Tech: Mics on the PC

Subject: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 08:22 PM

I've been having hassles with my mic - I currently use 98SE, but thinking of moving up to XP Home soon...

My mic is an unamplified mic & is very quiet, it's a Labtec DeskMic 534 with switch. I need the 20Db internal PC boost, but that tends to bring out the 'scratchies' - also the working distance & dynamic range is restricted - OK for just voice, but a pain for musical instruments...

Any useful comments about Webcams with internal mics, USB mics, any mics to recommend or avoid? I'm not trying to pretend that I have a Profesional Recording Studion on my PC, and I don't want to spend $1000.00 on a mic, I just want to have something that produces reasonable results, the basic thing is very disappointing, especially for music... but Paltalk does OK for only a 2.5 Kb/s data stream...

I have an old Dolby compressor/expander unit that used to be in my Stereo System, and I have used that in my Theatre Sound work, I can also wield a soldering iron - even have a modern gas one, so any useful suggestions would be nice...

Robin

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: bigchuck
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 10:53 PM

Robin, your mic would probably be ok if you could preamp it somehow. Generally, I don't think mics made for computer use are very satisfactory. Tonight I was using the same AKG C1000 condenser mic that I gig with, which has a pretty hot signal. I used to use a dynamic mic run through a 4 track recording deck, and that seemed to work pretty good too. Your sound actually wasn't bad when you had the mic turned up.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 11:20 PM

The most detailed (not the same thing as useful, maybe) information I've seen on selecting a mic for use with a PC is in the "Accessibility Options" stuff at Mickey$oft'$ Knowledge Base. (There may even be some comment in Help files on your own machine.) It seems that the "Speech Recoginition" programs are incredibly sensitive to noise, and a couple of articles deal with reduction of pickup from the power supply, hard drives, and all them "osculators" on cards in the PC.

It boils down to the suggestion that you use a mic that converts to digital in the mic, since the digital signal is much less affected by cable pickup. There are apparently a few types that do this, although I didn't save details when I came across it a few weeks ago.

If you do use an analog input to the soundcard, it's fairly obvious that the larger the signal the less the S/N ratio for a given amount of crud, so a preamp in the mic makes good sense.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: Cheap Tracks
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 11:28 PM

What do you want to record? Vocals, Instruments (of what kind?), Both? Are you going to sing and play at the same time or record one track at a time?

There are some very respectable mics available for $100 or less. There are also some small mixers below $100 and standalone mic preamps for $100. If you can spell out a little more about what you want to do and how much you are willing to spend to get there I might be able to help you out. If you do the eBAY thing you can probably get fixed up for even less $$$.

I doubt you'll ever be satisfied with a computer mic, regardless of what you plug it into. If you're willing to spend a little money, I think you'll be surprised (and pleased) with the results.

karl
Cheap Tracks

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 12:10 AM

Thanks John
I'll try and track it down - it all makes sense to me and with my background is "obvious" :-)


Cheap Tracks

I'm now Long Term Mature Age Unemployed (sic) so minimal cost is the Keyword. You're perfectly right about Computer mics. Audio mics, I take, plug ito the standard sound card input - digital mics would probably plug to their own card or the USB...

I play several different istruments at the moment I just want to get some sort of sound on Paltalk - if I hae the mic more than a couple of inches away from my moouth, - nothing much - the Piano Accordion carries well enough if I lean on it - but it's dynamic range is such that it varies from unhearable to distorting depending on presets, playing energy... :-)

I need something to be able to handle my hammered dulcimer... and curently, I don't think that trying to sing while playing will generate anything useful...

This thread will probably be of help to others anyway too..

Robin

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 12:31 AM

Probably not applicable to the Foolstroupe problem, but worth mentioning - my last new machine surprised me by having no external microphone jack on the sound card. This "improvement" was not shown in the specs. It seems they took the mic jack off the plate to make a place for the seven speaker jacks for the "surround sound" system. There is a jack on the board so you can plug in a "piggyback" slot plate to get an external jack, but of course the "pig" is extra cost.

Researching since then indicates this is not too rare a thing, and the specs they show you up front seldom detail what specific connectors are present. If you're thinking about a new machine, be sure to find a picture that shows the actual physical layout of the ports - it seems to be the only way to know for sure.

Of course, my new Creative Audigy 2 external sound unit has so many holes in it I don't know what's supposed to plug into some of them.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: Cheap Tracks
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 07:58 AM

I tend to avoid all-in-one solutions (like a digital microphone). All the pieces of the system are still there, just in one box. Marketed with emphasis on the simplicity and convenience rather than quality and no options for incremental improvements and limited compatibility with next generation equipment. USB is fine today, but will you have it on your computer 5 years from now? What is the weakest link in that system? The microphone, the mic preamp, or the analog-to-digital converter?

For what you are recording, I would get a budget, large diaphragm condensor mic, a mic stand, a small mixer or preamp, and the necessary cables. Your Dolby compressor could work into this system nicely too. From these things go into the LINE input on your sound card. My first choice for a budget condensor mic is the Russian-made Oktava MK319 available on eBAY and at Guitar Center stores. There are others out there by Marshall (MXL), Behringer, Samson, Nady, and others. The Behringer B-1 would be another good option for you.

For a mic preamp I would probably consider a small Behringer mixer - here's a model with two mic inputs for $50 (room to expand in the future!).
Behringer UB802
The output of the mixer can feed your Dolby compressor to help with the dynamic range issues you expressed and from the compressor go into your sound card LINE input. I think the only cable you'll likely need to buy would be 1 mic cable and maybe some RCA patch cables to go from the mixer to compressor - compressor to line in.

This isn't as convenient as plugging a "digital" mic into your USB port, but for under $200 you'll have a real mic on a real mic stand and with some experimenting on mic placement I can assure you that your socks will be knocked off by what you are able to record and broadcast on PalTalk.

karl
Cheap Tracks

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 11:12 AM

Robin, you said you are on 98SE but would move up to XP Home soon.

Don't. XP Home is decidedly less stable and more buggy than XP Pro. Get XP Pro instead.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: Cheap Tracks
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 11:30 AM

While I share DaveO's preference for Windows XP, I prefer the "If it ain't broke" approach. If you have stablity problems with your '98 machine I would encourage an upgrade to XP, however I know several folks who swear by the reliablity of their Windows 98 computers - why mess with success?

Also, I have not found any stablity differences in my XP boxes. I have 2 computers running XP Home and 2 that run XP Pro and all 4 are good, steady performers. In theory the only differences are some additional features that exist in Pro like support for VPNs, Dynamic volumes on hard disks, and multiple processors.

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: Cheap Tracks
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 12:27 PM

I should also note that there are some on-board and cheapo PCI sound cards that really aren't up to the task of recording music. Creative Labs products are vastly over-rated and their quality claims are often less-than-honest, although they are adequate for many home recordings tasks (In the recording circle Creative Labs is often referred to as "Creative Lies"). ESS-based sound cards are often serious trouble.

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: BTMP
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 12:33 PM

Cheap Tracks: I totally concur with your recommendation of the Behringer mixer as an 'interface' to the computer sound card. I have the very same 802 board you mentioned and it has proved invaluable for my modest home recording activities. Not only will the board accept the XLR mic inputs, but if you play electric guitar/bass or use a drum machine, these will plug into the qtr inch inputs. Likewise for turntables and tape players. I also play in a Bluegrass band, and we use the 802 board for our PA, outputting to a pair of powered Yamaha speakers, and playing on a single mic, the AKG 3000. Behringer also has a smaller board with a single mic input, about $39 via Musiciansfriend or SamAsh.

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: IvanB
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 12:55 PM

Robin, I made myself a "preamp" by using the master speaker (the one with the controls) from a cheap pair of Yamaha powered computer speakers. This particular set has two input jacks and a volume controlled output jack. I took the back off the speaker and slipped the feed wires off the speaker cone to eliminate the sound. Then I replaced the back, plugged my mic into an input and ran the output to the microphone jack of my sound card. Not an elegant solution for high quality recording, but it gives me plenty enough for Paltalk, and it was CHEAP.

OTOH, a couple weeks ago I was on Paltalk with a cheap Labtec PC mic on my notebook and the group said my sound was fine. It was about $10 US and is self-amplified as well. Only has 1.5 W total amplification but that seems to be plenty.

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 06:29 PM

Good stuff here - keep it coming please.

1) Win98 is unsupported - I can't afford XP Pro and have a cheap offer that I haven't refused - am acquiring H/W at moment - have been advised that if you have all your H/W plugged in when installing XP and then do the online update, you have a better chance of getting it all to work together, than incrementally stuffing around later. Also better to format the C partition and start naked - the PC that is!
:-) Upgrading from 98 is definitely NOT recommended.

2) I am in Australia - $US dollar prices are not really helpful here - also some stuff is just not available here - also we are 240V 50Hz power. Also thanks for the info (it will help others!) but I need to find Aussie suppliers - (preferable personally Brisbane!) Delicate stuff imported often breaks... :-( While I have acquired a few items from Ebay overseas, they are acoustic musical instruments - I would be reluctant to try electrical equipment.

3) I acquired a couple of butchered PC speakers - (they have speakers rated at 2W) someone cut off the extension ones - was going to do what Ivan B said - the main thing is a lack of level coming out of the mic - also feeding it thru the compressor could be helpful. The higher the level coming into the PC sound card (on board actually) the better the S/N ratio and less boost required inside the PC and less crap injected. I agree with Cheap Tracks mostly on the technology type issue.

4) IvanB - what is the Model number of your amplified Labtec mic? I have a small Digitor Tieclip condensor mic (I think type number N19C1533) with single cell AA battery box (probably bias) but has large Stereo Plug on end - need to get appropriate adapter or build one to fit into PC mic sound plug. Need to look up wiring diagrams - they fell out of my head years ago... :-) My labtec seems to be a noise cancelling type - it has front opening and what seems like back vents so it would be intended as a close range input type.

5) I would prefer non-digital audio stuff external to the PC - can wield a soldering iron OK and got lots of good quality bits in my 'junk box' - was considering a webcam with mic, but comments I have seen seem to indicate that USB sound (digital obviously!) can be a hassle - also I can't hack it easily if the sound level is too low or needs compressing anyway. I think a small OP-Amp style compressor board (only needs to be single channel for the mic) could be squeezed into the Speaker case also, but am not up to date on designing it. But one should be able to buy either a kit, or even a pre-made board somewhere. I can squeeze another small transformer inside the case too - it doesn't need to have a working sound performance anymore...

6) Was thinking of a small mic mixer - but my funds are very limited... but one with a built in compressor would be nice and justifiable probably.

Robin

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: Cheap Tracks
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 09:19 PM

If you want to play around with DIY microphones, try plugging a speaker (unpowered) into the microphone input on your sound card. I have had some speakers that made very good microphones. Some of them are very bass heavy - others can be quite good - and the diaphragm is so large on them they can be very sensative.

When I was in college (early '80s) lived in a 2nd floor apartment. I put my speakers in the windows facing out (one on the south wall, one on the east wall) and wired the leads into the mic inputs on my cassette deck. There were kids playing in the parking lot and a thunderstorm rolling in from the west.

Later on I put the speakers back in the windows facing in and played the tape. I had to look out the windows to be sure I was hearing the tape and not the kids playing. The distant thunder and passing traffic was all extremely accurate.

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 09:41 PM

ah yes -

moving magnet mics - before condenser mics - were the only real type - there was the "Carbon Mikes" - like old telephone mics, but they were limited in capabilities...

I would be concerned about the impedence mismatch - mic input high impedence, speaker of about 2-16 ohm - very low impedence - that could explain your apparent bass boost.

Robin

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: Cheap Tracks
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 09:56 PM

"Was thinking of a small mic mixer - but my funds are very limited... but one with a built in compressor would be nice and justifiable probably"

Not a mixer, but a single channel preamp with compression. Might to the trick for you, and $80 US. For $130 there is a Behringer unit with all kinds of bells and whistles.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--RLLCL151

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 05:08 PM

My on-board sound is the Intel Audio-Max - standard on my 815EFV board. BTW, as per JohnInKansas comment above, there is no line-out jack.

Robin

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: Cheap Tracks
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 10:27 PM

I have an INTEL motherboard with the Audio-Max stuff - It never worked well for me, even for casual audio stuff - listening to music, playing games ...

I put a third-party card in the machine and had much better luck.

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 08:59 AM

Foolstroupe - and others

I came across an "ongoing series" of articles some time ago at PC Magazine's "Extreme Tech" site, on "building a digital audio workcenter" that might be of interest.

This is NOT a "how to add stuff to your PC" thing. The intent is to build a digital audio workcenter (DAW) that is self-contained, independent of your PC and used only for your audio work. The "baseline" design would run you about $7K (US), as I recall, although they do give suggestions for an "economy version," and later installments give/promise some "cost reduction" possibilities.

While I don't think many would be interested in building this set up (it's in a "Do it Yourself" format), it might be of interest to see their list of what things a good audio system is supposed to do, and what "pieces and parts" they suggest to get it done.

Although my recollection is a little fuzzy, I believe this is where I saw some comment on the possibility that Win98 may be a better OS for this particular use than WinXP (there were lots of weasel words thrown in), although it may have been in a side link from the article. It might give someone some thoughts about what to do with the "old faithful" when they get a new machine, although I didn't look at whether a "conversion" to this setup would be realistic.

Since it's an "on-going" series, finding the latest installment is something of a trick - especially since there's no way to know when the series continues. The link I saved is at Build a Digital Audio Workstation, and I believe it was the second main installment. It includes links to the earlier stuff, and lots of "side links" to related info; but you're on your own looking for later columns.

The link is to the "front" version, and it makes you page through the article in little bites. (Gives them more chances to place ads, I think.) I linked there because it does give better links to the "related information" stuff. If you click the "print this" button at the bottom of the first page, you get the whole thing in one continuous "screen," which is much easier to scroll through for reading, or to print. The first installment (see related info links) actually gave more of the rationale on what is included and what it's for, and may be more "interesting" to most people.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: Cheap Tracks
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 07:04 PM

I didn't read the article thoroughly, but there were enough bits that caught my attention that I can safely say to take that info with a grain of salt. The one thing that REALLY jumped out at me was his comments about acoustics - you to NOT want a "dead" space to work in.

Carpeting, drapes, and such only absorb high frequencies - lower frequencies require a lot more depth than those materials provide. The dimensions of the room, the locations of the speakers and your ears all need to be considered with tuning the acoustics.

Following his advice you are likely to end up with a room that is overdamped on the high end and problematic in the bass department.

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 03:53 AM

CT -

I guess I didn't even notice that they talked about building the room. My quick look was at the sound hardware and program stuff, which is really their area of "expertise," if they have any. If I decided to build the thing, I'd probably have to put it out on the "back 40" without walls to treat. SWMBO would have me living somewhere besides here....

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Mics on the PC
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 May 04 - 09:07 AM

With regard to the wiring of the microphone input on PC sound cards - can I assume that the signal is on the tip, the body is the earth and the ring is the biasing voltage? I haven't yet been able to turn up any tech diagram/info on that.

Robin