BS: Biodiesel

Subject: BS: Biodiesel
From: Kim C
Date: 21 May 04 - 11:17 AM

Story here

So when are we gonna get some? Is this going to go the way of gasohol? I had a diesel Volkswagen years ago, and it ran great till the timing belt went Snap. I wouldn't have any qualms about driving a diesel again, especially not if this fuel were easily available.

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: CarolC
Date: 21 May 04 - 11:20 AM

You can make your own if you want. Sometimes fast food restaurants will give people their old cooking oil, and that can be made into biodeisel. I'm not sure what the process is, but there are people already doing it and you can probably find out how to do it on-line.

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: Kim C
Date: 21 May 04 - 11:26 AM

Isn't that sort of illegal? And wouldn't I have to have a place to put it? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: CarolC
Date: 21 May 04 - 11:36 AM

It's not illegal at all. There are already people who run their cars on old cooking oil from fast food restaurants. I guess you would need some oil drums for storage. I'll see if I can find some information for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: CarolC
Date: 21 May 04 - 11:43 AM

This Google search turns up a lot of websites with information:

making biodeisel

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: Kim C
Date: 21 May 04 - 12:14 PM

Dang! That's just like making SOAP. Interesting. Thanks for the link.

For some reason I thought it was against the law in the US to fuel an engine with anything other than what the factory specs called for.

So why aren't more people doing it?

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: CarolC
Date: 21 May 04 - 01:03 PM

I think it's probably because they don't know about it. Maybe we can change that.

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: Cuilionn
Date: 21 May 04 - 01:07 PM

There's a farm & environmental education center up the coast (DownEast) that runs all their farm vehicles on biodeisel, which they refine themselves. I believe they have only one "on-road" vehicle that uses the stuff, and they get around the restrictions by labelling it an "experimental" vehicle. Not sure if this is a Maine state requirement that might be different elswhere, or a federal thing, but ye can guess the Powers-That-Be behind any anti-biodeisel legislation.

By the way, I just heard that our state's governor (not a flaming progressive type by anyone's book) actually heated the governor's mansion last winter on biodeisel. It seems that the laws governing residential heating use are not nearly so restrictive... and the latest "RealGoods" catalog has a biodeisel refining system available for sale, and workshops on how to do it! (The $2000 ready-to-use system might be a bit expensive for an individual, but if you went together with a few other households and teamed up with a local fast food restaurant to supply the collective's "raw materials", it might work out pretty well!

--Cuilionn, who knows people who know people who use biodeisel!

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: ced2
Date: 21 May 04 - 02:13 PM

I think its only legal in the UK if you pay the fuel duty; it is quite easy to sniff out tax evaders...the smell of chips pervades the rear end of the exhaust pipe!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: DonMeixner
Date: 21 May 04 - 03:35 PM

When the Falkland Islands were engaged in a war between The UK and a South American Superpower, unnamed here because I would want to be accussed of anti-thirdworldism, that un-named nation powered it's entire mobile army on biodiesel made from sunflower seed oil.
( From: Paul Harvey, The Reader's Digest, NPR Science Friday, and Bill Nye the Science Guy)

   As I recall that was 23 years ago. The US was going to look into bio diesel. I suspect they looked into it as far as the petroleum powers that fueled the government allowed them to and then the powers that be, (Whoever they be, I don't know for sure so I won't conjecture whom they may be.) decided the whole idea was as impractical as conecting every house in the nation by computer or reducing the federal budget.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 May 04 - 03:38 PM

Saw a fellow on the news a few weeks ago talking about biodiesel. He said that he got it free from several fast-food restaurants in his area that normally had to pay to have it hauled away. They were tickled pink that he wanted to take it off their hands. I don't remember what process he said he put it through after he got it (filtered the bits of chicken, fish, batter, and French fries out of it, I guess), but it didn't sound very complicated.

Don't know for sure, but I don't think it's illegal--yet! I don't see that the auto manufacturer should care, although it might void the factory warranty or something like that. One legal point that might be called into question, however:   lots of the price of gasoline or diesel fuel at the pump is for tax, which is often used for road and street maintenance. Once those who levy taxes catch on, it won't be long. . . .

Like someone once said, "We'll have solar power once they figure out how to run a sunbeam through a meter."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: open mike
Date: 21 May 04 - 04:27 PM

I have a colleg-aged friend who manufactures biodiesel
and has plenty of customers to keep them busy..
i was on an alternative fuel chat list but it
became a quqrrelling ground for folks with differing views
and was irritating, so i unsubscribed.
Propane is another fuel source that is readily availalbe,
and requires just a bit of adaptation to the system.

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: Kim C
Date: 21 May 04 - 04:46 PM

Does an engine have to be modified to run on biodiesel?

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: DonMeixner
Date: 21 May 04 - 05:19 PM

Gas engines can't run on it Kim, but all diesels should be able to with little or no modification.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: emily rain
Date: 21 May 04 - 07:59 PM

there's a book "from the fryer to the fuel tank" by a fellow by the name of tickell. :) it was recommended to me by my bio-deisel consuming friend, and i'm waiting for it to come in at the library.

i've personally watched folks pouring filtered vegetable oil (NOT biodeisel) into their modified deisel engines and then starting them right up... surreal! exciting! totally fucking inspiring! and when you stand next to the exhaust pipe, it's like standing outside a burger joint. as soon as i get a nice wad of cash, i'm going to make the leap...

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 May 04 - 09:24 PM

I'd strongly urge anyone considering a do-it-yourself conversion of any good vehicle to bio-diesel to read the recipes carefully - before launching into it.

The couple I looked at in links already posted above quite accurately, albeit incompletely, describe a number of engine and fuel system modifications that do need to be made to avoid some very real safety hazards, as well as to avoid damage to the engine.

The materials needed for the "refining" required to convert used veggie oil from the local chip shop to useful biodiesel are quite similar to those used for "cracking" meth - an activity that usually ends in requiring a team with HazMat equipment for the cleanup.

Bio-diesel is something that can be used, but for most it's not clear that it should be used, unless you can get adequate fuel supplies from reputable sources. The refining can be done "safely" enough if you follow known rules and recipes but there are very real hazards (and lots of bad smells) for those who try to "shortcut" it. (A lot of the smells apply even if you do it right.)

A check with local authority is probably also to be advised. Many urban areas have strict (even if seldom enforced) rules limiting the amount of "spare" motor vehicle fuel you can store on residential premises. Although they seldom come around to see if you've got more than the legal 10 gallons of "lawnmower gas" on your property, you may be assured that someone will smell your "refinery" and make a complaint.

And you will, almost certainly, void any warranty on your vehicle - so try it out on an old one(?).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: Gypsy
Date: 21 May 04 - 11:06 PM

Well, in my neck of the woods, there is an awful lot of bio-diesel. Couple of thoughts: If you purchase it, it is generally (at least here)20-50% more costly than gasoline. You CAN make it at home, but you really need to know what you are doing. Another thought: Bio-diesel DOES pollute, and DOES NOT smell good. At least not to me. Was on a bio diesel float performing, which left me with a migraine for a week. Not a lot of fun. so, it is an alternative. But if you look at the bigger picture, if we raised the rape/corn/grain that would produce bio-diesel on a mass scale, it wouldn't pan out. It just doesn't work as efficiently as gasoline, or petro diesel. On the short term, it is a good idea. Until you think about that particulate matter going into the water, but that is a whole different diesel tirade.

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: Bobert
Date: 21 May 04 - 11:19 PM

Well, like hydogen cell cars there is the one drawback... It takes a lot of petroleum powered equipement to make enough of the stuff to make it fiesable... You know, like tractors and combines, ect... But it's till worth a good look since they also can be modified to run on this fuel source...

Ain't gonna make these SUV'ers too happy cause it won't run their 500 horsepower road hogs...

But, hey, we're runnoing out of oil so we're gonna have to eventually bite the bullet, stop the narcisim and be a little smarter... Heck, diesel works fir me. Zero to 60 in a calendar year? what's the hurry...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: open mike
Date: 22 May 04 - 01:37 AM

one of the main adaptations you need to make if you use bio-diesel is
that the tubes which carry the fuel cannot be rubber...you need to change them if they are....have you ever seen the lid of a canning jar that has had peanut butter in it? the rubber gets all gooky. this is why you should never use vegetable oil as a lubricant if you are using condoms...rubber and oil don't mix just like water and oil don't!!
here is a post i contributed recently to a vehicle web site...
As for Bio Diesel, the main thing I have heard is that if you plan to use
it you need to adapt some of the parts that are made of rubber (gaskets,
hoses, etc.) to other materials, as vegetable oil dissolves rubber. If you
want to find out more about Bio Diesel, there are several web sites. It
is becoming easier to find, and several universities and alternative energy
institutes are researching and leading training classes in its production.

The folks I know (college students) who produce Bio Diesel drive mercedes diesel vehicles.

check here for more info on Bio Diesel:

http://www.veggievan.org/
http://www.biodiesel.org/
http://www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/
http://www.biodezl.com/
http://www.nbb.org/
http://www.nbb.org/buyingbiodiesel/retailfuelingsites/default.shtm
http://www.ecotrekker.com/
http://www.brownoil.com/biodiesellocations.html
http://www.brownoil.com/soypower.html
http://www.afdc.doe.gov/altfuel/biodiesel.html
http://www.uidaho.edu/bae/biodiesel/

If I had gotten a diesel vehicle I was planning to run it on Bio Diesel.
I have the gasoline model and am considering on converting it to propane!!
I have asked a company skilled in propane conversion and they
say that the GMC engine is the most easily adaptable to propane!

and here is a message from some folks who drive 2 diesel vehicles..
and say that bio diesel and diesel are inter-changeable.

We have been using 100% biodiesel in both our vixen and '81 mercedes wagon. We don't make our own; we buy it from regular retail outlets. In northern California there are several: Berkeley, Ukiah, Hopland, Laytonville. We have bought it from regular petroleum product retailers in Albuquerque and Tucson. In all but Berkeley it has been normal filling from a standard pump. After several months we are still waiting to see if there will be any problems with the hoses of the 23 year old mercedes. With newer vehicles, such as the vixen, we do not expect any. Much of the biodiesel we have purchased was made from unused soybean oil; some was made from used cooking oil. Regardless, biodiesel is free of the sulfur contained in ordinary diesel. Biodiesel also has extraordinary lubricity; ie, its slipperiness reduces friction. I believe, it greatly reduces the need for the expensive special fuel additives used with regular diesel. Biodiesel has cost us from $2.30 to $2.99 per gallon. Regular diesel in the Bay Area now costs about $2.20 per gallon. Biodiesel is worth the diminishing premium, in more ways than one. Finally, when necessary, biodiesel and regular diesel can be used in the same tank without any problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 May 04 - 01:57 AM

We've had sort of a thing going similar to the bio-diesel thing with "gasohol." For a while there was a small subsidy for grain alcohol production for use in motor fuels. Then the subsidy went away. Then the subsidy came back. Then the subsidy got changed. Then the rules on who can get the subsidy got changed. etc.

Without a consistent policy, a farmer can't know whether to grow the crop for fuel, so there's never been more than a little of either - alcohol or biodiesel - available to be exploited by distributors or consumers.

There just isn't enough viable market to encourage producers (farmers) to grow the crops for either, and as long as the farmers don't grow it, there isn't enough supply for the refiners and distributers to set up to handle the stuff.

Often called a "lack of critical mass."

The commercial biodiesel is nearly all a standard diesel (petroleum) fuel with a relatively small amount of bio-product mixed in. Usually the bio- part is no more than about 20%. In similar manner, grain alcohol has been used mostly as an "additive" in petroleum fuels, with - again - not more than about 20% alcohol. Unmodified engines, designed for petroleum fuels, cannot safely use higher percentages of the bio additives, largely because of the elastomer seals and hoses, but also due to things like injector clogging, valve burning, etc.

The other side of the coin is that if you design the engines for bio fuels, they don't run as well on the more available petro fuels.

Again, it's not economically feasible for most vehicle manufacturers to set up to make the engines for high bio-content fuels because of the small market. Critical mass again.

Much of the recent push for "alternative transportation systems" has been directed more toward reductions in emissions and in reduction in the total amount of fuel used with relatively little work being done directly on straight "alternate fuels." Substituting bio- fuels for petroleum fuels does not significantly improve the pollution problems associated with combustion fueled transportation. It just trades an overconsumption of petroleum for an overconsumption (and discharge of products from) a somewhat more expensive (currently) fuel.

The bio- oils and fermentables to make these "alternate fuels" are not just "free for the picking." The "sludge" from fermenting enough grain to make a gallon of alcohol, or the hulls left from squeezing the "juice" out of oilseed, are just as objectionable as the tars left over from distilling a gallon of gasoline - if you have to find a place to put them.

It's not an "instant solution" to anything, except in niche applications, at the present time.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 May 04 - 10:43 PM

Well now, JiK --

You start making your own ethanol for fuel and the BATF is gonna be on you like stink on...you know what. They used to give out licenses that allowed you to make a certain amount of ethanol for fuel, but no more and not for some time. Seems like the methanol used for fuel is chemically identical as the methanol used for drinking, and the Government has been taking THAT since the Civil War.

Assuming that you could get a license to make methanol for fuel -- it's not impossible, but it is very difficult -- you have to account for all of it AND mix it with gasoline right away (they figure that you won't drink it if it's mixed with gasoline, and I suspect that they're right). Seems to me to be a waste of good drinkin' alcohol, unless you're one of the big ethanol producing companies.

Now, remember, ethanol is produced from grain. Grain. Same stuff that feeds cows and chickens and people. Every grain of grain used to make ethanol isn't feeding folks. (You can feed the mash residue to pigs -- they seem to like it.)

You could take biomass -- leaves, trees, lawn litter, etc. -- and convert it to methanol, or wood alcohol. But it's a much more involved process and you can't feed the residue to much of anything.

Hydrogen could be the answer, if it were made from water electrolyzed by solar power. Or we could get crackin' on getting REAL power from the sun and run our vehicles on 'lectricity.

But why stop there? What's needed is a package deal, one that includes mass transit, trains, barges, and other mass movers instead of being so dependent upon trucks and cars. Even airships.... In short, a "thinking outside the box."

Lots of things are made from petroleum -- aspirin, plastics, asphalt, you name it. The supply is finite; we've know that since the '70s. The time in which we can search for alternatives is quickly running out. Let's same the petrol for those things we have to have it for and look for other fuels and transportation ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 May 04 - 11:51 PM

or how about CS rather than BS. And just think, Spaw could self power his own vehicle.

Methane is Sweet as a Nut

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:12 PM

Biofuels 'Emit More Greenhouse Gases than Fossil Fuels'

A team of researchers led by Nobel-prize winning chemist Paul Crutzen ... are warning that the cure could end up being worse than the disease.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 03:02 PM

If you would like to find out about a family of products which reduces emissions and improves mpg, PM me.

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 03:13 PM

I have an aquaintance who believes in everythingfrom tree hugging to saving the whales to organic everything and of course biodiesel as well to fuel his environmentally healthy Peugeot diesel. He uses leftovers from fast food joints who are happy to be rid of it. He also has a holistic doctor who prescribes used cooking oil as an aid to male erectile dysfuntion problems. Typically my friend claims it works too just like the biodiesel. His only problem is that when he fires up the Peugeot or goes past McDonald's he gets a boner.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 04:27 PM

Just to let everyone know, i have run a Ford Transit 2.5 litre Diesel van backwards and forwards between Spain and the U.K for the last 3 years, i use a half mixture of Diesel and vegetable oil, i save around 160 euros per trip. I have never had any problems at all, the only things you need to be carefull are that very cold weather can make the oil solidify, and that if you run the engine with just oil, you might need to replace the fuel pump with a modified one as the stem of the rotar might be too weak and snap, but if you do a half and half measure it will be fine.
Any cooking oils will work fine, the reason they dont let you know is that they cant put the tax on it, and it will take away any legitimacy for wars. Its environmentally friendly fully renewable energy, and with modern Diesel engines, (In America you wont know about this). the perfomance is very rapidly becoming as good as petrol, i.e the Skoda Octavia VRS Diesel puts out 170 BHP.

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: PMB
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 04:32 AM

Here's another lot of products to reduce mpg and emissions:

Travel less
Walk more
Use public transport when possible
Use trains rather than fly
Dress warmer in winter and turn the heating down, and only heat the rooms you need.
Buy from local shops instead of driving miles to a shopping centre
Don't waste energy- light your farts.

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: Schantieman
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 09:50 AM

Rapaire - it ain't methanol, but ethanol that's the alcohol in booze and in "gasohol".   Methanol will certainly burn but ought to have about half the energy content of ethanol (since the molecules are smaller). And don't drink it, or you'll go blind. Really!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: pdq
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 10:28 AM

" Methanol will certainly burn but ought to have about half the energy content of ethanol (since the molecules are smaller)."

Actually, the energy density of alcohols is about half that of gasoline, but similar to each other. Methanol is used in US for motorsports, transportation and industry. Rather neat that a methanol factory can produce it's own energy for heat, electricity, transportation and equipment operation, making it energy self-sufficient.

Ethanol works a bit better with current engine designs than does methanol and is better in cold weather. If an engine is designed around the use of methanol, it is slightly more efficient than ethanol.

Subject: RE: BS: Biodiesel
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 10:31 AM

You know, they didn't tell me it was the methanol sending me blind...