BS: PBS Liberal?

Subject: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 10:42 AM

I don't think so.

Tucker Carlson: Just 'Right' for PBS?

I'd like to see him spank Ann Coulter vigorously every once in a while...

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 10:50 AM

According to a study quoted in a recent US News & World Report, PBS is, indeed, liberal.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 10:54 AM

Are we discussing PBS, the radio and television stations largely funded by public subscription, or NPR, the slightly left of center radio network? Or PRI, which is something else yet again?

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 10:59 AM

I think it's PBS, artbrooks, and CPB.

beardedbruce, could you please provide a link or something to the study you mention?

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 11:22 AM

I wish I could- I read the article in an office while waiting. I think it was in the last month or so ( the issue). Sorry I don't have more info. The study used several different calibrations for "conservative" and "liberal"

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 11:37 AM

CarolC, you really are too intelligent to engage in this sort of hit-and-run right/left play right into the hands of the corporate media thing.

As a regular viewer of PBS, I can say it is exactly these kinds of 'conventional journalistic punditry' stories that are the problem, and the techniques now commonly used by corporate and media mogul owned journalism outlets, to distort reality and confuse the public. PBS has Bill Moyers AND the McLaughlin Group. NOVA is a conservative, conventional science show, and the Frontline documentaries, more often than not, are conservative and conventional too. It isn't like they are showing 'Bowling for Columbine' or 'The Fog of War' or 'Capturing the Friedmans'.

The real story behind Tucker Carlson getting his own show on PBS is whether PBS is guilty of fostering nepotism, not whether PBS is liberal or conservative.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 11:43 AM

I know GUEST, 23 Jun 04 - 11:37 AM, I just couldn't pass up an opportunity to post that line about spanking Ann Coulter ;-)

But I really do disagree with the premise that any of the "public" broadcasting networks are really "liberal". I see them as just as much a part of the corporate machine as the major networks and the cable networks.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 11:58 AM

I liked the Ann Coulter line too, so don't think the humor is lost on me, but...

The whole liberal/conservative 'debate' is phony and disingenuous, in the same way that the smear campaigns of the right are. Like the campaign against 'Fairenheit 9/11' being a well funded Republican media campaign being run by a Republican public relations firm, and passed off as being a grassroots effort by ordinary Americans.

Why play right into the radical right's liberal/conservative agenda?

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 12:28 PM

Well, I guess I don't see the agenda being exclusively the domain of what you call the "radical right". I think that the people who really pull the strings are in no way aligned with either the "right" or the "left" ("right" and "left" being terms I see as illusory staw-men anyway, that exist only for the purpose exerting control over people and their thought processes).

And believe it or not, I have a sneaking suspicion that the people you call the "radical right" really would like to see Kerry win the presidency this time around because Bush is no longer a viable "war president" (and they still have a few countries left on their list of ones they'd like to "preemptively" interfere with). I've been noticing signs of this in the tone of the FoxNews network of late.

I have no problem with showing the "Public Broadcasting" agendas for what they really are. They do not serve my interests any more than the "conservative media" do.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 12:36 PM

Well, I'll just say that over the last 3 years I find less and less I agree with in listening to PBS. Diane Rhyeme and Cojo Namb are prime examples of what I see as an about face toward the right. I used to enjoy their programs but no more. I think, seeing as they recieve money from the feds, that they too have knuckled under to the Bush pressure to *"shut the heck up unless you agree with us. End of discussion."*...

The progressive movement is definately hurting when it comes to media. Other than Pacifica, Boss Hog has the rest of it by the throat.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 12:41 PM

I don't disagree with your view that the ruling elite that controls the mass media doesn't see the world in right/left, conservative/liberal, red/blue dichotomous terms. Or that they would prefer Kerry as their war president to Bush, because Bush is no longer tenable to the electorate. The ruling elite, like the Lenin style proletariat, sees the world strictly in terms of it's own self-interest.

But the creation of those false dichotomies are still the ruling elite's main tactic being used right now to divide and conquer, and the radical right are their primary lackeys.

So in that sense, your choice of thread title still DOES play into the ruling elite's radical right agenda in terms of it's tactics, imnsho.

Please know that I'm not trying to condemn you for it. I'm just trying to get you to think about the ways attempts to subvert the tactics the ruling elite is using against us, often backfires and undermines our ability to further the enlightened self-interests of independent thinkers more concerned with the common good than their own bottom line.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 01:19 PM

So in that sense, your choice of thread title still DOES play into the ruling elite's radical right agenda in terms of it's tactics, imnsho.

I guess this is where we disagree. The title of the thread suggests that PBS is not liberal. If we are discarding terms like "liberal" and "conservative", then it is most certainly correct to say that PBS is not "liberal".

And as long as people labor under the illusion that the "Public" media is in any way more independent than the rest of the media, the string pullers will be able to use it to their advantage. I don't see how this helps the enlightened self-interest of anyone.

So sure, let's shine the light of honesty on all of our media. PBS is neither "liberal" nor "conservative". It is also not in any way independent, or "public".

Bobert, I suggest you check out this site: www.worldlinktv.org

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 01:31 PM

I agree wholeheartedly that PBS is no different from other mainstream news organizations, and that use of the liberal/conservative divide and conquer tactic should be discarded.

Which is why I called you on it.

So, does this mean we agree that you can stop doing it now? :)

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 01:43 PM

I don't actually agree that I was doing it in the first place.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: DougR
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 01:44 PM

Bobert: how you could possible see ANYTHING conservative about Diane Rheim is well beyond my realm of comprehension. I'm confident she would be insulted were she to know you regard her as a conservative, and I must admit that I am a bit too.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 03:21 PM

These days, merely telling the truth is enough to get you labeled "liberal."

Actually, I rather like Tucker Carlson, compared to most other conservatives. At least he's civil, has some integrity, and has a smidgen of a sense of humor. (The only other media conservative I like is Ben Stein.) He doesn't try to bludgeon his opponents with bluster and ridiculous accusations like so many other media conservatives like Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, et al, which is probably exactly why some conservatives don't like him.

I used to watch "Spin Room," which was pretty lame, but it was the only game in town, if you liked your politics served up with a bit of humor. Now I much prefer "The Daily Show" on Comedy Central. (I don't find Leno, Letterman, Mark Russell, or Saturday Night Live as satisfying because their politics is just too shallow.)

As far as giving conservatives some "ownership" of PBS, that's fine, but who's going to give liberals some ownership of Fox News, CNBC, etc.?

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 03:27 PM

BTW, I think Ann Coulter could easily beat up Tucker Carlson. Anybody disagree with me on that one?

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 03:34 PM

Last night on The News Hour with Jim Lehrer, there was a segment showing and then analyzing commercials run by Bush, Kerry, and the various organizations supporting one candidate or the other. They thoroughly ripped up most of these commercials, pointing out inaccuracies, distortions, and outright lies. Kerry and his supporting organizations (such as MoveOn) took just as many hits as Bush and his supporters. The general sense one got out of this is "don't get taken in by any of this crap!"

I doubt very seriously that anything on Fox News would be anywhere near this "fair and balanced." And certainly nothing from folks like Rush.

As Jim says, "These days, merely telling the truth is enough to get you labeled 'liberal.'"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 04:25 PM

JtS agrees with me about Coulter being able to beat up Carlson. But he says the match he'd really like to see would be between Coulter and Mary Matalin. His money's on Matalin... mine's on Coulter.

He said a match between Michael Moore and Tucker Carlson could be interesting. He said the two of them could probably be in the ring for an hour and neither of them would get hurt. We both think that Moore could easily take out Carlson, but he'd have to catch him first.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 05:42 PM

Don, I heard that Jim Lehrer report featuring the guy from the Annenberg School of Communication.

I think he was wrong as well. First of all, he maintained that the oil wells off the coast of Florida were about one hundred miles off shore. This would cause considerable damage to the Florida coastline should something happen. 100 miles isn't that far.

As to Halliburton, whether they are acting legally or not is anyone's guess. It could be said that a mafia boss who gets off on a technicality was also "acting legally".

As to the indictment of corporate violators being more under Bush, I don't see any of them doing time. Ken Lay? Skelling? They are not being investigated to the fullest because the Bush Administration is on their side. He blusters a lot about them but it's all surface. It follows the Bush pattern. Put on a show with words and do exactly the opposite. It's a display turkey and he didn't land the plane onto the aircraft carrier. His daddy took care of a lot of his success. Renquist was a GHW Bush appointee.

Kerry, on the other hand, has never said that he was a man of the people as the guy from Annenberg said. Kerry acknowledges his "noblesse oblige" but he is concerned about the average citizen unlike Bush who doesn't give a damn about them. Veteran benefits cut, no public school left behind, the skies filled with pollutants. Kerry does care about veteran's benefits and military families since he is a distinguished veteran unlike Bush whose daddy got him out of it.

Most of the folks who criticize Kerry as a "Winter Soldier" wouldn't have the guts to do what he had to do during Vietnam and the fact that he grew to believe that it was wrong to support that war doesn't make him a flip-flopper.
He is not idealogically rigid and disassociated from what's going on in the world.

You want propaganda? Just sit through a Bush press briefing or TV interview. "International law? I better call my lawyer." Sounds like a mafia don to me.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 06:31 PM

Frank: What does your post have to do with Tucker Carlson, or whether PBS is liberal or not? Did you post to the wrong thread?

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 07:57 PM

That's a pretty rude question, Jim Dixon. Not that anyone needs another poster to defend them, but hell, it is obvious that he is responding to Don Firth.

As to the "fact" of a liberal media that CarolC seems to want to challenge...

I trust the Pew Research polls, and believe them to be the most credible US polling organization. Here are their latest results on the liberal/conservative media question, from the Editor and Publisher website:

Pew Survey Finds Moderates, Liberals Dominate News Outlets

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 08:31 PM

What a load of hot air. First you have to accept the terms the Pew people are using. If you ask ten people who consider themselves "conservative" what it means to be a conservative, you'll get 7 1/2 different answers. If you ask ten "liberals" what it means to be a liberal, you'll get 7 3/4 or maybe even eight different answers. The Pew poll means nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 08:36 PM

CarolC: Thanks fir the website...

DougR: I guess that shows how much of a gap is between out two perspectives. Diane Rhiem moved further to the right by the day. If you think she is liberal, find a Pacifica sation and listen to about 10 minutes of Democracy Now and you'll see where I'm coming from on this one...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 08:58 PM

I think a lot of this is a matter of perspective. PBS 'tries' to be balanced, which makes them seem LEFT to anyone on the far right.."You're either with us, or against us" is the phrase that comes to mind.

and if you LIKE Pacifica, PBS and Diane Rhiem must seem close to G. Bush by comparison....but Kojo? nawwww.....

In these 'interesting' times, the middle of the road is no man's land, where both side take pot-shots at you.

(and I'd pay good money to see Ann Coulter spanked by ANYONE)

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 10:09 PM

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 10:37 PM

I propose we have Gargoyle spank Dear Annie.

I suggested spanking games in the 'Games for Pirate Party' thread, but I fear I wasn't taken seriously. Sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 04:56 PM

From a website I just discovered, Media Matters for America, an organization that checks up on media conservatives:

May 26: Tucker Carlson on Dems' outreach to "gays, lesbians, and cross-dressers"
June 17: PBS's new weekly standard: Tucker Carlson; An unfiltered Media Matters for America analysis of the new PBS host
June 18: Ken Starr to appear on premiere episode of PBS's Tucker Carlson: Unfiltered
June 22: Tucker Carlson's filter
June 30: PBS's Tucker Carlson distorted Gray Lady report on black-and-white issues at Harvard

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 05:04 PM

Let's all watch wrestling instead!

Or how about a Steven Segal movie on TNT.

Is Antique Roadshow on PBS a liberal or conservative show?

In other words, who cares?

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 06:04 PM

Bread and circuses, right Martin?

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:30 PM

More like three day old bread and a cheap carnival.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:41 PM

So who's your money on... Coulter or Matalin?

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 03:54 PM

There have been many polls taken about this issue. They don't all agree.
Besides, one thing has to be remembered about polls. They change from day to day and hour to hour. They can't be definitive.

I don't find the PBS stations particularly liberal since they rarely allow a liberal commentary to take place without a refutation either by the interviewer or another more reactionary type. NPR is not especially liberal either.

The only show that we get down here in Georgia on PBS (TV) that is liberal is Bill Moyer's show "Now". Also, ITN through the BBC seems to have more unflitered and less biased news than does programs that repute to be more liberal such as Lehrer's "News Hour".

Pacifica News is liberal but is not on NPR. Same for AirAmerica.

Much of the corporate control of PBS or National Public Radio does not come from liberal sources. It comes from Republicans.

CarolC:
I don't know where Kerry is on the issue of "conscription". I don't get it that he wants to ensue with a policy of pre-emption. He has been highly critical of this in his speeches. I believe that from what I've heard him say live in his rallies is that he would like more UN and NATO support in Afghanistan and Iraq. Brahimi couldn't handle the puppet strings of the Bush Administation apparently. Chalabi is another puppet.

Kerry wants Halliburton out of the oil business in Iraq. I'm off the thread but I have to disagree that Bush and Kerry are alike. They aren't.

I don't believe that PBS or NPR are particularly balanced. Over the years, they have skewed to the right.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 04:16 PM

Well, Frank, Clinton waged a few wars during his presidency, only we didn't really call them wars as such. Hell, even the Vietnam War wasn't technically called a war. That one was waged as much by Democrats as Republicans. I think that Kerry would probably wage wars that wouldn't be called wars, just like most of his predecessors.

As far as conscription is concerned, I don't know. I think if the string pullers want conscription, they'll probably get conscription, regardless of who's in office.

Georgia Public TV is our local public TV also. We're just across the river from Columbus.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: John Hardly
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 05:05 PM

The reason you know that PBS is liberal leaning is because the NEVER let a liberal commentary on there. Period. They have the right and then they have orthodoxy. *grin*

That was the most telling factoid in the Pew research -- that, though a considerable majority of those questioned could name conservative news outlets, fewer than 5% could name a liberal news outlet.

Those here don't name WWIR as liberal -- it's just political discussion. EVERYONE here agrees that MacLaughlin Group is conservative, though his panel is always 50/50.

And everyone here thinks that programs like Lehrer News hour is balanced because they usually include both sides on their panel -- but, just and with MacLaughlin's program, it is not the makeup of the panel that matters -- it's in who asks the questions.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 05:15 PM

So who's your money on, John, Coulter or Matalin?

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: John Hardly
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 06:19 PM

ohmygod, Matalin is WWF material. She makes me sweat like being cornered by a cobra.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 09:50 PM

When the question of which news organizations actually tilted left or right, there was one clear candidate: Fox News. Fully 69% of national journalists, and 42% of those at the local level, called Fox News "especially conservative." Next up was The New York Times, which about one in five labeled "especially liberal."

--article on the PEW study

That was the most telling factoid in the Pew research -- that, though a considerable majority of those questioned could name conservative news outlets, fewer than 5% could name a liberal news outlet.

--John Hardly

John, one in five is 20%. Not 5%. And they just mentioned "especially liberal". There is no mention of just plain old vanilla liberal.

Don't ever go into the field of statistics, John. Ok?

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 09:56 PM

In fact, all it really says is that The New York Times is second to Fox in terms of how many people mentioned it. They don't say anything at all about wheter or not other "liberal" news outlets were mentioned by those who were questioned.

This really is a very good example of how these kinds of things can be distorted by pretty much anyone to promote whatever viewpoint they want to promote.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 10:12 PM

I have to say John that the most "telling" thing about that factoid is how you distroted it. I know you well enough to vouch for you in that I don't think that you did it on purpose. But it does seem to display a consistant bias of yours.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: John Hardly
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 10:25 PM

actually, the most telling thing is that I hadn't read the article for several weeks and just didn't remember the exact numbers. But the quote pulled (above) isn't the one I was thinking of either. I found the article reprinted and commented on on three different sites and from that realized that most were not posting the entire results of the poll -- only that to which they wished to comment.

Really doesn't change my perspective though. I do think it's true that the left is at least slightly less able to discern bias that favors it than is the right of that which favors the right (most of us know that Fox is more right leaning). The right reads and views far more left leaning news on the whole than the left reads or views what comes from the right.

And it is also true, as I pointed out in my comparison of McLaughin vs Lehrer -- it isn't the makeup of the panel that matters. It's who controls the questioning.

But, ultimately, as I've said before, I don't WANT an unbiased media. I just want full disclosure. I don't want one side to be able to "report" their news from the comparative strength of the appearance of objectivity. Nobody is objective.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 10:34 PM

I agree with your last paragraph, John. I would definitely prefer full disclosure.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 12:32 AM

Thats just horse pooh, plain and simple. There is nothing telling about Pew. Even if there are some mystery results, in some hidden part of the article that you have read and we haven't in any case they polled the people working in the newsrooms not the folks pulling the strings. All major media is owned by or beholden to consumption driven corporations. Their only message is keep the status quo and buy buy buy. All that crap about left and right is just for our entertainment. Its just as real as professional wrestling.

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 04:19 AM

Who's Ann Coulter? Can I spank her vigorously? Or can we only watch her being spanked on PBS? Either way - it gets my vote;-)

Damn UK TV for not showing US PBS stuff. Sounds much more interesting than BBC2...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 10:58 AM

There are many people who would probably pay you to spank her, DtG. Bill D., for example, said he would pay good money to see ANYONE spank Ann Coulter. Make sure you wear a kevlar cup...

Ann Coulter

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 12:08 PM

Coulter vs. Matalin? Are you crazy.   I would much rather see Coutler vs Laura Ingram- especially if they would do that light beer commercial in a cat fight.   (When I think of Democratic woman I think of Reno, Allbright, Hillary, Ann Richards, Theresa- don't the democrats have any good looking woman?   Ingram was in playboy- reno would have ber best chance in popular mechanics)

The main event though would have to be the heavyweight division.   Michael Moore vs. Al Franken in a reinforced ring.   (No objection to a steel cage match if they promise to keep both of them locked up)

Lets see- in national elections repuplicans win the House, the Senate, the Governors and the Presidency yet 88% of the media reports to voting democratic.   And people on this forum content that the media is not biased to the left. You know what they say- there are only 3 kinds of people- those that are good at math and those that are not.   

Read Bernard Goldbergs book "Bias"

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 12:21 PM

Now there's a real question. Are there any good looking Democrat women? Any Democrats got an answer for Brother Larry?

JtS read Goldberg's book. He said Goldberg just sounded hurt and bitter because Rather gets all the attention. I propose a grudge match between Goldberg and Rather.

Who's your money on, Larry K? Goldberg or Rather?

Subject: RE: BS: PBS Liberal?
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 12:33 PM

BTW, Ingram wouldn't stand a chance with Coulter. I bet she wouldn't even make it through one round.