BS: It sucks to get yelled at.

Subject: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 10:37 PM

Have you ever noticed that the ones that start yelling and getting all defensive are the same ones that accuse the person they're yelling at of yelling and being defensive?

Is this what they call "adding insult to injury"? I guess it's a good tactic, because it always works on me. On moment I'm holding my ground like an adult, next moment I'm struggling not to get sidetracked into defending myself against the accusation of being defensive and out of control.

Is there somewhere you can go to learn to deal with people who attack when questioned? A seminar on how to deal with people who fight dirty?

Signed, Sad Sue, Sincerely Suffering

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 10:45 PM

Depends, Sue. If you are critiquing someone, offering constructive criticism and you are that person's supervisor, the best tactic is to keep the focus on that person's actions. People will do their level best to avoid being criticized, and they will usually try to transfer the problem to someone else -- often you. All you can do is continue to state, calmly, "We're talking about you, not Joe or Sam or Mary or Jessica or me."

Keeping this focus can be hard to do, especially if you're being attacked, but you have to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: khandu
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 10:46 PM

SILENCE!!!

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 10:58 PM

Good answer, khanny...

Ahhh, Sue, not that Iz real good at it but my brother is a master of winning arguments and here is his secret. Where you feel yer loosin' a debate, try to respond with a question. This will put the other party on the defensive and as long as you can phrase yer reponses with additional questions, you will eventually wear down the bully.

But if silence is an option, take it...

"Better to fight and run away and live to fight another day." (Ho Che Mihn).

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 11:04 PM

And yes, there are books on dealing with bullies and other forms of difficult people which are full of good strategies, I have been told.

A

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: freightdawg
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 11:11 PM

Dear Sad and sincerely suffering Sue,

A couple of old sayings have helped me. One is never to get into a puking contest with a buzzard. They have more ammunition and a lot more training. Two, never try to teach a pig to sing. It only irritates the pig and it frustrates you.

I think I know what you are talking about. It is difficult in today's world where all we can imagine are winners and losers to have a well thought out disagreement. One thing I have learned (from being on both sides of the right/wrong line) is that we need to give our opponent the ability to save face. Being right does not give us the right to gloat, nor does being wrong on a particular issue make us an evil person (usually). Another thing is to replay our words to make sure we did not inadvertantly start the histrionics with a poorly chosen attack on our opponent's person. I try, when I have an honest disagreement with someone, to keep the focus on the subject, and leave the personalities out of it. That way, if the best we can do is to agree to disagree, we can at least respect and admire the others' dignity. One particular hero of mine could spend hours in heated formal debate with his opponent, then when all the shouting was over invite his opponent to accompany him for a supper. It frustrated those who felt like he was betraying his cause, but it made others view him as a very wise person. I'm not that good, but it is a good target to aim at.

Sorry for the sadness and suffering,

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 11:14 PM

You can let 'em rant, too, while you look at them with a look of vaguely amused speculation. When they finish, smile and say sweetly (and apparently sincerely), "Why, thank you for bringing that to my attention!" and walk quietly away. Then go have a stiff drink and think up really nasty things to curse the person with. Later, when their skin falls off during their Oscar acceptance speech, you'll know why.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: Blackcatter
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 12:48 AM

Good lord. Another thread like this.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 12:58 AM

some people have developed into an art form putting the boot in, politely, twisting the knife while smiling. the professional bully is wholly committed to kicking people to see who squeaks.

disassociation & denial were invented for just these moments. to just watch and maintain cool is extremely difficult, but it has its benefits. some stock phrases can help.

thanks for letting me know that.

I'll carefully consider your comments.

certainly!

It'll be on your desk as soon as poss and

WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE YOU ARROGANT PRICK! HOW DARE YOU TREAT US LIKE THIS?!!

last one is most effective when shouted into a lake, by a lonely shore, with no one listening....

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 01:21 AM

Well, I think I never meant to start an argument, but maybe I did. I know I'm not without fault in this, but it will take a few more hours before I can really see it from both sides.

I was expecting a reasonable discussion, but I should have anticipated that this person would perceive my questions as a challenge to her authority. I realize now that the thing that caused her to go on the attack was when I asked a question she didn't have an answer for. When I stood my ground was when she accused me of yelling at her and being defensive, and made threats which she will in all likelihood be unable to carry out.

The good news is that I'm getting so I can handle confrontation a little better - there was a time when confrontation caused me to burst immediately into tears, now I often don't cry at all, and if I do, it's a hour later, where no one can see me.

Confrontation is inevitable, I guess, but it always takes me by surprise, and even when I "win" I feel like I've lost. The thing Freightdawg said about letting people save face I sense is really really important and crucial, but I don't quite know what that looks like. Examples would be good - maybe some pictures and diagrams.

You guys are a big help, though. Is it someone else's turn on the Mudcat Therapy Couch now?

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: jacqui.c
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 01:37 AM

Sue - Ive been there myself but over the years have managed to learn to take a very deep breath and maintain a calm outer presence, even when the insides are in complete turmoil.

The last time it happened and the person refused to have a reasoned debate I told her that I was no longer prepared to continue to discuss the matter if she was going to keep up a personal attack, and I walked away. I cried my eyes out afterwards because the things she said hurt, but later on I felt quite proud of myself for not coming down to her level.

I have a good friend, who, if he's not winning in debate, raises his voice to drown out any alternative view. I've learned there that just to maintain a moderate tone and stick to your guns works wonders. Deep breathing can help keep you calm and in control as well.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST,threadkiller fredmiller
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 01:38 AM

what's going on around here lately? I don't have much time left over from trying to soak up the last days of summer with the kids, and every bs thread I peek at seems to be about dealing with nasty people.
make up your mind to oppose them as best you can, on principle, if not for you, for someone meeker who you care about; here, but more so elsewhere. If they have a car alarm, ask them Why In The World? If they pull in front of a house and honk, go out and tell them to get out and go knock on a damn door nobody knows who or what they're bleeping about or cares. But if they park blocking both lanes to have a conversation, hit your horn and don't let go. If they shout and berate, don't think twice about it, you have a right to say what you have to say, right or wrong. Never think twice about that. Because otherwise the dimwits who are so sure they know what they're talking about will shout down the self-doubters, who, in this world, are always a little more right. History proves nothing, but that.

This is a cultural war, no mistake. It has to be fought, I'm pretty sure, I think. Buck up, pilgrim.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 01:56 AM

i had a boss who harassed me on a regular basis, trying to break my will and make me reject a particular case, by working in a way that was illegal and unconscionable (what a word!). He used to come and stand over my desk and lecture me, regularly, humiliating me in front of colleagues. It was hard, but I politely disagreed with his arguments, and let him know.

One day when he came over, I let him know that I was going to a funeral that afternoon, and that it wasnt a good time for me, and could he come back another day to argue about the particular case. He stayed for another 40 mins.

The mistake I made was to offload about him to a woman who I later found out was having an affair with him. So he heard everything I felt, but through another source.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 02:04 AM

Blackcatter and Fred are right - life's too short to nurse your hurt feelings over long. Thanks for indulging me, and I do very much appreciate your responses - now would be an appropriate moment to burst into appreciative song, but all that comes to mind are the lines

Have no fear
Mudcat's near
Better than beer
For bringing cheer

Have self-doubt?
Throw it out!
'Catters about -
Better than stout

Feeling frail?
Beyond the pale?
something something
Finer than ale


Sounds more like a jingle than a song, I guess. Off to bed.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 02:11 AM

By the way, thank you, Jacqui - what you said was as good as a hug. And Freda, any one who doesn't appreciate you is nuts. Thank God you don't work for that asshole anymore!

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 02:28 AM

thanks sueB - thats kind of you. but i have shared all of those feelings that led you to start this thread. yep, I'm thanking the universe too that he's moved on, and ive heard that in his new position, he's being as much of a pain as he was here!

once, a few years ago, we were all strung out & destroyed by that same manager. One woman was listening while we were all freaking out. i asked her why she was being so calm about the things that had just happened. she said that she had been around long enough (25 years in that workplace) to work out that the worst managers, the ones that abused power, were the most ambitious. and that consequently, that by the law of nature, they would move on at some point. and she was right - he moved on, and proceeded to put the knife into someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: michaelr
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 02:48 AM

That's a sad comment on women in the workplace.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: kendall
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 09:03 AM

Just remember, All bullies are cowards.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 10:54 AM

I spent many hours with my therapist trying to explain why I was at a loss when someone started to yell at me and the lengths I would go to to avoid a yelling session.

You did what? from her. WHY? Because I thought he would yell at me. And if he yelled????

I was raised in a home where my father shouted and thundered all the time and the main occupation of everyone in the house was to see to it that dad didn't yell...because???? The therapist kept asking "What will happen if he yells?"

Took a while but I finally realized that once someone started to yell I was in control. All I have to do is remain calm and respond with logic. My first assignment was to retrieve some long overdue loans (12 years overdue and interest free while he bought a new 4by4, a waterfront house, and took Island vacations) from a brother who also yelled. I asked for the money. He yelled. I quietly asked asked again and he, in astonishment said "Didn't you hear me?" I said "Yes. Now when will I get my money?" I had it within a week and have never feared making anyone shout since.

I have also learned that I am no one's whipping post. I demand respect. If it is not forthcoming I walk away. When the shouting starts I make it clear that I don't accept that sort of abuse and I walk away.

Take a deep breath Sue. Hold your ground. Keep your own voice low and logical. And if you have to, walk away.

Good luck.

Michaelr - what makes you think this happened in the workplace? Sue hasn't said that. And I recently had a very similar exchange with a sister-in-law who after her divorce was trying to abuse her ex by going after his relatives. I stayed calm, made it clear I was not interested in a shouting match, and left. My relatives, who still lived by the "never make anyone shout" rule were astonished. They thought i had lost my mind. I had broken the ultimate law and was still smiling and alive. Ridiculous, aren't we?

For the record, I spent a week brooding over her cruel words. SOme things never change.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST,LDB
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 11:09 AM

One thing that I have used that is VERY effective is to listen very politely as though you were listening intently, then very calmly and sincerely say, " I am truly sorry; I did not realize that my abilities posed such a threat to you and your future with the company."

This is particularly effective if others are around.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 11:17 AM

What is really being bandied about here are cultural differences in the ways people express themselves.

You see the same sort of demonization of people who yell, as you do of people who talk loud. Not rudely, just at a louder volume. Thre are many cultures who, especially when together, raise the volume level a lot more than you hear in most workplaces. Unless you are in a mom and pop Italian restaurant, where boisterousness is the norm. I notice the Anglo types usually steer clear of those and go to the more sedate "better" Italian restaurants. Just something I've noticed after a few decades in the workplace.

Anglocentric behavior is extremely passive/aggressive. It rewards the people who yell, yet through cultural conditioning, sends the message that yelling is bad behavior.

Like any other form of communicating, sometimes yelling is exactly what is called for, sometimes it is the worst thing you can do. One thing for sure: the rules of polite discourse are no help in learning to distinguish when you should yell (ie, when it IS the right thing to do) and when it is inappropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 11:35 AM

Re "Anglocentric behavior is extremely passive/aggressive. It rewards the people who yell, yet through cultural conditioning, sends the message that yelling is bad behavior."

In the 1960's-70's there was a term in circulation for this kind of multisyllabic foolishness. The term was "elephant shit."

BTW, I am sure that every culture in the world distinguishes between happy, loud talk and angry, threatening loud haranguing.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 11:49 AM

I used to be in the same boat as SINSULL, and worked it out roughly the same way. People who get mad and defensive are afraid. You can shout back and play on their terms, and then the emotion becomes the issue. OR you can completely ignore the emotional agenda and accusations intended to lure you off-track, and just resume talking about what you wanted to once they get done yelling.

Trust me, if you can remain calm while someone rants, and then come back in a reasonable tone of voice with something like "OK. Now, about what I was saying..." you'll feel very good.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 11:52 AM

In the clear light of day I see how I could have handled things differently. I may have to accept more blame for how things went than I would like to. I wish I could pin all the blame on her, but some of it belongs to me. There are times when I think I'm being "assertive" and I'm perceived as being "aggressive". Aggressive is generally not perceived as a good quality in a woman, is it?

Damn, this evolution is a slow and painful process, isn't it? If there's a quick path to becoming a more thoughtful, wiser person, would someone please share it with me? Sometimes monasticism and a vow of silence seems like the only way.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 12:32 PM

It takes emotional maturity to openly acknowledge and confront conflict, in order to deal effectively with it. As I said, that isn't taught anywhere in our society, except in a handful of very effective workshops for the workplace.

One of dynamics that you see with people who raise their voices and/or yell, is they feel their concerns aren't being listened to and their concerns/complaints aren't being taken seriously and acted upon. The problem isn't with people yelling vs talking, nor is it a problem of simply not listening. The problem is, in these circumstances, everyone isn't on the same page.

These sorts of conflicts can be about competition between team members. The conflicts can be about competing ideas and solutions. It is almost always the case (unless it is a two person situation) that people have chosen sides based upon the person they are loyal to on the team, rather than being rational and logical about what works best for the circumstances. A huge problem in all group dynamics is the difficulties rooted in hierarchy: ie, not everyone's contribution is equally valued, and the value attributed to the idea is always firmly attached to their place in the chain of command.

In other words, if you are a low status worker, your ideas and contributions will be valued much less than the higher status workers. This was so blatant at a recent education workshop I attended, I blasted the workshop providers and walked out in protest.

Did I yell? No. Did I whine? No. Did I throw a temper tantrum? No. What I did was speak directly, confidently, and with authority. When it came time to address the workshop facilitators at fault, I spoke in a stern but even tone of voice at a "polite" volume level. That is invariably referred to as "screaming" or "yelling" by most people. Why? Because direct communication isn't something most people are comfortable with, but they are especially uncomfortable with direct communication in the form of articulate, legitimate criticism.

I also had a run-in with my bank recently. The guy kept saying to me the bank's policy wouldn't allow him to credit my account for 2-$100 credit holds on my account from a gas station, after the actual transaction had gone through for $10.10 on my VISA debit card. He told me the problem was with the vendor, and I'd have to contact them. I already knew that was a load of crap, because this happened to me once before (in that case, a restaurant deducted a 20% gratuity automatically as a credit hold, and I quickly educated myself about it). I was calling long distance because I was on vacation. The gas station was 600 miles behind me. I raised a stink by speaking directly and sternly to him, refusing to speak with his supervisor, and threatening to get hold of the call center manager immediately.

He put me on hold, then came back and said "they didn't usually do this, but he would reverse the charges and the hold on my $200 immediately". I won. He of course refused to admit he had been wrong to begin with.

My mother-in-law, who would never dream of speaking to the man on the phone the way I had, was astounded. She said she had never seen anyone get such good results "yelling at someone on the phone" (note: I never raised my voice). She had insisted before I made the call (and all my in-laws around the table--six very intelligent, articulate, but very middle class sorts of people, of course agreed with her) that I would NEVER get my request met, and that it "always" takes weeks of paper going back and forth before the mistake was corrected. I said "like hell it will" and went for it. I do this all the time now, when I'm stonewalled by polite bureaucrats trained to stonewall rather than problem solve.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST,TTCM
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 01:14 PM

Well, Sue if you would just mind everything you husband tells you to do, I am sure he would have no need to yell at you. You should feel lucky, because if you were my wife you would be punished for not following the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: Kim C
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 01:23 PM

It does suck to get yelled at, especially if things get personal. This happened to me at work about a month ago. Basically I was told that I had a lousy attitude and I shouldn't ask questions about how the organization operates (because it's none of my business, even though I process checks and make purchases), and I shouldn't ask questions when people ask me to to things, because I'm an assistant and my job is to do as I'm told.

Well, I came unglued. I didn't want to but it just sort of happened, because I believed I was being attacked. I still believe I was being attacked, although that's all water under the bridge by now. We have worked things out amongst us, so some good did come from it, but I sure didn't like the way it was handled.

So I've been doing what I'm told. A couple of weeks ago this resulted in our participation in an office-supply scam... my supervisor said, There's a lady on the phone who says her father's closing his business and selling everything off cheap - will you talk to her since you order the office supplies?

It's probably a scam, I said.

No, she said, I think it's legitimate. I think it's someone the boss knows.

Okay, I said. So I got staples and highlighter pens. When the bill came it was over $500.

But I did as I was told. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 03:22 PM

I think it's a good policy to never defend yourself. (At least not until you've given yourself 24 hours to think about it and consider other alternatives.) If you need a good slogan to help you fend off personal attacks, use this: "Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while." In other words, I might be idiot (or whatever you're implying that I am), but even an idiot is right sometimes, and I still think this is one of those times. So what you think of me is irrelevant. You still have to deal with this issue I'm raising.

Another good thing to do is apologize. Even if you think the fault is 99% the other person's and 1% your own, go ahead and apologize, as sincerely as you can, for that 1%. You don't have to accept all the blame, just the part that is properly yours.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 04:44 PM

I am real sorry that you are an insecure asshole.

thanks, Jim. That works for me!

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: jacqui.c
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 04:55 PM

I had a father like Sinsull's and remember the fear that was engendered when he began yelling at us. For a small child that is frightening and very threatening - kids haven't the wherewithal to look at things like that logically and calmly.

For many years I avoided conflict because argument made me feel very insecure - it took me right back to my childhood. It took a long time before I was able to sit back from confrontation and stay calm enough to deal with the situation. It was a real step forward when I realised that I was winning when someone else started shouting and personalising a discussion.

I think too many children have to put up with this form of abuse and it can stay with them throughout their lives in many cases. That is probably why people won't make a scene or else get upset by verbal aggression.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: Helen
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 05:14 PM

"Have you ever noticed that the ones that start yelling and getting all defensive are the same ones that accuse the person they're yelling at of yelling and being defensive?"

SueB, a useful comeback is "That's just projection!" Projection is a psychobabble term meaning (roughly) all the things you are accusing me of are the things you don't want to recognise in yourself.

Saying that can stop some people in their tracks.

Be careful about taking on too much blame for this. That can just tie you up in knots, which is what the other person is hoping for. That's why they use the emotional blackmail, to make you feel guilty and put you off the track of the real topic under discussion.   A red herring.

I have learned over a lot of painful years how to ignore this sort of manipulative behaviour. I have been described as a bulldog. Once I latch on to the main outcomes of a discussion I don't let go any more.

I totally agree with what jacqui said about, what I call "focusing on the content and not the emotions". Learn to ignore their emotional/abusive/aggressive outbursts and just focus on the content of what you are discussing. Not the sideline content about your "defensive" behaviour, but the real issues you are discussing.

I've posted this link before but there is a wealth of information here which will help you to unravel and understand the way some people work:

Bully OnLine: Tim Field shares his unique insight into workplace bullying, a cau

And, Guest,TTCM, nice try, but we're just ignoring you so you might as well go somewhere else and play. You'll get no emotional fodder here from your psych-me-out games. :-)

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 10:59 PM

Guest of 12:32, whoever you are, I totally admire the way you get things done, and I wish I had more people in my life to model that kind of calm confident effectiveness. It's kind of discouraging that even when you handle things without raising your voice and getting excited, people think you're yelling anyway. Would they think that if you were a man?

And Kim, I've had that happen in the workplace too - made the mistake of thinking I could contribute in a constructive way, and was told not only were my contributions unwelcome, but who the hell did I think I was, anyway.

And Helen, thanks for saying that about not taking too much of the blame and tying myself up in knots over it. I did my best to stand my ground while it was happening, so now is not the time to start backpedaling. My knee jerk reaction, of course, is to start backpedaling for all I'm worth, but I really don't want this woman to think she has me buffaloed. Which is why, as Jim recommends, I'm not going to try to defend myself, even though she has apparently started a campaign of badmouthing me around the community, but also why I'm not going to apologize for anything just now, which she would perceive as a sign of weakness. I've never been really great at acting like something doesn't bother me when it does, but I'm going to give it a try.

Eventually I would like to come to some sort of peaceful understanding with this person, but I'm just a little too intimidated to try right now, as much as I wish I wasn't.

I haven't had time to click on the link, but I will, and I appreciate getting some direction. In the absence of good role models, I learned something about parenting from some really good books - maybe now I can learn something about dealing effectively with people who just act like children, too.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: Helen
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 01:37 AM

SueB,

I tied myself in knots for a year and a half trying to work out a way to come to some sort of peaceful understanding with the bullying boss I worked for, until I suddenly realised that it wasn't what he really wanted at all. He was getting his jollies (big time!) from the conflict while I was getting more and more upset and frustrated trying to find an effective solution. When I recognised that he was in it for the power trip and the nastiness I was able to back off emotionally from the whole situation (unfortunately not without a lot of emotional damage by that stage, though).

Some people want peaceful understanding, and there is a percentage of people (maybe statistically not a whole lot) who are desperately seeking the exact opposite. So, it helps to figure out what this person is really after.

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 10:16 AM

Sue - put a thumbtack in her chair. Or just unplug her computer and watch her try to turn it on. ;-) (I've never done either of those myself, but I have thought about it Real Hard.)

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: jacqui.c
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 04:39 PM

I had a minor victory this week. My manager always has been an unpleasant piece of work and two years ago I got so sick of the general harrassment that I made a formal complaint against him. The complaint was upheld abd he was reprimanded and told to leave me alone but stayed in his position.

Naturally relations have been pretty strained over the past two years but there has been little I could do about the situation. Last week he managed to find an excuse to have a go at me, with no real justification, in front of my team leader, my immediate manager. Once he had gone home I very quietly told my team leader that I was very angry about this guy's behaviour, that it was out of order and that if he did it again I would go back for a formal complaint.

I think my team leader had a quiet word with this guy who, this week, has been almost friendly toward me - quite creepy as far as I'm concerned but it seems that I am lucky that I have a threat that he will take seriously. As Kendall said - bullies ARE generally cowards and nine times out of ten if you can find the right button you can sort them out.

I know that it's not always possible to do it but it has made me feel good that I can keep this person under some kind of control because of his fear that I will report him. Doing it two years ago was difficult and uinpleasant but it has been worth it. Hopefully I won't be working there too much longer and, having a bit of a vindictive streak, would almost have welcolmed the chance to make a formal complaint against him again but it will make life a bit easier until I do leave just to know I have dealt wiith him in my own way.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST,fred miller
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 02:43 AM

some of the better anon postings I've seen are on this thread. It's really very complex, the intelligence in interactions and communications. Last night I saw a speech from a rep of our governor, which was pretty darn good--except the speaker had no idea where he was or who he was talking to. I think most people cut him some slack, granted him a mistake. pretty bad one, but, okay.
I suppose some people thrive on some trouble and confrontation. I bring my little bit of edge and combativeness into play partly in verbal sport, and partly--I imagine--on behalf of those who let themselves get stepped on by loudmouths. I know nice people who won't take up for themselves, and when I might let something pass for my own sake, I still feel I should be a watchdog for people who are essentially nicer than me. I recently explained this to my contractors--I think I ought, on principle, to file a complaint. Some people can't get out a skillsaw and fix a dangerous ladder installation. And, by the way, since I paid y'all to do it, I don't like it that I have to fool with it. It takes my breath away that they left on the sticker that explained that the installation was utterly wrong and unsafe. With pictures, too.
There may be some prejudice against people with loud voices--I'm quite sure I was biased against the kid who always shouted things like "throw me that bag of weed" in my bedroom when I was a teen living with my parental units. But I'm also exasperated with people who make no effort to be heard, and mutter urgent requests out the open window of a car. bluh buh, bluh buh bluuuuuh!
   So how about if people take a little responsibility for suiting their mode of communication to the time/space continuum? How about that? Quit ordering things that sound fancy but then eating my standard plainer fare off my plate, please, honey. If you want fries, order them goddammit. If you don't care much one way or another about an issue, don't yell about your preference, please. There are, in fact, these basic building blocks of civilization.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: Hollowfox
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 03:36 PM

There's (surprise, coming from a librarian) a book that might help. It's called The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defence by Suzette Haden Elgin. copyright 1980, it's ben done by at least two publishers.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 04:51 PM

Yeah, I'd recommend it too. She is a linguist by trade, and also has a follow-up to that book, She is also the author of two cool sci fi/lingusit plot books called 'Native Tongue' and 'Judas Rose'.

Her verbal defense books are good. Not the be all and end all, but better than most self-help crap in the verbal communication area, most of which says "mad bad, nice good".

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 05:31 PM

But I should also add, I think there are better books on the subject, including "Fierce Conversations: Achieving Success at Work & in Life, One Conversation at a Time" by Susan Scott.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 12:04 PM

The broads on this thread should do a panel discussion thing on Oprah.

Sheesh!

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 03:53 PM

Hi, Martin. I'm very interested in hearing your ideas on conflict resolution.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 05:36 PM

Simple. It takes two intelligent people who know how to communicate with each other and understand what the word compromise means.

Works for me. Doesn't need to be made into a Lifetime movie.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 08:56 PM

If both parties were intelligent, knew how to communicate with each other, and understood what the word compromise means...sounds ideal.

In this case, I don't think either of us are stupid, but communication seems to be a problem anyway. I don't think she wants a win-win compromise, I think she wants to crush me.

So, now what? Round two is coming up in the form of retaliation - she wants my name OFF the bank account, and me out of the organization. That'll serve me right for asking questions, I guess.

What do you suggest, Martin?

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 09:58 PM

It sucks to get yelled at, but it sucks just as bad not to be spoken to.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 11:42 PM

Confront her.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: jacqui.c
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 02:34 AM

The problem can be that a person who has reached a position of authority may not have the emotional intelligence required to compromise or even to manage others with any real success.

In my own company it has happened that, because a certain person was next in line and hadn't blotted their copybook to any great degree, they were promoted to a position where they could and have made life miserable for those they are managing. Once they are in that position it is next to impossible to remove them.

That type of person actually enjoys the feeling of power that they get from the fact that they are able to dictate the course of another person's working life and the discomfort that they arouse in those working for them, purely by the way in which they treat them. Just think of the cases of harrassment that are reported because a worker finally says "enough". Then think of the numnber of cases where that worker either resigns or puts up with the harrassment because they cannot cope with the process of complaint. Talking to the perpetrators isn't going to help - they are generally aware of what they are doing and the action is deliberate - why should they be persuaded by reasoned debate? Compromise isn't something that they would even think about.

Anyone who has managed to get through their working life without being subject to, or having seen this behaviour in action must be pretty lucky. With the employment law in the UK making it difficult without a lot of proof to sack anyone it is something that is becoming more common since too many people are loathe to back up a victimised colleague for fear that they could be next, or because they just don't want to get involved.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 10:12 AM

Yeah, flunkies are always afraid to use their own power against a bad supervisor.

There ARE solutions to those sorts of problems, but most people would rather bitch and whine about how terrible their boss is. Which is fine, but then people need to understand that eventually (and it doesn't take long) people get tired of listening to you piss and moan. One must take action, and it usually isn't direct action against the person with whom they have the grievance. Educating yourself about workplace dynamics is the best thing you can do, because once you know how they work, you could work in a million jobs, and you'd be able to figure out very quickly what the score is in that particular workplace.

I happen to be supervised by a village idiot who can't do her job, but is power mad AND extremely paranoid about doing her job. She is one of the majority of public educators who don't really like kids, hate doing the job of educating, but just love collecting their paychecks, having the status of dept. chair, and having summers off.

I just work around her. It is possible to be very effective, not lose sleep at night over how difficult she makes life, etc. I focus on MY job, in other words, instead of how she is doing hers. I'm looking for another assignment, and hope it will come down the pike for me early this year. But if it doesn't, then I can focus on my job, working with a great bunch of kids, and loving doing the teaching I do.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: jacqui.c
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 10:32 AM

Yes, i did love my job - problem was this guy was attacking me and a close friend personally and was in a position to make life very difficult for both of us on a personal level. For instance, he was responsible for reports on my abilities that influenced pay rises and bonuses and was not beyond nitpicking to the nth degree to make it look as if I was not up to the job.

With that type of person in charge all that can be dine is to go down the formal route and that, believe me, is a very lonely and uncomfortable way to go. My complaint was upheld in full but I still have to work, indirectly, for this man because no one else would put their head above the parapet. now he is directing his attention to tohers in the team who are regreting their inaction but, to my mind, they have bought this on themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 10:48 AM

I empathise with you. But you at least realized, as your colleagues did not, that nothing would improve if something wasn't done to improve it. It is hard, because you become a pariah for rocking the boat, both with management and with your co-workers who don't want to be seen as being on your side for fear of the guilt by association fears.

But it is fear that keeps people abusers and users in power, isn't it?

One of the things that makes my supervisor so intolerable is her fear that she is going to lose her job. She is the head librarian, and in so many school districts, the librarian jobs are being eliminated, and paraprofessionals, who are paid less than teachers (but not by that much) with much better information technology training are replacing them. Of course, the teachers unions are up in arms about this, but they shouldn't be. It makes better economic sense, and certainly better educational sense, because like it or not, students don't use the libraries anymore, either at the secondary or college leves. They use the internet, databases, etc. Technology is going to change the face of education, and I think it should. But I am definitely in the minority amongst educators.

She also did her teacher training for primary grades, but works with secondary because little kids are more work. So she is clueless about the issues facing secondary urban educators vis a vis disciplining students, setting boundaries, etc. She has never had any supervisor training, which is true for almost all educators who supervise others, especially when it comes to evaluating their colleagues. They do it as if their colleagues were their students, which is pretty appalling. That is a HUGE problem in education.

But hey--I could always change fields if it mattered that much to me. I've learned to accept a lot of frustrations in my education job, but all jobs have frustrations. Except in circumstances where there is harrassment, we all have to learn to cope with workplace frustrations and still do our jobs. It really is that simple to me. Though harrassment is a wholly different thing. But the occasional getting yelled at is something that just has never bothered me.

We all have our days.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 04:03 PM

Confront her. Well, that's pretty direct. I think she'll wipe the floor with me, though.

My husband, who would never have the patience for a conversation of this kind, tends to use a different sort of strategy. Rule #1, if you're not sure what the best thing to do is, hold off on making a decision. Eventually you may be forced into making a decision, but the longer you wait, the more information you are likely to have, and the better your decision is likely to be. Rule #2, be what in boxing terms is known as a counterpuncher: let your opponent be the one to commit to a course of action. Also, play your cards close to your chest, and never blink first. He's developed dealing with problems into a sort of an artform, although I never really looked at it that way before.

It probably doesn't matter what your strategy or coping mechanism is, as long as you have one - the alternative is to become paralyzed whenever you piss somebody off and they have a strong reaction. I can't believe I've reached my forties without dealing with this. Can I blame my father? He was a walking pressure cooker, who alternated between giving you the silent treatment and blowing his top, and in between times he kept the lid on so tight you were never quite sure where you stood - he could go from loving you to scalding you in the blink of an idea. This is why I prefer to deal with people who let you know where you stand...

I think I've already said this, but I'll say it again - thanks for letting me hash this out here, and giving me the benefit of your experience and your opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 04:08 PM

Another thought, Sue, although I believe you have this one under control. Never lash out in anger. Count to ten or twenty and if you are still angry, walk away. Better to have logic and control on your side. Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 05:06 PM

As this is an agony thread ....Id just like to say "Im very worried about Martin"....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: Helen
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 07:04 PM

A really good book to read - and it is not heavy going, just a light, humourous style - is The Peter Principle, by Laurence J. Peter. The Peter Principle is that everyone rises to their own level of incompetence - only some people recognise their level of competence and the limits past which they won't go, so they choose not to keep progressing past their effective level. Others get dollar signs in their eyes and can't see past the proffered payrise and the associated rise in status and find out too late that they don't have the skills to cope with the job. Then because many of them are not capable of being objective about their own capabilities, they spend the majority of their work time trying to cover up their incompetence, and some of them will shift the blame and the spotlight onto others.

Guest, 09 Aug 04 - 10:48 AM has given some examples which are very similar to the examples in the book, because most of them are from the education sector.

I read this book about 20 years ago and it made a lot of sense of some of the people I worked for and with.

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 07:24 PM

I've never read the book, but I am, of course, familiar with it. Many years ago, I also figured out the Peter-Out Principle which follows the Peter Principle:

People will move up the ladder until they stop having fun. When the fun peters out, talented people walk.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 07:35 PM

And of course, I neglected to mention the Dilbert Principle.

And The Law of Communications:

The inevitable result of improved and enlarged communications between different levels in a hierarchy is a vastly increased area of misunderstanding.

Or Spark's Ten Rules for Project Managers:

1. Strive to look tremendously important.

2. Attempt to be seen with important people.

3. Speak with authority; however, only expound on the obvious and proven facts.

4. Don't engage in arguments, but if cornered, ask an irrelevant question and lean back with a satisfied grin while your opponent tries to, figure out what's going on - then quickly change the subject.

5. Listen intently while others are arguing the problem. Pounce on a trite statement and bury them with it.

6. If a subordinate asks you a pertinent question, look at him as if he had lost his senses. When he looks down, paraphrase the question back at him.

7. Obtain a brilliant assignment, but keep out of sight and out of the limelight.

8. Walk at a fast pace when out of the office this keeps questions from subordinates and superiors at a minimum.

9. Always keep the office door closed. This puts visitors on the defensive and also makes it look as if you are always in an important conference.

10. Give all orders verbally. Never write anything down that might go into a "Pearl Harbor File."

I've got tons of these babies!

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 09:32 PM

Ake, don't worry about me.

Worry about why you are so constipated.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 09:45 PM

Martin...I feel I must tell you ...You are behaving very strangely.

All this caring and sharing stuff bodes ill for the independence of spirit you took such pride in.

I fear ,in a few days you'll be signing your posts and offering "best wishes"

Taking out full membership was surely the start of the rot....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 09:29 AM

This really is the kind of thing it's impossible to give useful advice about. You have to use your best instincts in the particular situation. A great wise man once said "you got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em" etc.

Subject: RE: BS: It sucks to get yelled at.
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 12:41 PM

"...they spend the majority of their work time trying to cover up their incompetence, and some of them will shift the blame and the spotlight onto others."

I work with someone EXACTLY LIKE THAT!!! And even her boss won't recognize her incompetence. It isn't that she's totally stupid - it's just that her skill set doesn't match the position she's in. It's very annoying to the rest of us who have to cover up for her.