I'll give my Dad the money and he will buy them for me!"

Me "But that's illegal. Do you want your Dad to go to prison?"

PFG "No!"

Me. "You can't realy buy fireworks then. What will you use the money for?"

PFG "Errrrr. Mmmmm. Cigarrettes?"

I wandered off shaking my head. At least he could have said booze!!!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 06:51 AM

Here's a health to Guy Fawkes - the only man to ever enter Parliament with honest intentions!Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 08:51 AM

an interesting topic, the most important bit for me as a kid in Barnsley South Yorks was 'bunnywooding' when everything was gathered together, dead trees, old rubber tyres, toilet seats and anything not fastened down. Some of the bonfires were huge and many times the Firebrigade had to be called by parents ~ close proximity to houses in terraced houses where I lived
Some bonfires were ransacked by other gangs of kids and rubbish pinched ~ still important to check what is actually in bonfires before being set alight (premature lighting often happenend on Mischievous night Nov 4th by rival gangs)
Penny for the guy happened early here this year, some concoctions including little lads made up as a guy and pushed in pram!
Fireworks in UK becoming a pest and legislation to curb almost year long usage now underway.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 01:10 PM

Well another Guy Fawkes Day is over and we thoroughly enjoyed it. I didn't see any kids with guys tho', but we didn't have any trick or treaters this year either.
Rather than being a Catholic bashing event, I've always considered that we were completing what they set out to do - set fire to the gunpowder! It happens on the day it was meant to go off, not the day Guy Fawkes was executed in January, and most guy masks have a wicked grin on their face, not the face of a torture victim. Was he expecting to go up with the big bang?
And rather than a religious event, it really was an extreme attempt to remove some politicians (and the King) and people are still trying to do that sort of thing today.
Anyway, I had a great birthday!
Robyn

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 06:19 PM

Hey Padgett! awood near us had the local name 'Bunnywood' though its 'map' name was Pighill wood.but I never heard the term used for chumping! don't you miss those street bonfires though!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 06:27 PM

I haven't seen a guy or any collection for Guy Fawkes'Night in London this year, or for many years. But I'm reminded of Pete Coe's Out of Season song.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 07:31 PM

There was a British import quasi-horror show on TV here in the States which featured Guy Fawkes Day in an episode. But the real plot was around loaves of sweet bread which were given to the children. The boy or girl finding a charm baked in his bread became king or queen of the next year's festival (although virgin sacrifice in this case). In New Orleans for Mardi Gras, a special sweet dough decorated in purple, green,and yellow is baked with a baby charm in it. Anyone recognize the British tradition?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: IanC
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 04:29 AM

Sinsull

It's a 12th night tradition in France.

:-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 05:05 AM

Sinsull - I don't recognise it as anything to do with Bonfire Night, as Plot night is a celebration of just that - the Gunpowder Plot.
The celebrations were based round the Bonfire - gathering wood and other dodgy materials, raising cash to buy fireworks or sweets, gathering as a community (perhaps of a couple of streets) and watching the bonfire. Things have changed over the years, with a Pub now being the location where the "community" bonfire tends to take place.
Other things have also altered with the importing of "Trick or Treat" for Halloween. Once the head of a Guy - effigy burned on top of the bonfire - used to be carved from a hollowed out turnip or swede, with eyes and mouth cut out - the contents probably used to make some stew, so we had some hot food ready to eat when returning to the house (cold and wet) following the bonfire. Now people tend to use a left-over pumpkin head from Halloween.
On the subject of being cold and wet. Most years, bonfire night coincides with weather which is damp, and often cold. At a good bonfire, there was a point where the firewas hot enough to evaporate anything but heavy rain. Within this circle, the ground stayed dry, beyond it the rain landed. If you stand at that point, you slowly roast at the side facing the fire, but on a frosty night, the other side of you is still cold.

Customs I grew up with included Ducking (or bobbing) for Apples - a time of year with a surplus of apples. Toffee Apples - apple on a stick, dipped in hard toffee, and Plot Toffee - made with black treacle - hard and brittle, unlike treacle toffee, which was very chewy.

I suspect that your horror story was concocted from unrelated traditions, possibly even from the Mardi Gras biscuit, then imported to the UK so that they could add a Bonfire for the horror of a cremation/sacrifice as punch line to the story.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: fogie
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 05:50 AM

Geoff the duck- I grew up in Horsforth on the Leeds-Ilkley road, and we all used to go chumpling too, and we used to guard our stacks lying under the wood, with bangers ready in case any other gangs came to pinch our fire. I remember how exciting it was to have a powerful torch, to light up the sky like a searchlight, and how irresposible we were with the fireworks, especially jumping jacks and helicopters, those were the days lord knows how we survived. Also remember mischeivous night, knocking on doors and running away and suchlike.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 06:34 AM

Did you know that Guy Fawkes committed suicide?
He was imprisoned for four months in the Tower during which time he was tortured to extract the names of the other conspirators.
Apparently, he was brought to the gallows and he rose to his feet with the noose around his neck despite having both his ankles broken, and jumped from the gallows thereby hanging himself!

I had the information from listening to the radio.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: Splott Man
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 07:43 AM

Isn't it also true that Parliament hadn't actually sat for over a year when he was caught?
I got an F for O level History, but this seems to stick in my mind.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 01:17 PM

I still remember a poster we had on our school wall ^%&years ago.
It showed the signature of Guido Faukes(sp?) it was a very strong readable signature. It also showed his signature on his confession after months of torture, a squigly disjointed number of faint lines.
Always felt sorry for the poor bastard since that time, can't blame him for jumping.
We used to call it logging when we went looking for wood. You had to leave a guard at your fire though to stop the kids from two streets away stealing your wood. We also dressed, the smallest, kid up in old clothes and pushed him around in a pram one year. All we got was chased away by most people who found out it wasn't a real guy.
JohnB

Subject: RE: Folklore: Penny For The Guy?
From: Penny S.
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 05:56 PM

Kevin, run a search on Lewes Bonfire, and you'll probably find that they do - but the argument is that this is not the current Pope, but the one who was behind the Gunpowder Plot, or at least in post at the time. There are five Bonfire Societies in Lewes, and some members are Catholics: some of them have the custom of burning an effigy of something offensive to Bonfire, and in the News. (This can be got badly wrong, as see the Firle Society in an outlying village.) I've visited a few times in the past (despite the council trying to keep people away) and I've seen Clinton astride a cruise missile powered by Viagra, and a Pokemon character. The Clinton was of the quality of the best political cartoons. I have not seen the Pope effigy - it would be the Cliffe Society which did that, and access to their fireground is by ticket available in advance, to avoid overcrowding. I don't live locally.

Cliffe is the area which includes the Martyrs' Memorial to people burned during the reign of Mary Tudor for denying transubstantiation. They parade with burning crosses, one for each victim, and banners commemorating a certain King William.

Penny

Waiting for the pun