Is Folk Music in decline??

Subject: Review: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 May 04 - 01:46 PM

It has been said that true Folk music is in decline and being replaced by some mediocre modern day replacement which may be derived from the real thing but does not reflect the Tradition it did in centuries past. I personally don't feel that is true, do you??

Subject: RE: Review: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 04 - 01:49 PM

Nope!

Subject: RE: Review: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: emjay
Date: 22 May 04 - 01:55 PM

I'm sure if we had been around one or two hundred years ago there would have been a lot of trash that would have had us despairing of the music being made. What survives probably has survived because it was the best. There will be music surviving from these times as well. Think of some of the wonderful "folk songs" that have been written in the past ten or twenty or fifty years, and more from our generations may endure because of its wide circulation.
Woody Guthrie, Jimmy Driftwood, Stan Rogers, Pete Seeger, Eric Bogle, and so many more.

Subject: RE: Review: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 May 04 - 02:12 PM

To be honest, I'm reaching a point where I don't know what folk music is. We are all fully aware that the definition of folk is a non starter (unless you want 1000 post thread with every contributer expressing a different view) but I'm struggling to see it beyond that...

On bad days, much can just seem false to me. At worst, I wonder whether we have just created some sort of fashion for a supposedly educated section of the population to have as a minority interest and lost touch with folk years ago. On good days, I may find fantastic tunes and songs out there, love a session and wish others did too!

Jon

Subject: RE: Review: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: breezy
Date: 22 May 04 - 03:00 PM

its here, but its a secret.

separate the wheat from the chaff so that more wheat is eaten.

So promote clubs as opposed to free sessions!!!!!

running for cover.

Subject: RE: Review: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: Paul G.
Date: 22 May 04 - 03:46 PM

I have not posted in a very long time, but I am compelled to here --- All things evolve. It's the way of the world. Folk music is no exception -- in fact, the folk "process" is a sort of evolution as the tradition is passed from generation to generation. Traditional folk has produced a variety of related branches (bluegrass, contemporary singer-songwriter, etc...). It's not about demise, in my opinion, it's about change. In nature, things change to survive -- adapt to new environments. The good stuff will pass natural selection's test and carry on -- the rest will pass into history's memory...

Cheers -- pg

Subject: RE: Review: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: John Robinson (aka Cittern)
Date: 22 May 04 - 04:16 PM

Maybe you should start using the word "traditional" in place of the word "folk"?

I am increasingly becoming convinced that the arguments (which rage endlessly on websites and in clubs) about what is/isn't "folk" are basically down to confused terminology.

The word "folk" has evolved to mean such a wide range of music that it no longer means what many people wish it would mean.

We can start with the clubs. The term "folk club" tells me very little about a club. The following terms tell me a lot more, and in some cases would stop me from attending, or have me travelling long distances to attend:

Traditional Music Club
Singers Club
Acoustic Music Concert Club
English Music Club

etc
etc

To answer the original question, I think the answer is a resounding no, however I look at it.

If "folk" means acoustic music - including contemporary music - then the scene has never been healthier. Witness the success of Kathryn Williams, the upcoming Angie Palmer, Gillian Welch etc etc etc. And take a look at Julie Ellison's gig list - OK we have a quiet June while we do some work in the studio - but look at the rest of the year and the archive. Gigs across the UK in venues ranging from smokey pubs and arts centres. Is this decline? No.

If "folk" means traditional English music, just think of the work that Eliza Carthy and Spiers/Boden are doing. Is this decline? No.

If "folk" means singers clubs, well I heard last week that Rivelin Folk Club had 27 singers at a recent session - Is this decline? No.

If "folk" means an environment which combines professional performers with amateur performers (young and old) then look at the success of the Blah Bar gigs in Barnsley. Is this decline? No.

Sorry - I think I had a bit of a rant there. Oops ! Must chill by putting on the Bob Harris show - there may even be some "folk" music ...

All the best
John Robinson
http://www.JulieEllison.co.uk

Subject: RE: Review: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 May 04 - 04:23 PM

Last night, I made my twice-a-year trip to a big music store in the San Francisco area, looking for traditional folk music recordings. I tell ya, it keeps getting harder and harder to find folk music in the folk music section there. I find more traditional stuff in the Country section nowaways. In the folk section, I find a lot of navel contemplation stuff, and not much that's interesting.
Still, I got some good stuff, and I broke down and bought the Watersons box set.
As long as there are Watersons and Carthys, there will be folk music.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Review: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 04 - 04:24 PM

I like what I like, and that's that. Don't matter to me how it's categorized. If I don't like it, I don't listen to it.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 22 May 04 - 09:07 PM

Joe, it's a shame the pickin's are thin, but to me the whole point of folk music is it's homemade and you don't have to be a star or commercial to sing it your ownself or with yer friends. So the heck with 'em.

But if you really want CDs, I wouldn't dream of looking for folk in a store. The real stuff is being put out on little card tables at festivals. So isn't that a good excuse to plan some festival trips :-)

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 May 04 - 09:22 PM

Let me pose this question.

If you were a singer of traditional folk music and made recordings for sale on CD, you really shouldn't be obsessed with how many you sold and how much money you made, should you?

Anyone see what I'm getting at?

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 23 May 04 - 12:08 AM

Who said that true folk music is in decline? (Not a rhetorical question.)

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 23 May 04 - 12:39 AM

Like Joe said, much of what is being written today as folk can be classified as navel contemplation, but there are still some quality songs amid the crap. Time will eventually weed out the bad and leave the good.

Even those of us that write modern folksongs will, undoubtably, be surprised at which of our creations (if any) will stand the test of time. There are traditional songs which are widely sung today that were winnowed out of the mass of songs which were written long ago.

Folk music will always be with us. Its popularity will rise and fall for various reasons, but it will go on. As long as songwriters continue to write them there will be enough good songs to keep folk music alive and well. Hopefully, one or two of mine will be considered worth keeping around long after I'm gone.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: Mudjack
Date: 23 May 04 - 01:31 AM

There is more today than I can ever imagine. (Not counting the Pop folk of the sixties.)
I hear folk music at music camps here in the northwest and then begin to think about the other regions and realize that there is all kinds that carry on the traditions as well as music forms that are not traditional.
I don't think it is declining.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: GUEST,harlowpoet
Date: 23 May 04 - 01:56 AM

As long as there are people singing and playing there will always be folk music.

The post about folk music evolving could equally mean changing.

Speaking as a creationist, you can'( take something away once its been created, therefore you can only ever add to the tradition. It isn't in decline. Its probably always been a minority interesty, then again, so are most things.

It doesn't mean it hasn't had its glory days, and that there are glory days to come.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 May 04 - 04:14 AM

Folk music is just doing what it has always done, changing to suit the times.
We will always have folk music.

eric

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 May 04 - 04:24 AM

There was always navel-gazing stuff written. It just didn't make it beyond its era/borders. No point comparing the polished jewels of the past with the current haul from the mine of creativity and declaring the latter crap. If anything, more quantity is being produced today by a greater number of writers, because it is easier to do so, and because the education levels are higher than say 200 years ago (i.e. people can read and write and have many more stimuli). Somewhere in that quantity there are new jewels. The test of time will identify them, polish them, and 100 years from now no doubt someone will compare them to future creativity hauls and declare the newer stuff crap - just as wrongly.

Harlowpoet's got it right.

As long as someone sings a song,
As long as someone listens;
As sure as summer follows spring
And sun will rise and set,
And even when we are long gone
This story's never ending.
As long as someone sings a song
It isn't over yet.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: Maryrrf
Date: 23 May 04 - 09:21 AM

It's getting harder to find in the mainstream (i.e. Tower records, etc.) but there's loads of wonderful stuff available if you look for it. I find most of the music I listen to by surfing the net and finding CD's to order or browsing the offerings at festivals. The good thing is that now producing a quality CD is not so difficult to do - it can even be done at home on a computer!) so loads of artists who aren't mainstream and don't want to be can get their music out to the niche who is looking for true "folk" music. I won't get into the definition of what that is, I know what I look for and I guess others do as well so let's not argue! Oh and the other thing is that they've re-issued on CD so many of the older recordings - including lots of field recordings of source singers, and now that we have the internet it isn't necessary to find a specialty store nearby to purchase them. Commercial TV and radio - well occasionally but if you had to judge the state of things by that then traditional folk would appear to be non existant. I'd say it's thriving for those who seek it out!

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 23 May 04 - 11:00 AM

There seems to be more recordings out and being released all the time under the folk unbrella, than there was in the folk boom. There sometimes seems to be more people performing than there are places they can play. I think a lot of folk happens under the radar, which is why you can't find folk CD's in big store.

I worked in a CD store for awhile that liked to stock folk recordings. However while I thought they stocked a good number of singer-songwriters, their idea of balancing traditional old-time was to have one CD of the New Lost City Ramblers and one by Jody Stecher and Kate Brislin. You could find more traditional celtic music in the world section. Some was the "heavy reverb, misty voices" stuff, but they also had some of the "real" stuff. I couldn't quarrel with the store stocking a lot of contemporary folk, that's what people came in to buy.

I've seen a few more live performances recently reminding me of why I really like folk music. I was riveted in my seat watching Tim Grimm playing in a small venue in Evanston. A few weeks later Bill Camplin was doing stunning re-workings of Dylan songs and keeping everyone spellbound with his setting of of them. And anytime I can see Bob Bovee & Gail Heil is all right with me.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 May 04 - 11:04 AM

Maybe you should start using the word "traditional" in place of the word "folk"?

A firm, unequivocal "Depends".

Whose tradition? From where? From when?

Different population groups have their own traditions, inherited or developing.

Different areas--not just from country to country but from county to county, city to city--even "folk club" to "folk club--have their own traditions.

And any or all of these are in the process of change over time. So when we say "traditional" may refer to what has been done for the last twenty years, or it may be what was done two hundred years ago.

And within any of these traditions there are variances.

The upshot of it is, "traditional" is (to my mind) no more specific, or no more neutral, than "folk".

Get out there and play what you like, the best you can.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 May 04 - 11:17 AM

remission

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: Big Jim from Jackson
Date: 23 May 04 - 11:42 AM

All across the various countries represented in this thread there are any number of people who are virtuallly driven to create music. Much of it is quite good. Those songs that speak to the universal condition will be picked up and carried forward to the next generation. Much that is being writen by Staines, Keelaghan, Brodsky, et al (I should have included some of the ladies)is topical and one would think this would cause it to fade, but weren't songs like "Drill ye Tarriers", "Sam Hall", and "John Henry" topical in their time? Yet they have survived.
    As long as folks gather in houses to play and entertain themselves, as long as people attend festivals and sit around swaping songs, as long as independent singers do gigs in parks and wineries and put their own recordings out for sale,there will surely be folk music.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 May 04 - 11:46 AM

Maryrrf, why would you look for folk in the mainstream anyway? Even in the heyday of the revival, you could only get some of folk on mainstream. The majority remained underground, where it's always been. It thrives there. It's "alternative", and that is part of its attraction.

So, next time you go to Tower Records, wear a dirty raincoat, adopt a suspicious and slightly conspiratorial attitude, and ask the spotty person behind the counter in all seriousness: "I can see the stuff on the shelves, that's for the sheep; but do you have any, you know, like "folk"?

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: s6k
Date: 23 May 04 - 12:08 PM

well we still have people like john martyn, dylan, christy moore, etc, we also have people like kate rusby, and eliza carthy bringing it into the mainstream, and are still doing well, kate rusby even just got a dvd release, which is a great dvd by the way.

and aslo we are getting some newer artists who have come from folk, eg., Katie Melua, polly paulusma, thea gilmore, etc. no not in decline! but then again, it was never the most popular type of music and never will be with the crap pop we have now focused on image.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 May 04 - 12:15 PM

Folk, as mainstream pop, seems to be pretty well defunct. Which, IMHO, isn't a bad thing. On t'other hand, there's probably more folk recordings (ranging from hard core trad to hard core rock) available than ever before. You local music storee may not carry them, boy outfits like CAMSCO and Folk-Legacy certainly do. And, while you my not hear as much folk onstage and on the air as you did thirty years ago, I'm not sure that those were ever a good venue for folk music in th first place.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 May 04 - 12:29 PM

Martin Gibson said, in part:

If you were a singer of traditional folk music and made recordings for sale on CD, you really shouldn't be obsessed with how many you sold and how much money you made, should you?

Well, as a singer of traditional (and some not so traditional) folk songs, I won't say "obsessed", but I sure would like to sell enough of my CD, The Real Story! to get back something like my production costs. Forget about "how much money you made", because I didn't and don't expect to make a profit.

Just not-so-incidentally, those who might want to contribute to the noble cause of covering the production costs could send me $14 for my 23-song CD, The Real Story!. All the recipients to date (at least those that I've heard from) have stated high satisfaction.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 23 May 04 - 01:29 PM

Some very good stuff on here - for once I'm finding it difficult, nay impossible, to find anything to argue with! (LOL).

I had a conversation a few weeks ago with Allan Taylor about this very question, (for you non-UK people, Allan's a highly talented and respected British singer/guitarist/songwriter who's been around since the folk-boom of the late 60s and early 70s - not a personal friend of mine, but someone who's happy to meet and talk with his fans) and he expressed the view that he would be happy to know that just one of his songs passed into the tradition for future generations (in fact I'm pretty sure that 'Roll On The Day' will), and that most writers would settle for that. In other words, he was making the same point that quite a few others have made on this thread - that the songs we regard today as 'traditional' are just the top layer of songs composed in days gone by, the best ones, the ones that had that vital spark that prevented them from fading into oblivion.

Why should folk music be in decline when we have so many fine performers and writers whose work, through the technical advances of the last century, is so much easier to present to the world at large nowadays? As long as there are people around to sing the songs, they'll live on and they'll be joined by the cream of contemporary writing as it's assimilated into tradition. IMHO

Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 04 - 04:15 PM

Beautiful poem (song) El Greko:

"As long as someone sings a song,
As long as someone listens;
As sure as summer follows spring
And sun will rise and set,
And even when we are long gone
This story's never ending.
As long as someone sings a song
It isn't over yet."

Who's the author? It is great.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 23 May 04 - 06:07 PM

Yes, I think the title of this thread as stated is correct. But the question doesn't hit the crux of the problem.

The songs now do reflect the times. These are shallower times, and therefore songs at the low end of the bell curve are shallower than other moments on my timeline as I see it. That is the crux of this situation. And that's the reason for the decline.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 May 04 - 06:37 PM

Brucie,

Thank you - that is the chorus. The full song is here...I wrote it as a birthday song for the Herga folk club, on its 39th birthday (the number can be updated). Herga is the longest single-venue folk club in England - at the Royal Oak, Wealdstone, Middx since 1963. Mac bellner asked for it, and I understand that there is a hotel band in Indianapolis now that uses it on Saturdays instead of the normal birthday song, to sing to any restaurant guests celebrating their birthday.

"As long as someone sings a song"
George Papavgeris, April 2002

For many years I've had a friend,
(thirty nine and counting)
Together many times we've spent
And this I won't forget.
A song he had for everyone
(thirty nine and counting)
A better friend under the sun
No-one could ever get.

We shared much pleasure through the years
(thirty nine and counting)
A lot of laughter and some tears
And this I won't forget.
Together places we have been
(thirty nine and counting)
And many wonders we have seen
And many folks we've met.

And stories he had lots to tell
(thirty nine and counting)
Of angry sea and grassy fell
And these I won't forget.
Of kings and queens and gold and pearls
(thirty nine and counting)
And those with nothing in this world
And wars with many dead.

And hundreds knocked upon his door
(thirty nine and counting)
He cared as much for rich and poor
And this I won't forget.
Like branches of a royal oak
(thirty nine and counting)
To all provides both rest and cloak
And equally accepts.

(chorus - after each verse)
As long as someone sings a song
As long as someone listens,
As sure as summer follows spring
And sun will rise and set,
And even when we are long gone
This story's never ending.
As long as someone sings a song
It isn't over yet.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: GUEST,Johan Benn.
Date: 23 May 04 - 06:40 PM

American folk music is in decline because the greats are no longer
performing, or have been absorbed into popular music.
English folk music was always a minority thing, even in the days
of the folk boom in England, and remains so.
Irish and to a lesser extent Scottish folk music, has been swept
under the umbrella of CELTIC, and in this form has dominated the
world.
Yes. Folk music is in decline, but let's enjoy what's left to enjoy.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: Hrothgar
Date: 23 May 04 - 09:33 PM

The good traditional songs will survive.

The good contemporary songs will survive.

But, gee, isn't there a lot of chaff to be winnowed out!

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 May 04 - 10:40 PM

Well, yes; and, as ever, it depends what we mean by "folk music" or even "traditional folk music"; but let's not go there this time. Fact is, there are lots of people out there doing it. Young as well as not-so-young. Mostly it's below the radar, as Phil said. Ever since it got spotted as a "vanishing tradition" (a couple of centuries or more ago) it's been reported dying -or dead- on a regular basis, but in spite of the folk who would like it to be defunct so they could moan about collectors "putting it in glass cases" (that was never, ever, the intention; nor, I am convinced, the result), it still turns up in surprisingly rude health.

Of course it changes with time. The most successful changes are probably the gradual or accidental rather than the deliberate, self-conscious ones, but, like everything else, only time will tell on that score. Meanwhile, it's still there; and you can catch it lurking about in pubs not far from where I live, for instance, and doubtless in a great many other places, too; though not always before official closing time.

Part of the problem of perception may be that "folk music" was, briefly, seen by the big record companies as a good investment and marketable commodity (late 1950s to early 1970s, more or less). A lot of things that had nothing whatever to do with the genre were marketed under that heading then, and we're still living with the misapprehensions consequent upon that, including the invention of a whole series of separate "celtic" idioms. "Folk" doesn't make much money for them now (the mainly fake "celtic" stuff is presently the money-spinner); so from the point of view of the industry, and of the less-well-informed media pundit, it is certainly "in decline".

In the old days there was a thriving market in horse-shit. There are not so many horses out on the streets nowadays. There's still plenty of horse-shit to be had, though, if you know where to look; and I still regularly have to hop over the stuff in the biggish city where I live (though it may have dropped out of the sky for all I know). Not an elegant analogy, perhaps; but maybe not too far off the mark, nevertheless.

Subject: RE: Is Folk Music in decline??
From: emjay
Date: 24 May 04 - 02:25 AM

You are just too young! I remember going into a record store and looking through racks of 78s trying to find anything that was vaguely folky. Burl Ives and Ed McCurdy were on the radio, also some western and some "hillbilly" and purists then were sneering at the Carters and Roy Acuff and Bill Monroe. Some of them sound pretty good to us now, but we are probably missing others who perform today.
I found good things here and there. The Weavers were popular for a while, then they were blacklisted. Not much was heard on the radio until the folk revival in the 60s. If that sometimes seemed slick and polished it at least gave us hope. And I thought "Hootenany' on television was a real delight.
I can go into most music stores today and find a lot more good traditional music, I can go to concerts large and small and buy cds from the performers. I have more good music to listen to than I ever dreamed of, and when I read what is posted on song challenges here, I am really encouraged. I have read some really good things right here and I believe people will continue to make music in the old "tradition" as they create new ones.