BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever

Subject: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gatering Ever
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 10:14 PM

Well danged... Some 1.5 million folks showed up todat in D.C. to protest the *angry white man's* party that wants to turn back the clock and have abortions performed with coat hangers in backrooms of gas sations while their women get 'um discreatly in sterile clinics outside of the US...

Hey, that's like 1.5 million. The Moritorium brought about a million and that was unreal so 1.5 million is beyond belief... Like way over the edge...

Will it effect the current rulers?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gatering Ever
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 10:55 PM

I'm in Atlanta on my way back from the march. It was wonderful. We rented a van and took 12 people up from Orlando. The protesters were tiny in comparison.

There were mostly women, but probably 25% men and people of all colors, faiths and economic levels.

Now if the marchers will all vote as well as all their friends. . .

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gatering Ever
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 11:10 PM

Way to go gals!!!
\

A

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gatering Ever
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 11:15 PM

We watched a good bit of it on CSPAN and I was mostly choked with tears, it was SO WONDERFUL to see so many. My daughters and I marched for Women's Rights in DC in the late 80's ( just realised it was in '92) and the emotions of being there with so many of common cause was all brought back to me by today's sites.

GoodonyaBlackcatter!!

They said over 1400 organisations were represented there, too. That is powerful coaltion building!!

I was also excited to see many young adults there.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gatering Ever
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 11:18 PM

Yesss!

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gatering Ever
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 11:40 PM

Truly astounding, but I sure wish there had been as many men as women. That would have made 3 or so million, right? Come on guys! Get with the program!

I think any time you see these numbers amassing in the nation's capital, it has an impact. The problem is, the coverage by mainstream media has been pathetic as usual. They are treating it as if it were a Sunday stroll by the Ladies Garden Club or something.

The tv networks gave at least as much coverage to the foaming at the mouth anti-abortion nuts as they did the march itself, despite the nuts small numbers. One picture at the Washington Post website showing a white guy with a huge sign that says "God Hates You".

I swear, you could have a demo with 10 million marchers and 10 people protesting it, and they'd give just as much coverage to the 10 losers, as the march itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gatering Ever
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:45 AM

Excellent

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gatering Ever
From: Blackcatter
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 01:01 PM

A lot of the men stayed home to watch the kids. In our van there were 2 men, one girl aged 15 who went with her mom. 7 of the other 8 women who went have kids, 6 have loving husbands to watch the kids, one had a loving wife and the last had a loving mom of her own to watch her two sons.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gatering Ever
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 01:05 PM

Interesting, GUEST, my local papaer, the Journal which comes out of Martinsburg, WV, sisn't even mention the event but had a long article about the Rpublican congressional hearings to promote tradition marriage???

Yeah, I allready fired off an email to the paper...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gatering Ever
From: Nerd
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 01:31 PM

I heard a police estimate of 500,000 to 800,000. And unfortunately, the government no longer releases official estimates. So Bobert, where did the 1.5 million number come from?

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: MAG
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 02:39 PM

I was there in spirit.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: MAG
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 02:51 PM

Actually, I was giving away archival quality poster reproductions from my old women's group:

www.cwluherstory.org

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Cruiser
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:43 PM

According to what an announcer/organizer said on the stage near the end of the gathering: {Paraphrased} the park police said 1,150,000 people and they are still coming...

Now if you multiply by 2 that is a lot of... well, I am a breast man.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 06:39 PM

Yeah, Nerd, I heard it from one of the organizers who was being interviewed and juding by the front page picture on todays Wsahington Post and having participated in demonstrations going back to VietNam, the Moritorium being the largest, this one was one big demonstration. The entire Mall was covered with peopke fom end to end. That is a lot of folks... More even then the one in January 2003 I attended against the invasion of Iraq (which hadn't happened yet) and that was one big danged get together... But this one? Whew. Pictures don't lie. Go to washingtonpost.com and see fir yerself....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 01:12 AM

Whoopi Goldberg gave a helluva speech.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: GUEST,harlowpoet
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 10:54 AM

Why is abortion equated with womans rights?

Sorry but fifty per cent of babies that are conceived grow up to be women. Where are there rights on this?

My rosary isn't on your ovaries ladies, but we should respect our creator a bit on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:11 AM

Fuck the creator - if one exists - have him stop creating babies with defects. Have him stop allowing men to rape women and thereby getting them pregnant.

You have absolutely no right to determine what someone else does to their body and the argument that the fetus is an indivdual is specious. any ogranism that requires 100% support from its host as does 99.9% of all aborted fetuses is NOT an individual.

Sorry - but I heard that arguement on sunday from people who were spewing hatered in a way that would make Jesus even more sorry that Christians have screwed up his beliefs so much.

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:11 AM

"Our creator" gave us choice, Harlowpoet. It's simply about keeping that choice open for the sake of us all. I found out about this DC parade after the fact...congratulations to all that attended either in body or spirit...xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: GUEST,harlowpoet
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:51 AM

So whens a baby a baby? One day one week? Nine months?

What absolutely gets me is that a baby in England can be aborted at the same age when a bit of care can let it live.

I'm not a hater. I just resent every penny of tax I pay to the NHS for performing this 'service'

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:56 AM

"at the same age when a bit of care can let it live"

So, just how many of these babies are you willing to save, and raise? They will need all the love, and financial support you can give them, and it certainly sounds like you are wanting to take up the cause of giving more and more babies the homes they need. So, shall we sign you up for several dozen or so?..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: GUEST,harlowpoet
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 12:29 PM

So basically Ellenpolly what you're saying it that if a baby has an uncertain future, its all right to kill it.

Who are you to decide?

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 12:36 PM

Excellent! I'm truly glad to hear this... It's time to set the clock where we are, and leave the masochistic past... It may be up to you, ladies... The guys are too busy with their toys and their ego's to pay attention to anything that doesn't reminisce... "To boldly go where no man has gone before..."
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 12:44 PM

It just concerns me that the people who are so sure every embroyo needs to be born, often to those who are the most ill equipped to know how to begin to deal with being a parent, don't seem to be on the front lines of offering viable alternatives to these unborns. I am not one to make the decision for anyone but myself, and that's the way it should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: GUEST,harlowpoet
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 12:57 PM

Ellenpolly

What's the difference between an embryo and a baby then?

It may be a physical one but its not a spiritual one.

The day you can pinpoint the exact moment an embryo turns into a baby, you have all my apologies and I will say you are right.

Peace though. Simon

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Amos
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 01:04 PM

Harlowpoet:

Step up and volunteer to raise them, Simon. That will resolve the issue nicely. No one "wants" an abortion even when they choose it as a choice. It is not a mindless or thoughtless decision.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 01:23 PM

I think Harlowpoet had the right to base his decision on religion, every woman should have the same opportunity to make her decision on whatever factor they choose. THAT is what this is all about.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: GUEST,harlowpoet
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 01:24 PM

Amos

I'd end up raising an awful lot of babies.

Simon

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 01:44 PM

here is the point....Since the argument about abortion is one of those issues which will NEVER be agreed on by everyone, the only reasonable procedure in a sane society is to allow the persons concerned to make the decision for themselves...especially the woman. If you disagree, you can be sad, you can work to help avoid unwanted pregnancies and birth defects, you can pray if you wish...but do not try to make laws which interfere with free choice! You do not know what physical..or METAphysical constraints there might be about abortion, you only have emotional opinions. There is more sadness and social upset brought on by *saving* every foetus possible than by the sad, but occasionally necessary, alternative.

This march was not focused directly on "abortion", but rather on freedom of choice and the right to decide and control all aspects of a woman's own life and body...instead of struggling forever with passionate groups who want to make rules about her rights based of THEIR cultural/religious leanings.

Face the truth...there WILL always be birth control and abortions....the question is only how we can make the process safer and saner so as to reduce the trauma, and eventually, dramatically reduce the number needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 01:50 PM

From a biological standpoint, any ovulation without pregnancy is the loss of a potential human life.... This implies that all "right to life" supporters should be out there in the streets making sure that every woman is always pregnant. I wonder how many are sending their 15 year old daughters out with instructions to become pregnant? Or their 14 year old ones....?

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 02:05 PM

"at the same age when a bit of care can let it live"

Once again this is a specious argument put up by the anti-abortionists. 99.5% of abortions are conducted prior to the time when the fetus has ANY chance at all to survive outside the mother. And those proceedures that are performed after that point are nearly all situations of rape or incest pregnancy or when the life of the mother is at stake.

In Orlando, FL, we had had a case a few weeks ago of a 12 year old hispanic girl of a farmworker family who was raped by a "family friend" When it was finally discovered that the girl was pregnant she was near her 3rd trimester. Against the wishes of ALL the men in the family, the mother brought her into the local Planned Parenthood office. The $5,000 was raised for the cost of the risky late-term abortion through PP and the Orlando Women's Emergency Fund (which I volunteer for), because the child and mother could not afford that, of course. The day was set for her proceedure and she never showed up. We found out through the police (who could not even file an official report because no one in the family would say who raped her) that the men in the family pressured her to have the baby. She will receive no pre-natal care, will probably have the baby at home, could very likely die during birth. The baby will likely need ICU care for weeks afterwards and is likely to be retarded and physically hanicapped for the rest of its life - if it even survives. Instead of $5,000, the eventual cost could be reasonalby be expected at $50,000 to $200,000 - nearly all paid for by taxpayers.

And if you think this is an isolated case, our organization has worked with cases similar to this at least twice a year for the past decade.   And those are just the ones we know of. And that is just Orlando, FL.

Simon, I hate the fact that so many people use abortion as a form of birth-control. It is a shame that unwanted and un-loved fetuses are being produced all over the place, but until the culture changes, abortion is the best solution for those situations. It is also why organizations such as Planned Parenthood works so hard to distribute condoms and prescribe birth control pills and the "morning after" pill as well.

Planned Parenthood of Greater Orlando performed a few thousand abortion proceedures last year. At the same time, they spent over $100,000 on birth control education, provided birth control pills, etc. to over 20,000 women, provided the "morning after" pill over 5,000 times, distributed over 10,000 condoms and performed over 1000 tubaligation proceedures.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: GUEST,harlowpoet
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 02:13 PM

I never said in any of these posts, that I was supporting any laws that restricted the right to women who were carrying a baby to kill it.

I object one hundred per cent that my funding through taxes is paying for it.

I think abortion is sick. Full stop

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 02:27 PM

Try as we like, Republicans won't let these proceedures be funded in any significant way by the government money.

Of course we can't wait to spend government money on the healthcare of lazy ass people whose obiesity causes them dozens of medical conditions they cannot afford to pay for themselves. Why don't you complain about that too? Same with tobacco.

The governement is in the business to support the lazy and stupid. And of course - while you think it's wrong to have the government pay for abortions, what about all the money that welfare is spending because of all those unwanted kids?

Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: GUEST,harlowpoet
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 03:07 PM

Blackcatter

I'm within my rights to complain about every thing I'm funding,Including what you mentioned, some of which I also disagree with.

None of this takes away the point that killing innocent babies is wrong.

It always will be, regardless of political situations.

Simon

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 03:20 PM

"... killing innocent babies ..."

loaded language-all three words...and a matter of OPINION. As I suggested above, if YOU don't like it, don't do it. As to funding, the government spends my money everyday on killing someone, and I don't get much say....all I can do is argue and vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: GUEST,harlowpoet
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 03:37 PM

Loaded language, but completely true.

If you wanna argue against abortion, stay with the points and address them.

Peace Simon

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 03:46 PM

Things are rarely so black and white as some people see them. I'd love to be able to say that abortions are wrong - but what about the woman who is raped? The teenager? The woman whose child will probably kill her if she tries to give birth to it? The woman who will give birth to a child so handicapped that she will have to nurse t all her life?

Life's too grey for absolutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 04:10 PM

BillD, thanks for that excellent post and your follow-ups.

Blackcatter, thank to you, too, for telling us of that specific case AND thanks for volunteering!!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: GUEST,harlow poet
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 04:46 PM

Sorry BillD, my last post 3.37pm meant to say “about abortionâ€쳌 not against.

Peace

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: DougR
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 06:34 PM

I have a question for Mudcatters who are so opposed to war because people get killed, yet support abortion which kills babies. How do you reconcile those two points of view?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Peace
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 06:56 PM

THAT is a good question.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 07:04 PM

So Doug how come conservatives are against abortion yet support going to war where people get killed?

You also make the assumption that abortion is killing a baby, which many people would say is not the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 07:19 PM

you have it backwards, Doug...

and Simon..I am aware we are not likely to agree on much here, but I must repeat, it is the point that, since people simply differ on claims about "when life begins" or "when does a mass of cells become an individual" or "when (and if) a soul enters a foetus" (or even whether those are the issues!), the only resolution is to allow each person's conscience to guide them.
Your reply "Loaded language, but completely true." is used in all sorts of other issues, and I am sure we could find some issue where YOU would agree that an opponent was using loaded language unfairly.

You have not said (unless I missed something) whether you rely on religious convictions for your postion, or merely hate the idea of potential life being lost...and I suppose it is not important, but either way, your position depends on certain premises and definitions that YOU hold, which others might not. All through human history some people have tried to claim certain personal issues were public issues, and subject to regulation by the government. Do take a look at some of your other beliefs and ask if there might be some which you wouldn't care to have declared illegal by courts or legislation.

It is NOT an easy situation, and I would TRULY rather that there were never another unwanted baby or unplanned pregnancy or sad heart or frightened girl or panicked rape victim......but those things too, pervade human history, and we must be sensible, as well as emotional, in coping with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 07:55 PM

The question of when life begins is a religious one and not something on which there is nearly universal agreement. Therefore, the question of whether abortion is murder is an issue of separation of church and state. There is little question that soldiers or their victims or capital punishment defendants are individual LIVING beings. Therefore, killing them is clearly more universally killing, independent of religion. It is NOT a religious issue. Now, we are talking about killing. And against my wished, my tax dollars support all that. I feel that given the return on investment as described by Blackcatter more than makes the rest of the case for me.

I'd rather save money than force women I don't know to bear children they may not be able to handle to satisfy any religious values I may have against their getting an abortion. And furthermore, I would suggest that sex education which to most anti-choicers consists of one word: "Don't" but in reality is open, honest, informative, and empowering should be given to all children BEFORE they need it. That, too is a wise expenditure of my tax dollars.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: John Hardly
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 08:18 PM

The question of when life begins is not a religious one -- but it is the one question the pro-abortion side is the more uncomfortable answering. Much more convenient to attempt to keep it vague -- never name a time when the "fetus" is a "baby" -- even though a stark majority feel a greater sense of misgiving about abortion the later the term. It's maybe a 50/50 split in public opinion and yet only the pro-choice side has steadfastly resisted ANY compromise (the pro life side has lived with total defeat for thirty years) -- even though MANY of them, under non-political conditions would also feel more uncomfortable with abortions the later the term.

And the current event that sparked this huge outcry has to do with late-term abortions -- abortions that take place when almost all of those "fetuses" are viable. But THAT's the thing that gets everyone this far up in arms? The fact that someone cares enough to say this far but no farther? And that's the thing that brings more protesters out than anything? More protestors than the war?. wow.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 09:20 PM

First, there are no "pro-abortion" groups.   Second, most brain wave activity occurs after the 30th week and the overwhelming majority of abortions are done before the 12th week - rarely after the 24th. Third, the reason that "late term" abortions have become the issue has nothing to do with "setting a date", but rather the fact that Bush and friends are trying to enact laws that will give a fetus legal rights DISTINCT from the pregnant woman. That isn't a compromise. In essence it would open up inquiries even if there were a miscarriage. Women's equal rights are at stage.   

If that passes, then it might as well be against the law for a man to masturbate since they are killing potentially millions of new lives. Maybe that would make things equal.

Pro-lifer's should devote more time to allowing the teaching and availibility of contraception and family planning.   Also, why do you not hear them cry out against the death penalty?

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Amos
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 09:30 PM

DougR:

Another perspective on this question: why should anyone believe any pretense offered by Bush about respect for life, when he has clearly demonstrated a great enthusiasm for murdering other people in order to get them to act better? Doesn't that strike you as a teensy bit hypocritical? Especially since he chooses to blame BOTH positions on his private hotline to the Almighty in the most self-serving way. It is to spit.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 10:44 PM

As a Pro-Choice advoccate i have no problem with telling you all when I think life begins - it begins before the egg and the sperm are conjoined. Both of those two cells are absolutely alive.

The problem is that that has nothing to do with the issue of abortion. As I said earlier (and no one disputed my point, I beleive) that the vast majority of abortions take place well before the point when a fetus (a medical term, nothing more or less) has a any chance in surviving outside the womb - even with the most advanced neo-natal efforts.

Those few abortions that occur after that time are almost always directly related to the health of the mother or in remarkable situation such as the one I outlined earlier (where it didn't actually happen).

And yes, I am anti-capital punishment and am against the current "war" in Iraq.

There are no simple answers to tough questions. We need legal, safe abortions for many reasons - those people who abuse the system by using abortion as a primary form of birth-control are wrong, but humans find ways to abuse everything that humans need. One must accept the limits of human nature and strive to change people's actions through education and prosperity.

In the last year, the morning after pill was for the first time available though Planned Parenthood of Greater Orlando. PP provided over 5000 of them to women who might have been pregnant. Maybe only 5% or less of those women were probably pregnant, but that at least saved several abortion proceedures from taking place, and allowed those women to not have to go through the tough process weeks later about what to do, now that they are pregnant. Many hospitals now (quietly) administer the pill during any rape case. By the way - if you have a friend who has been raped - don't take her to a Catholic hospital - they won't administer it, or if you have to - get her to Planned Parenthood immediately after for the pill.

I have worked on the "front-lines" of the abortion issue now for over a decade. Central Florida was a national target in the early 90s for the pro-life mafia. I can tell you stories of those times. I can also tell you a hundred stories like the one I recounted above.

Not everyone who is anti-abortion feels this way, but politically, the issue is tied to controlling the lives of women and the poor.

pax

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 10:53 PM

From another forum, this post, which I believe says it all:

"Interesting that there is a debate about killing beings in utero (one at a time), about which there is also a debate as to whether they are viable or not.

There doesn't seem to be a debate about killing actualized, cognizant, viable human beings in wars, bombing hundreds or thousands to death at once. Interesting.

I wonder if it could have anything to do with the fact that one act is performed by women, and the other by men....

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: LadyJean
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 12:35 AM

It's like this: Let's say that supermodel Vanessa, so rich and famous she doesn't need a surname, has found herself accidentally pregnant. She fears weight gain, and stretch marks. The pregnancy would interfere with her big swimsuit shoot in July etc. So, she's going to terminate the pregnancy. Does anyone doubt that supermodel Vanessa will have no trouble having an abortion under the best conditions, performed by someone who knows what he's doing?

Now, let's talk about Bob and Kathy, who just found out that the child Kathy's carrying has a medical condition that means the child will die, slowly and painfully, after a few weeks. They want to spare their baby, and themselves that agony. Shouldn't they have the same right as a vain, silly, woman?

We could speak of Anne, who has an ectopic pregnancy. She won't carry such a pregnancy to term. But if it's terminated quickly, she'll be able to have other children. If it isn't she may die.

We could even consider Lucy, who knows her parents will disown her if she has a baby out of wedlock.

Shouldn't they all have the same rights Vanessa's money buys for her?

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 01:13 AM

Also, Ladyjean, the bottom line is that having an abortion is a private matter and NO ONE has the right to dictate a general law about it. I could never have an abortion - and there was a time when one would have been very convenient for me - but if my daughter chose to have an abortion, it would be none of my business, though it would break my heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: GUEST,harlowpoet
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 02:59 AM

What has class got to do with taking an innocent life?

Also its got nothing to do with being anti-women. I've got three sisters and a mum who share my view point.

Abortion rights are not a triumph but a miserable defeat for compassion. Over and out

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: matai
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 05:01 AM

Just to deviate back to the march for a moment do you think it could help with this?

While suturing a laceration on the hand of a 70-year-old Texas rancher
(whose hand had caught in a gate while working cattle), a
doctor and the old man were talking about George W. Bush being in the White House.

The old Texan said, "Well, ya know, Bush is a 'post turtle'."

Not knowing what the old man meant, the doctor asked him what a post
turtle was. The old man said, "When you're driving down a
country road and you come across a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that's a post turtle."

The old man saw a puzzled look on the doctor's face, so he
continued to explain, "You know he didn't get there by himself,
he doesn't belong there,
he doesn't know what to do while he's up there,
and you just want to help the poor stupid bastard get down."

Matai

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 10:23 AM

"What has class got to do with taking an innocent life?"

The fact that we can't agree on what is a life makes this an arguement that will never be agreed upon. Harlowpoet and others have set a standard for what constitutes a life and their position won't change. Others, including myself, do not see a fetus as a life at the stage where an abortion occurs.   Based on those standards, there is no way either side could possibly "compromise".

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 10:43 AM

Hi Harlowpoet,

The ultimate question comes down to this: Do you wish that abortions were illegal?

To me, it is alright if you dislike abortions as long as you don't force your opinion to control other people's life.

In today's world - the rest of the debate is effectively mute. Societies that are controlled by conservative religious groups (such as Ireland) do not allow the proceedure. Where free societies do. Unfortunately, the U.S. is on a knife's edge regarding that issue.

So really the only question is - if you could decide would you make abortion illegal, and if so - would that mean all abortions?

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: GUEST,harlowpoet
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 12:03 PM

Hi Blackcatter
I wish abortions didn't happen,
I'm not arguing either way for legislation as there's too many issues involved.
However I was on the bus the other day and a couple of girls, not long past their teens, were talking about their abortions. One of them won 3-2.
Is this something to be proud of?

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 12:52 PM

I'm still reading these postings, but there are people here who are saying much of what I would have said, and saying it very well.

(Blackcatter, I like the cut of your jib...ps, by the way, in regard to the question you raised on the "last post on thread"...what you write here would work for me!)

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 01:17 PM

cool Ellen

Nopew - Harlowpoet - it's just plain sad, but it's something that surprises me. No matter how lightly some women seem to feel about abortion being an easy solution, I've never met one who was proud of their proceedures.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 01:24 PM

Harlowpoet, the conversation that you overheard was not something to be proud of. Abortion is not a form of birth control. All the time, money & effort that is being spent to keep the right to choose laws in existence could be better spent, on both sides, to providing education and contraception available to teenagers.   Unfortunately we are forced to fight a battle that was already won with Roe v.Wade instead of doing the real work.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 01:32 PM

And the conservative agenda is also fighting against education, contraception and responsible actions. They want the poor to keep having kids because that's the easiest way to keep them poor. Their abstinence-based programs will always fail for 2 simple reasons - one: sex feels good. Two: poor women have little else beyond their bodies to use to provide for themselves. And I'm not just talking about prostitution. A poor girl (especially a Black or Latina) who is on the brink of graduating from high school has little prospects beyond service work, which pays below poverty levels, or finding someone to take care of them. The sad thing is that most of these girlds hook up with men who are in little better condition to take care of their own lives and often resort of drugs or theft to make ends meet.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 01:35 PM

Education will acheive what all the reactionary authoritative supposed=to's in the universe will fail miserably at. If you operate from understanding, with a free self-determinism, you get the awesome power of free choice. If you operate from authoritarian codes and mandates backed only by punishment, all you get is craven robotic compliance and covert evasion in back alleys. I hat eto sound like a progressive but it's the only way to improve the situation.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 04:24 PM

Sex education which is open, honest, informative, and empowering should be given to all children BEFORE they need it. To deny it is to perpetuate unwanted pregnancies. To deny it is also child abuse. If the anti-choicers would cease their stupid notion of sex education being only the word "Don't" then they wouldn't need to worry nearly so much about the resulting need for abortions.

But they don't cease; they persist. And they also fail to oppose war and capital punishment, which cannot be denied as killing. That is because their real agenda is not the end of so-called murder. Their real agenda is controlling women.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 08:42 PM

The difference between the Nazis and the U.S. Conservatives? The conservatives know that you just have to keep people poor, ignorant and filled with McDonalds food to control nearly everthing - no need to kill - just threaten it occasionally.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: DougR
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 09:23 PM

Bill, I think you are making some pretty broad assumptions. I didn't say what MY position on abortion is. I posed the question, which does not bear repeating, because I think those who support abortion but do not support wars (based on loss of life in each instance) is a hypocrit.

As a matter of fact, I support a woman's right to choose. Not ALL conservatives think EXACTLY alike.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 09:35 PM

"I think those who support abortion but do not support wars (based on loss of life in each instance) is a hypocrit."

You make the assumption that it is a "loss of life" in both instances. There is plenty of evidence that shows that a fetus at the stage during which abortions are performed is not a life. You can't be a hypocrit if you choose to believe the evidence that says it isn't a life.

So how can you not be a hypocrit if you feel that abortion is wrong but war and the death penalty is okay? What evidence could you possibly have to support those diverse sides that would not make you a hypocrit??

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: MAG
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 08:43 PM

"That is because their real agenda is not the end of so-called murder. Their real agenda is controlling women. "

I agree with this. I also think that they worry about their next generation of cannon fodder.

Subject: RE: BS: Womens Rights = Largest DC Gathering Ever
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 09:28 PM

Looks as if the new Mrs. DougR is making progress on ol' Dougie... He's softenin'... I swear he is... Next thing ya' know he will have just jumped right on by the Dems and be be talking about voting Green...

(Hey, Bobert, he's allready done that!?!?...)

No, I mean he'll be sayin' that *he's* votin' Green!

Bobert