Where else Professional and Amateur mix?

Subject: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: GUEST,friubowls_Dad at work
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:46 AM

Looking around the (British) Folk Scene it is not uncommon for several "Professional" folk singers to play at the same Folk Club, and at the same time, as the "Amateur" floor singer. In what other forum do any professionals and amateurs mix so freely ?

Indeed I would say in some circles, say acting, then if no "Equity" card then no "amateurs" could mix with the "pro's".

What a wonderful genre Folk must be to see these opposite ends of the spectrum mixing so freely, and enjoying each other, just for the sake of the music.

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:51 AM

And what a nice, cheerful and optimistic sentiment. Good on yer lad!
Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: Mooh
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:51 AM

You're right. After hours gatherings of the local celtic festival indicate the same thing. The cool thing is that some of the "amateurs" have become "professionals" over the years. We have discussed what makes those two definitions here before, but session experience sure can excellerate the learning process!

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:56 AM

there are venues where theatre people in general mix - amatuer, pro, semi-pro; stage, screen, street; - but I don't think it is as common as in the musical venues.

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: Splott Man
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 11:21 AM

I can think of several other musical genres, but not with the same coverage,
eg rehearsal bands (big band), jazz, choirs.

"an amateur practises till they get it right, a professional rehearses till they can't get it wrong"

I fall somewhere in between.

regards

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 11:56 AM

the only diference between an amatuer and a professional is THE MONEY!

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: JWB
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:40 PM

An example of pros and ams mixing, which is not from the musical world, is in golf. Most professional tournaments have a Pro/Am match as part of the fun, in which the folks who do it for a living play alongside the weekend warriors.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: KateG
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:43 PM

Speaking as an architectural historian and former archaeologist, I can say that those are two fields in which a lot of very good work is done by amateurs.

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:48 PM

Hey KateG - presumably they have sing-songs while they're carefully brushing the earth away in the fields? :0) :0)

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:27 PM

Well, in a field where the "professionals"--those who make a living out of their music--are so rare, it's not too surprising.

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: treewind
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:47 PM

The comment about archaeology and art history reminds me that astronomy is another field where many important new discoveries were and still are made by amateurs.

As for music, there is some mixing in classical music too. Think of an amateur choir that hires professional soloists for a concert, or an amateur orchestra that hires a few professional "stiffeners" for a performance.

But there's still nothing quite like the folk scene for a real blurring of the distinction. Most performers who get paid (hence are "professional") don't do it for a living and have a day job, and some of those who are full time still like to have a session where they are playing just for fun and nobody gets paid.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 03:19 PM

the only diference between an amatuer and a professional is THE MONEY!

Oh...best laugh of the week that!
However I've always loved the mix that is the folk club. The fact that audience and artist, floorsinger and resident all participate in the evening and pee in the same stalls. The only thing I've missed compared with other venues is a dressing room where I could tune up both instrument and voice before going on. I've sung cold probably a couple of thousand times and everything I've read says it's bad for the voice. That I still have one is a miracle then!

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 03:32 PM

This reminded me of the theatre (sorry "theater") cat in archie and mehitabel:
"mehitabel he says both our professions are being ruined by amateurs".

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:24 PM

Semi-professionals blur the whole contrast quite a bit - and that's before you start considering the difference between really good amateurs and ordinary professionals.

Rugby has some of the same features.

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: GUEST,Hrothgar in Canberra
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:44 PM

That last one was me.

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:04 PM

The distinction between professional and amateur has never been about skill or competence.

It isn't even just about money or even making a living - Van Gogh never sold a painting in his life, and relied on handouts and odd jobs sometimes, and you wouldn't call him an amateur. I don't mean just because he was a great painter, but because that what was his life was about.

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: GUEST,Phil
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 09:18 PM

As JWB says, golf is one genre, but mostly I would think they are "Celebs" rather than "ams".

KateG says about the diggers etc (Can't spell archaelogists at present !), and she is right, I suppose that also Astrononmy is another genre that may freely mix all the range of abilities and standards.

But Folk still seems to be the most available, and rewarding, to mix the different levels of capability and achievement.

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 03:23 AM

And don't forget the military. When the reserves are called up to strengthen the rank and file they mix freely with the professionals, and it's not always the professionals who deliver the best shows.
But they might happily rejoin in tramping the parade ground when the old discipline of "march and song" is refreshed, often old folk songs adjusted to the cadence. Oh those happy days!

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 05:22 AM

Archaeology and folk music have a lot in common. Underfunding of both means it is very hard for a professional to obtain a living wage therefore there is a reliance on amateurs and semi-pros - those who do it for love and those who do it for pin money.

Speaking as a trainee archaeologist and a semi-pro musician who has to have a day job - I love both subjects dearly but don't think I could pay a mortgage and family expenses off either.

I will be able to indulge in both subjects to my heart's content when I am retired in 23 years time, if I haven't trashed my digits due to arthritis and wear and tear in the meantime.

Cheers
Sarah

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 08:40 PM

In a Folk Club, it is on level terms.

How do the"Pro's" see playing with their peers ?

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: Songster Bob
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:56 AM

The word "amateur" derives from "amo," or "love." The word "professional" derives, not from "for money," but "for others." In music, particularly popular (people's) musics, there isn't that much difference.

I guess the only difference is, if someone asks for a given song, and you have to sing it, you're a pro, and if you don't have to unless you want to, you're an amateur.

Bob

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: Kaleea
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 02:34 AM

The so called "pros" & "amateurs" mix it up so one might not realize who is whom at the annual Walnut Valley Music Festival, held every Sept. in Winfield, Kansas, USA. Many of the "pros" generally spend alot of their time out in the campgrounds jammin' with the thousands of Musicians who also attend year after year.

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: open mike
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 10:30 PM

as a volunteer fire fighter, I often respond to the same calls that the
paid fire fighters do. unfortunately the biggest difference is that the pros have a union to fight for conditions, wages, benefits, etc. and the "vollies" position is not as secure. we do get nominal compensation for our efforts, and are officially known as "paid call fire fighters" or p.c.f. but the money is barely enough for gas money. we also receive training.

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: Gorgeous Gary
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 02:41 PM

Rading this thread, I'm struck by the similarity between the folk community and the science fiction community. There's definitely a professional/amateur mix at the conventions; certainly many current authors started as fans and fanzine writers and there's plenty of mingling between even the "big" authors (Larry Niven for example) and the fanzine writers, or the general fans.

On the filk side of things, we have a few professional performers who hang out with us, not necessarily folks known outside their regions but who have albums and do regular gigs. Heather Alexander (Seattle/Portland area) and Carla Ulbrich (southeastern US) come to mind. Also of note is the recent National Space Society-sponsored TO TOUCH A STAR album of space-themed songs, which features a Christine Lavin song among several songs from some of the filk community's best perfomers (Leslie Fish, Julia Ecklar).

-- Gary

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 02:26 AM

open mike - interesting to hear from a fellow volunteer fire fighter in the States.
In Germany we don't receive payment for our missions. But the community is obliged by state law to rise, keep and maintain a fire department with all the trucks and gear needed according to its size. In my town we seldom mix with professional fire fighters; there are only 6 towns (over 100.00 inhabitants) who can pay professional fire fighters in our state. In all the years we only once had support from the professionals in a difficult rescue action, when we needed the height rescue platoon (mountaineering normally on the scyscrapers of Frankfurt).
We don't loose money when we go to missions through working hours because the community has to pay the wages we otherwise should loose.
Oh, but sometimes we get money: At assemblies with more than 200 people in the town hall we have to procure a safety watch from a team of 2 to a squad of 6 and are paid by the organizer. I always swapped rock and pop concerts with folk and gospel concerts. Nearly as good were the Turkish weddings where we also got excellent food.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 10:31 PM

I am a fire fighter in Alberta. Volunteer. We have two professionals--chief and deputy chief. The rest of us are trained in the 10-1 skills as time allows and courses are available. We are paid to respond, but no one does it for the money. Mostly it's paid to compensate for gas, wear and tear on personal vehicles (cold starts in winter) and ruined clothes (that we wear under the gear). It's nice to have a good life insurance policy (ours is $300,000 for death), but not nice enough that anyone wants to collect. Nice to meet you guys.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: Where else Professional and Amateur mix?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 01:40 AM

Many church congregations mix pro and am.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle