Take care with that song!

Subject: Take care with that song!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 05:25 AM

One of the big strengths of the British folksong club is its willingness to tolerate - embrace, even - all levels of performers; however, this attitude also has a negative side in that it attracts a lot of " casual" performances. By that, I mean, too many people get up and perform songs without giving the song its true respect; for example, I have on occasion been practising a particular song,and spending a lot of time experimenting with different keys and arrangments only to finally decide that I can't do the song justice, whereupon, somebody will step upon the stage and deliver a ill-conceived, "not thought through" version of the same song.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 07:15 AM

And why do so many people 'Do' songs without first checking for accuracy? So often you can hear singers singing Gibberish,obviously having learned a song from a recording, and NOT checked the words they 'werent sure of' before taking the song out.There are so many ways to confirm exactly what the lyrics are these days.
I had this problem with ogles 'All The Fine Young Men', with relation
to names of Battles the aussies were involved in. What I did was use Battle names I was familiar with, and then explain to the audience what I have done with Eric's song, particularly as i am singing to a non Aussie crowd.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: GUEST,Joe Moran
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 01:17 PM

I have a lot of sympathy with Tunesmith's viewpoint. I'm all for giving everyone a chance to do a floor spot, but I do expect that performers have thought about and practised their material.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 02:18 PM

Australians can't find the names of their WW1 operations in Turkey because the geographical names have been changed and can't be found on a modern map (several threads about these locations). Leadfingers approach makes sense in that regard.

In a thread a couple of days ago, someone said that the meaning of a word in a song doesn't matter to the singer ("what, me worry?" syndrome). If you don't know what a song is about, how can you give it meaning? As Leadfingers says, it becomes gibberish.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Snuffy
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 06:54 PM

the Fureys?

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 12:11 AM

I think I get your serious meaning, Snuffy. I'll add a "sacred cow" --the Corries? [ nae meikle "tosher"----]

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Gurney
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 02:19 AM

It doesn't bother me too much when a singer gives what I consider a poor performance. It just makes the other performers look better, it is transient, and it is self-regulating, because they won't keep getting asked to sing if they are rubbish. And people in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, and that won't be me.

What irritates me more is that some people take the same attitude to WRITING their songs, and sometimes they are very good songs, spoiled for me by bad grammer (it has to be very bad) or incongruities like "Did the band play the last post AND CHORUS, did the pipes etc."
I would have sung that song if it was congruous.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Splott Man
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 03:36 AM

While I agree you should make an effort to find the "correct" words, good songs are complex and build a story full of asides and subordinate bits that maybe you don't fully understand in detail, but you get the point of the song as a whole. If you can find a phrase that works for you, why not sing that until the "real" words come along?
Hey, isn't that the folk process?
And, before any of you flame me, read my first phrase again.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 04:02 AM

No flames, Splott Man. As a songwriter, I make the point of telling people who ask to sing my songs that I am not "precious" about them changing something in it, if it suits them better. And while each song has specific meaning for me, I cannot expect every singer to align themselves totally with it - as long as they are within the "general" meaning of the song.
Occasionally we come to changes that do "grate" a bit. I have one such right now. In a song I am in the process of recording for my next album, one of the singers participating (well-known, experienced, respectable and respected) does not want to use the word "bl**dy" that I have in a line (it's a diver singing "and will I draw my last breath through a bl**dy respirator"). I can easily change it to "musty", and make sense. But while I sympathise with his experience and wish to avoid profanity, in this particular case I want to use the word to accentuate the diver's frustration. Still, I am going to give in, because HE (the artist) is singing it, and he needs to be comfortable doing it. But when I sing it in clubs, I use my word. That is indeed the folk process, and it would be too churlish of me to do otherwise.
Furthermore, I have actually adapted the way I sing several of my own songs, and the occasional word, learning from the way others sing them - because they do bring improvements to the song. Breezy in particular has affected the way I "do" some songs, slowing them down occasionally, or pitching them a bit higher, etc. Now, THAT is the folk process in all its glory - when the writer accepts improvements suggested by the performer - and the songs become better for it.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 04:14 AM

There is a bit of a problem with place names and battlefields particularly. Spanish speakers would call it Badahoth, it's spelt Badajoz and most people in Britain at the time (the general populace, rather than Court) would call it Baddajozz with a hard j and soft z. If I were a song writer in 1809, it's likely I would have used the pronunciation of Badajoz that I was familiar with, the general populace might not know what I were singing of if I said it Badahoth. Sometimes these colloquial pronounciations are used deliberately for a rhyme or a particular rhythmn (Tally vera as opposed to Talavera (where the stresses are different), so it isn't always poor research, but a desire to use the correct pronounciation. It's for this reason I try not to use foreign battlefields when I write songs!

LTS

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 07:42 AM

I remember Ralph McTell in an interview saying that when he first sang "From Clare To Here" in Ireland, the audience all joined in, and by the time he'd got to the end of the first chorus he'd learned their version (The Fureys again?).

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 08:05 AM

I heard him (McTell) tell much the same story recently. He then sang it his own way, which I've tried to remember - but I have probably plausiblised it since & ended up with something else completely!
His way is much the nicer btw - it has a nice deep swoop in it. Well at least I THINK it does....

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Willie-O
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 08:45 AM

Gads. If you don't like a line Eric Bogle wrote, try writing a whole song that will get picked up by as many people as the oft-maligned "Willie McBride", and best of luck to ya.

There is some merit to the substance of this thread, but it is permeated by an air of superiority and retentiveness. "They're all incompetents except me and thee, and I'm not so sure about thee."

F J Child published lots of lyrics that include ellipses...cause there was a fragment missing. Try singing it that way? Don't think so. Just cause you can't quite make sense out of a few syllables does not mean you don't understand the song as a whole.

I can't believe how many threads lately have been variations on "don't you just hate the twits that show up at our folk club?"
Wonder where they get the idea it's not a welcoming scene.

Cordially,
Willie-O
ill-conceived

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 11:04 AM

Part of the Folk Process is the fact that every body has different ways of phrasing things,so although I might learn a song with the 'as written'lyrics,after a year or so,if I go back to the original words I
find that some phrases have changed themselves to a form that flows more easily when I sing it.This is more often than not entirely by
accident,without me being aware at th timew.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 11:07 AM

Which correct words? If you're talking about a recently written song, then I suppose there are "correct" words. Older songs usually have as many saets of "correct" words as you have the patience to look for them.

I suppose the one thing that bothers me is laziness, not changing words. I will sometimes chance words subtly in a traditional song because a particular line seems to have too many words in it for the meter, and it's awkward to sing. The same meaning can sometimes be given, just by simplifying the line slightly. Then, there are times when I really love the awkwardness of a line in a traditional song, and sing it that way. In both instances, I start with the words as I've heard them in ONE version of a song.

For songs I've written, I generally don't mind changes in words, if I believe someone has changed a line with the same thought process that I follow. I only mind, if I feel the meaning has been changed. I'd stick with "bloody" meself. Of course if the line had the space for the words, you could substitute "Golly-gosh-darned." "Danged" would work too, or if you don't won't to offend people, you could just use "bleeping" and let everyone substitute their own word.

I've had songs I've written recorded with an open, printed apology for not taking the time to learn the words correctly. Skip the apology and spend that time learning the words...

Recently written songs are like young birds... once you boot them out of the nest, they have to learn to fly on their own.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: smallpiper
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 11:26 AM

Hey Willie-O I agree with you completely and don't go near folk clubs as a result!

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: saff
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 11:34 AM

I see a song as a vehical, and the singer the driver,some are good and some not so good but for someone to take the time to learn somebody elses song, shows that they appreciate the song even if they do twiddle with the carborettor i.e change a word or whatever it, in essence it still remains to be the same vehicle and generally gives the singer a lot of pleasure.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Noreen
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 12:30 PM

Gurney, you have quite likely heard it sung that way, but Eric Bogle wrote:

Did the bugles sound (or sing) the last post in chorus, did the pipes...

This song and its treatment is a perfect of example of how people have shown a lack of care and respect. The song is the thing, and it annoys me too to hear a wonderful song being mangled by the careless.

I am NOT criticising those who try, nor am I saying that saying I am better than anybody- but I do think that if anyone is going to sing a song, they should give it the respect it deserves by learning it properly, making sense of it and presenting it well, as the original poster says.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 12:31 PM

I wish some singers would take the time to learn the songs that they sing - too many times recently, I've been in sessions where performers have the words in front of them and don't seem to have taken the trouble to have try to understand what they're singing about. I have been known to have a few words around when I first sing a song in public, but it's usually just an aide memoire for a part that I've been having a problem with. If I couldn't get a song right within a few times of singing it to an audience, I'd probably find something else to sing. In order to really get a song accross, you've got to have the song in your head and then be able to get inside the song.

I can think of one singer who always sung from the words and dots, I used to be rather puzzled because the tunes were always very strange. On one occasion I managed to look at the "dots" and realised that they were for the "normal" tune, but that the notes being sung were completely different. I asked the singer about this, and received the answer that they couldn't actually read the "dots", but worked out the tune from the guitar chords !

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Hrothgar
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 05:02 AM

The world is full of brilliant musicians who have no more feeling for words and their use than a cow has.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Santa
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 05:33 AM

A few points to pick on.

If you don't learn the words you aren't showing respect for your audience or the original songwriter. "Folk process" - no, sheer bloody laziness and arrogance. You'd soon pick on a misplaced note - words are even more important. It is the words that carry the message in a song, the tune is a nice bit of decoration going on behind, hopefully in a way to reinforce the words. Witness the way they can be switched around so easily.

Pronunciation. In a recent song workshop my wife met a non-folkie who was having trouble with one well-known song from Kipling. He couldn't get "Traf-algar" to fit. She pointed out that it was originally pronounced "Traf-al-gar" and is widely sung like that.

I recall Paul Sirman trying his version of a sea song in a pub in Lancaster. Lined up on the wall behind him was 2/3 of the combined Keelers, Shantymen (I think!) and Antiques. His chorus didn't stand a chance.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 05:48 AM

And vice versa - there are people that primarily love the words & really aren't worried about the correct tune - hence working out the tune from the chords. Dave - were the tunes strange in a good way, like an interesting variation, or were they strange in a bad way?

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 05:55 AM

While I sympathise with the "learn it properly" advocates - it is nice for the song to be given the respect it deserves, we forget one thing, I feel: Folk music embraces both those capable of doing justice to a song (by whatever criterion you care to choose) and those who cannot, but love the song just as much and want to sing it. And those who find it hard to memorise lyrics without 100 repetitions, yet they want to "offer" the song at their local club. And those who cannot hold the key - or even a note. And those with limited vocal or instrumental ability that will adapt the song to what they can do.
It's all fair. Yes, songs can and do get mangled. But the folk process (rightly) includes more than just the better performers, so we should take the rough with the smooth.
Do I like what each performer does with my songs? No, I don't. Do they have the right to perpetrate whatever atrocity they care to, on it? Yes, they do. And at the end I still feel pleased that they chose my song to mangle, because it indicates that I "touched" them somehow.
Let's face it - when someone does a song of mine better than me I may be pleased, but also - a little - jealous. Hey, I'm human! So, long may the song-manglers live to prop up my fragile self-confidence! Joking, of course...
I think.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 06:26 AM

Guest KB - No the tunes were terrible, but I don't see how you could ever come up with the right tune from backing chords. In most arrangements there's usually only 4 or 5 chords used as the most and many of these will be used for a whole bar or so. Most guitarists will actually accentuate notes in a chord when playing an accompaniment, but chord names don't give anything more than a general indication of the melody note.

Santa - was the incident that you're referring to, the Easter before last, because I have a feeling that I might have been there.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 07:18 AM

Dave - Obviously the standard tune is not generally retrievable from the chords, but given a set of chords & a set of words it is possible to come up with a tune - even though its not the original tune. The chord progressions may well suggest a reasonable tune that will fit. You can at least get something singable from that method, and if you are primarily a "words person" then it seems quite reasonable to do so. Lots of people use existing tunes & bolt on their own words - so this is just the reverse of that?
Its just unfortunate that this person's tunes were terrible! It sounds fasinatingly aweful.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Willie-O
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 08:22 AM

Yes, but it's all preaching to the converted...none of us would commit such heinous offences against musicianship (my favourite word of the year) or what ever you call it over there, would we? If a performer, or a particular song they do, sucks, that's always going to be part of an open mike scene. It would be better if everyone was terrific, or would it? More competition for the paying gigs.

People making up their own tunes fascinates and irritates me too, but if they are truly annoying, social Darwinism will take care of them eventually, won't it?

One thing that always mystifies me, if I take a run at a song which it turns out I don't remember all of the verses to, at least one person will say afterwards "Jeez! How do you remember all those words? That's amazing!" I guess it's because I've developed a policy of "never apologize, explain what you did wrong, how many verses you missed, or that you had the sixth and seventh verses juxtaposed in a way that didn't make any sense. Just sing it if you dare, then quit while you're ahead." Yup, I like to wing it without everything worked out to the nth degree, at least if I'm playing solo. Then again, I perform in a different type of environment--there are no British folk club scenes around here, and I don't frequent open mike nights. If I'm going to perform it'll be at least one full set, usually a full evening.

Umm, Santa...in order of your paragraphs after line 1:

1. Stuff and nonsense. It is ridiculous to say lyrics are more important than tunes, or vice versa. A song is a marriage of the two; without both it is not a song.
2. Tra-what? Huh? Never mind...
3. Paul who? Is that his real name, or is that an in-joke on McCartney or Simon or what? Anyway, if I take it that he was trying to do a shanty, and there were all these fabulous shanty-singers there, and instead of supporting the song they froze him out. Frankly it sounds like they were all being assholes. Music is not a competitive activity, at least not unless there are prizes. Call me sentimental (few who know me would), I think we were put on earth to help each other.

Willie-O
Devil's advocate and secret musical elitist

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Midchuck
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 09:09 AM

....if I take a run at a song which it turns out I don't remember all of the verses to, at least one person will say afterwards "Jeez! How do you remember all those words? That's amazing...

I get asked that a lot. I always explain that I simply use, for song lyrics, the memory space other people use for the names of their friends, business associates, and even family members. They laugh. They think I'm kidding. Then they're insulted if I meet them on the street and don't remember who they are.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Willie-O
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 09:37 AM

Good one, Peter. I get that a lot too, or I would if I let on that I don't have a clue who they are! Mind if I steal it? (If you do mind, tough!)

W-O

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Amos
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 09:59 AM

I would rather someone stand up and sing and not do it as well as I would liek, than s/he not stand up and sing at all because of fearing what I would think. The very idea of squelching the impulse to sing in another turns my stomach.

Songwriters, now -- I concur that they should be careful to leave out clangers. They do have the luxury of time for review, after all. And I find some of the inconsistencies I have seen in modern songwriting efforts..of language, feeling, period and style... very grating.
But almosty always better than no song at all, the more popular choice.

A

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Moses
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 08:14 AM

Those gifted singers and musicians who can remember all the words (all the time), get the pitch, tone, etc. right and interpret each song in the way the writer intended are most certainly in the minority.

The rest of us - through inexperience, fear or lack of talent don't always deliver what we would like to but we (mostly) do the best we can.

Surely folk music, by definition, is for all of us:- even those who never do justice to a song help keep the tradition alive just by singing it.

Those of us who "also sing" at Herga Folk Club are lucky to have the encouragement of talented residents (the likes of Kitty Vernon, Johnny Collins, Graeme Knights, El Greco, Mike Sparkes etc) who help make us feel that our contributions, whatever the standard, are welcome.

Isn't this what makes folk music so special?

Give me good, well-performed songs,yes, but above that, give me the people who sing them.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Willie-O
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 08:28 AM

Right on, Moses. I don't recall you ever saying "Thou shalt not engage in faulty pitch" ;)=

Hey, what if we just all try to be better singers, and better people? Two goals everyone can strive for.

W-O

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Noreen
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 11:45 AM

I would rather someone stand up and sing and not do it as well as I would liek, than s/he not stand up and sing at all because of fearing what I would think. The very idea of squelching the impulse to sing in another turns my stomach.

Most definitely, Amos. I always encourage people to have a go, and then I would encourage them to try and improve what they are doing (tactfully of course- before someone who doesn't know me assumes I would march in and criticise negatively!) because I want everybody to be the best thay can possibly be- and they will enjoy it themselves all the more that way. Been there, done that myself.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 06:03 PM

Mose, you said it all in one sentence: "Give me good, well-performed songs,yes, but above that, give me the people who sing them".
Folk music is about music, yes - but most of all, it is about the FOLK. So criticism of musical ability is secondary - attitude can be much more important.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: VIN
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 11:17 AM

'ere, 'ere, Mose, Noreen & El Greko! Its only recently that i've thrown caution, reticence, nerves, fear of what those 'who do better' migth think', call it what you will, to the wind and got up (or stayed sat) and sang. Took a while as i'm 52, but there you go. Don't think i've done too badly so far but would always welcome helpful criticism and a guiding hand at presentation or vocal technique etc tho i doubt if captain paranoia will ever be banished from my mind, which may be a good think as it makes you want to do better or seek improvement. Practice makes perfect as they say.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 06:21 PM

"Did the band play the last post AND CHORUS"...

Traditionally at Anzac Parades, the "Last Post" is always followed by "Reville"...

Probably not what was intended tho...

Robin

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 05:55 PM

I can overlook the occasional missed note (been there), forgotton words (there too), futzing around for the key (lived there for a while)...in short, I can overlook mistakes.

What I can't convince myself not to notice is a lack of respect, whether it's to the listeners or the song.

There are people who work very hard to learn lyrics, and it's probably not easier for all of them than it is for you. Using a book instantly boosts your 'repertoire' to infinity. You have a safety net that those who memorize songs risk going without. If people have to read the lyrics (and I've done that occasionally too), I wish they could at least practice the songs so they don't fumble with phrasing and look like they're reading. If they want to share a great song with people, it sure isn't going to sound great from a cold reading.

Being on pitch, keeping tempo, learning the words (after discovering what they actually ARE), the right chords (ones that work) are things that take work. It sometimes seems like that's what people object to - having to put in some time to learn a song and how to present it. If it's not something other people can actually enjoy, maybe the shower's a better place to sing it.

Yes, it's FOLK music. It's made by average people, and music made by average people doesn't equal crap. It's a pretty big lack of respect for someone to think it is. I have source recordings of some amazingly average-sounding singers who've learned songs, can sing on pitch, can keep a tempo, and sing with a passion that makes me want to listen. They love the music and care about the listeners. It isn't just an unsuccessful opportunity to show off.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 06:05 PM

You are right, Jeri, and I warm to the respectful ones more than to the others, no doubt about it. It's just that I cannot quite ignore the disrespectful ones' right (to be disrespectful) either. I don't like it - I just accept it and cringe. Just a matter of principle, not of my personal like or dislike. As for the quality of the output, the respectful ones generally do better, in my experience. It could be because they care more.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 06:06 PM

In other words - attitude matters...

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 06:26 PM

Definitely!

Yes, people have the right to make fools out of themselves be disrespectful. It's just that they may find a mad rush to the john/loo, the bar, or elsewhere when they sing in future.

The respecful ones care more I think, and they put some thought into presentation. I've heard brand-new singers do a song, complete with nerves and mistakes, that I (and most folks) thought was wonderful.

As to the lyrics, if there's only one known version of a song, anyone who's heard it is going to know you goofed it up. If the chorus singers are loud enough (see Santa's post), the chorus, at least, is going to get un-messed up. I don't mind people doing different versions of a song (which might include their own), and people not listening for what version it is are probably the subject for a whole other thread, but misheard lyrics or words that have been changed by the singer just for the hell of it, are going to get buried.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 06:38 AM

Willie-o - I think you got the wrong idea about what Santa was saying about Paul Sirman (yes that really is his name - he lives in N. Kent UK near me). Far from freezing Paul out, I think it was more a case of them drowning out his version of the chorus. Lancaster is a seasong/shanty festival and the chorus singing tends to be powerful. Mind you, when shanties were sung aboard ship, if a shantyman had tried singing a different version of the chorus from the one that the crew knew, he'd have either been drowned out or drowned over the side !   Paul's got a thick skin though - I don't think that he was particularly upset.

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 09:18 AM

Despite the way people travel these days, learn songs from CDs and books that folks all over learn from, there are STILL local versions of songs. At what point do word and/or tune changes develop into a local version of the song? Frankly, if the local folks all know the local version of a song and a singer comes in doing the 'original' version (the one the locals learned from), they're going to get drowned out with the alternate choruses.

Lots of people do 'The Leaving of Liverpool'. If new/different folks come to sessions anywhere, that last word in the chorus can sound pretty hairy. "It's not the leaving of Liverpool that grieves me, but my darling, when I think of 'you/thee' - comes out as 'ythouee'. (So in future, is there going to be a 'thoo' or 'ye' version? There probably is one somewhere already.)

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Songster Bob
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 12:38 PM

Interesting thread. I'm a big one for forgetting words, most often to my own songs (I sort of conflate ALL the versions of each line!), so I don't get too upset when someone does that. If someone's tune isn't the one I remember, well, I also have this weakness of forgetting tunes, so I can't complain. But what I do do is prepare, so lack of preparation is an absolute no-no in my book.

Depending on the situation, of course. If it's a sing-around that you knew of for days in advance, a session at a festival or such that you chose to attend, then you should be prepared. If you walk into a pub and, before you even get a pint in your hand, someone calls on you for a song, well, that might excuse you from a little in the preparation department.

I remember one time we had an Open Sing at my house, hosted by another singer. He chose the topic and had a month to prepare two songs, maybe three. From his first note, it was obvious he wasn't ready. Couldn't find the key, forgot words, mumbled apologies, and similar faults. The funny thing is that he was doing a house concert the very next night (in a different house), so he had the perfect opportunity to show off and make people want to attend his concert. If it were me, I'd have double-damned made sure to be on top of my game with an opportunity like that. He didn't, and the house concert was sparcely attended, too.

As for odd tunes from chord changes, I was learning to play guitar on my own (this was in 1963) from a book called "The Hootenanny Song Book," which consisted of reprints from Sing Out! and Oak publications. I'd try out songs I knew, and learn the chords necessary for them, then try songs I didn't know. One of these latter ones was "Crow on the Cradle." I didn't read music, but by following the chords and words, and a bit of guessing at the "shape" of the tune, from the notes on the staff, I actually arrived at something close to the tune, but with an odd timing for the last line. I don't remember whether my tune was toofastthroughthelastsixnotes, or t o o   s l o w f o r t h o s e   n o t e s, but when I heard it for real, I had an "Aha!" moment.

But, as everyone has said, it's caring that makes for song sharing.

Bob

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Willie-O
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 02:35 PM

Thanks for the explanation Dave. I've been there with trying to put across a different version...but if they're such good singers, I still figure they should try to work with the lead singer rather than against him. Nothin' irritates me more than someone taking over the lead because they have more god-given vocal volume.

Jeri, good point, that is about where I stand. You can sense respect.

W-O

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 12:58 PM

Jeri, I don't know if the example you quoted for different versions of a song (Leaving of Liverpool) is a real one, but if indeed it is, then what you have there is not a new version, but only people who somehow rhyme "Be" - as in " ...united we will be" - with "you". Now, "me" instead of "thee", I can understand (though it makes the meaning of the song rather perverse); "three", or "Brie", or "tree", or even "scree" I can stomach. But "you" ? ;-)

Subject: RE: Take care with that song!
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 01:49 PM

El Greko, t's a perfect example of how people can change songs. I'd guess somebody heard the song the original way and thought the word should rhyme and made it rhyme.

This, from Dan Milner/Liam's Brother in this post

"This song was only ever collected once from tradition."

and

"...as collected by Bill Doerflinger from Dick Maitland"

and

"But my darling when I think on you."