12 strings guitar in Folkmusic

Subject: 12 strings quitar in Folkmusic.........
From: skarpi
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 09:40 AM

Halló all , i am just wandering I am getting " SeaGull " 12
strings in mid Ocober and the plan is to use him in the folk music.
Is it a bad Idea?.
Is there anyone witch use 12 strings?
just wandering.All the best, Skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: 12 strings quitar in Folkmusic.........
From: Amos
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 09:58 AM

Skarpi:

No, it is a good idea. 12-string guitars add a special voice. Use your aesthetic judgement, man.


A

Subject: RE: 12 strings quitar in Folkmusic.........
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 10:33 AM

Leadbelly played a 12-string -- can't get a much better folk-music endorsement than that!

One caveat: Don't plan on doing a lot of retuning (e.g., back and forth between standard, open, and/or alternate tunings). I'ts not twice as difficult as a six-string to retune quickly and accurately -- it's *more* than twice as hard!

Subject: RE: 12 strings quitar in Folkmusic.........
From: Mooh
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 10:35 AM

Yes, use it! I get tired of the same old guitar sound all the time, so a 12 string will really help change the timbre of a tune/song. In the celtoid band I use the 12 about equally with the 6 and the baritone. Go for it!

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: 12 strings quitar in Folkmusic.........
From: Chris in Wheaton
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 10:43 AM

Easier to use a 6-string and a chorus effect - and there is probably some effects attachment that gets the jingle-jangle sound. Is there??
Tuning may not be a problem anymore with electronic jobbies, but changing strings is not much fun.
Check out Roger McGuinn's website and get some old Bob Gibson music - there's a Gibson and Camp concert achived now on WFMT.org - sure miss Ol' Bob.
Heard Lee Murdock and Mark Dvorak play 12-strings last weekend - Lee has lots of good maritime music.

Chris in Wheaton

Subject: RE: 12 strings quitar in Folkmusic.........
From: Midchuck
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 11:28 AM

What PoppaGator said about tuning. It's a major project to stay in tune if you only use one tuning. On the other hand, a 12-string in DADGAD is a great sound. With six strings tuned to D, there's a lot of reinforcement. Maybe you should get two.

Be sure to use light gauge strings or else tune it below standard pitch. Otherwise you'll end up with something more suited to archery.

Peter.

Subject: RE: 12 strings quitar in Folkmusic.........
From: GUEST,Duane D. at work
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 12:24 PM

I've been playing a Guild F-112 since 1973 and regularly switch back and forth between standard, dropped D, and open G with no tuning difficulties, tuning by ear. It just takes a little practice and patience. I've found that certain songs sound much better on a 12 and others don't. I guess it's a personal preference. If you want to hear good 12 string work check out Gordon Bok, Mike Agranoff, Mason Williams, to name a few, and an album long out of print, "Anthology of the 12 String Guitar." I don't know if it ever made it to CD. Good Pickin.

Duane.

Subject: RE: 12 strings quitar in Folkmusic.........
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 01:06 PM

To steal a banjo joke:

Twelve string guitar players spend half their time tuning and half their time playing out of tune.

Subject: RE: 12 strings quitar in Folkmusic.........
From: saulgoldie
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 01:35 PM

While I always fight with the tuning issue, I eo thoroughly enjoy the 12-string sound that I am willing to put up with it.

You can use this line (just remember that you heard it here, first): "This guitar has twice as many strings, so I only have to play half-fast." (Say it quickly, and see if anyone gets it. ;) ) If you DO use it, please remember the accreditation. I thank you.

Subject: RE: 12 strings quitar in Folkmusic.........
From: Amos
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 02:32 PM

Saul:

Seems to me that one's been around a loooong time...I remember reading a version of it when I was 12, on one of those corny cheap cardboard signs you could buy in any greasy spoon along the highway...

A

Subject: RE: 12 strings quitar in Folkmusic.........
From: saulgoldie
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 02:35 PM

Mebbe so, Amos. But I hadn't heard it when I "made it up" for meself. Glad to know that others have thought of it, though.

Subject: RE: 12 strings guitar in Folkmusic.........
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 03:26 PM

Thread creep, concerning "half-fast":

Famed trad-jazz clarinetist Pete Fountain has celebrated Mardi Gras each of the last 20+ years by leading his "Half-Fast Marching Club" from Commander's Palace in the Garden District downtown into the French Quarter early every Fat Tuesday morning, preceding the Zulu and Rex parades down St. Charles Avenue.

The members, including Pete himself of course, are getting well up in age by now. However, they're still able -- for one day a year, anyway -- to get up early, eat a big fattening breakfast including Bloody Marys, and then drink heavily (at various designated barroom "stops") while marching several miles, some of them toting and playing their intruments all the while. The whole effort becomes a full eight-hour "work" day, from about 6 am into the early afternoon.

Subject: RE: 12 strings guitar in Folkmusic.........
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 05:33 PM

Scarpi

I've been using a Seagull 12 for about 12 years now and I'm very pleased with it. Certainly to improve on the instrument I'd have to pay vastly greater amounts of cash.
If you get the chance I would reccomend that you try a number of Seagulls as they do differ a lot in the timbers used I'm not sugesting that some of the Seagull guitars are inferior just that they differ.
Its worth taking note of the point raised about using light gauge strings for standard tuning. What I prefer to do is to tune the guitar 2 frets low and use heavier strings. I'm currently using open G 2 frets low and have the guitar strung with the following gauges
13/13, 17/17, 26/10, 34/12, 46/22 & 59/36 The guitar can really rumble with tis set I used to play the guitar to open C 2 frets low but I cant find the note I made regarding the gauges that I used (when I find it I'll sent it on ) You might find that simpler chord voicings sound better on a 12 string
I hope this helps

ANDY

Subject: RE: 12 strings guitar in Folkmusic.........
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 11:30 PM

"It's a major project to stay in tune if you only use one tuning. On the other hand, a 12-string in DADGAD is a great sound. With six strings tuned to D, there's a lot of reinforcement."

My triple strung hammered dulcimer was a mongrel to keep in tune when I first got it, then I discovered that the many of centre post bridges were mostly out of perfect positioning (some by only a millimetre or so!). When they were all positioned correctly, the ratio between the sides of each string was then correct, and the thing really seemed to 'want' to stay in tune, not only between pitches, but especially on the same run of 3 strings for each pitch once all three strings on each run had been initally correctly tuned and allowed to 'settle' for a week or so with regular touch ups. After that, the thing seemed to always be more than 'close enough for folk'... so one could just get it out and start playing straight away.

The more strings on the same pitch, the more 'willing' the instrument seems to be to stay pitched correctly, at least to itself. Bit spooky that...

Robin

Subject: RE: 12 strings guitar in Folkmusic.........
From: Teresa
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 11:57 PM

It's that high G that breaks on me the most. otherwise, I really love the 12-string, and I can play it half-fast, too. ;);) The sound is so rich and beautiful.

T

Subject: RE: 12 strings guitar in Folkmusic.........
From: leeneia
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 12:23 AM

Hi, Skarpi. That's exciting about getting the new 12-string. I bet you are looking forward to it.

Yes, twelve-strings are common in folk music. I suggest that you not use it for every song, though. Vary the sound by changing the type of guitar you use.

Subject: RE: 12 strings guitar in Folkmusic.........
From: Naemanson
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 02:23 AM

Use both the 6 and the 12 for a new effect. You only need four hands and two bodies...

Actually using them both, changing for different songs, adds more depth to the performance.

Subject: RE: 12 strings guitar in Folkmusic.........
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 04:18 AM

Chris in Wheaton said changing strings is a chore, which is true: I suggest you get a string winder, and preferably one that's designed to work with 12-string tuners which are closer together.

I started to drop the tuning on my 12-string a few years ago (as I've mentioned elsewhere), and finally ended up a whole 5 frets low, so my 5th string is tuned to E, 4th to A, and so on; with the 6th tuned to B. It sounds great, a really deep tone, but I have to use custom strings to make sure they all match. Also, the thicker strings sit rather high in their grooves on the nut, so it doesn't take kindly to a capo; and I still haven't plucked up courage to widen the grooves. I can't recomend going that low!

Take extra care not to drop your guitar, as the great tension on the strings makes it more prone to damage than a 6-string.

But above all -- enjoy it!

Steve

Subject: RE: 12 strings guitar in Folkmusic.........
From: jonm
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:19 AM

Anyone play one of these things fingerstyle? I'd like to get one, but on the rare occasions I've tried I've not got on very well with the instrument fingerstyle. I'm left handed, so opportunities are few and far between. I seem to play only one string of the two on faster passages and depending on whether you're going up or down, sometimes that's the octave and sometimes the other. Is this a common thing, my incompetence or will it come with practice?

I perform mainly solo, so although shimmering chords are lovely things, I want to be able to do more than that. Flatpicked lead lines sound strange when you cross from octave stringing to pairs. Arpeggios and picking over a bass line is what I want to do, and I'm better with my nails than a plectrum.

Is it me?

Subject: RE: 12 strings guitar in Folkmusic.........
From: Mooh
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:37 AM

jonm...I always found I needed to adjust my fingerstyle style for the 12 string. Slightly shorter nails, more of a brush stroke than a pluck (if you follow my meaning), and some frailing too.

I never played a 12 I could live with until I bit the bullet and had one made. It has a tighter waist than most, 12 frets to the body, ebony buttons on mini tuning machines, shifted bracing and bridge location, all of which contribute to better balance on the lap and better tuning stability than I had ever known in a 12. I think it may be pictured in the Mudcat photos of me if you're curious.

String breakage in my experience is a function of set-up and technique. Properly set-up and played string breakage will not be a problem. Same goes for tuning...good intonation and set-up helps keep the thing in tune. Have a decent tech guy or luthier check it over.

The only time I don't like to use my 12 in band situations is when there's a lot of competition for that timbre or register, like when the citterns and bouzoukis appear, or when the tune demands another sound. But it is a very good addition to the guitarist's toolbox.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: 12 strings guitar in Folkmusic.........
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 10:17 AM

I've never owned a 12, and while I used to play fairly often on borrowed 12-string guitars years ago (when I was playing *much* more than in recent years), I probably haven't touched one in 15-20 years.

So, you can take what I say with a big grain of salt.

Like jonm, when I first picked up a 12-string, I was concerned about being able to play a *pair* of strings (as opposed to a single string) with each fingerpicking stroke. With the rather tame and deliberate attack I was employing early in my development as a player, it *was* difficult to fingerpick and take full advantage of the 12's ability to "double" every note.

As I went through a very busy period, playing on streetcorners for hours every day, and using my fingerpicks exclusively (plastic thumbpick plus two metal fingerpicks), I gradually developed a right-hand technique that more-or-less combined "picking" with "strumming." Eventually, I could play either a single string or a number of adjacent strings with any given stroke of the thumb or of either finger.

In other words, my "picking" became much freer and more percussive while my "strumming" became more controlled. What had been two separate approaches very gradually merged into a single way of playing.

(Aside: I think that this kind of "hard-hitting" approach to fingerpicking is essential to Delta-style blues playing, especially when trying to emulate some of the two-finger pickers [thumb-plus-one], who could routinely attack multiple strings [i.e., play two- or three-string chords] with each stroke.)

Anyway: It was only after this shift of technique was well under way that I became better able to fingerpick on the 12-string guitar, managing to playing both strings of each pair (or all strings of two or three adjacent pairs) with each stroke of a finger or thumb.

I can't imagine being able to play the instrument in a similar manner barefingered (without picks), but then I'm very dependent upon my picks and can't play nearly as well without them. Someone who is used to fingerpicking "au natural," and who has plenty of practice and experience, might very well develop their own technique for effectively picking the 12's six pairs of strings.

(Flatpickers probably find it much easier to adapt their 6-string technique to the 12. Certainly, the mandolin -- an instrument whose strings are arranged in pairs much like the 12's -- is routinely played with a plectrum, almost never with fingerpicks.)

Subject: RE: 12 strings guitar in Folkmusic.........
From: Grab
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 06:39 PM

I'm tempted by a 12 - if we can afford it (after DVD player, new bathroom and other house-related items :-/ then that'll be my next acquisition.

I'm primarily a fingerstyle player. When I've been playing them in guitar shops, I've been struck by two things.

The first thing is the whole "shimmering note" thing and the depth of sound that comes out, with two strings per note. I'm fond of the tune Anji (as are most guitarists ;-) and that sounds wonderful on a 12, particularly the fills between sections. And all that mellow mood music sounds great.

But the other thing that took my eye was the re-entrant nature of the strings - that the high bottom E string is an octave higher than the low E, so by playing the single string you can get notes on the bottom string which are higher (or around the same pitch) as notes on the D string. And so on up, until the high G string is actually higher than the top E strings. This blows my mind, because one thing I like doing is arranging and playing stuff for solo guitar which was never designed to be played on it. Basically the whole "lap orchestra" bit. It seems like having four extra strings available in a variety of assorted pitches around the midrange of the instrument would give *so* much scope for this kind of stuff.

Are there players who do this - playing fingerstyle and using individual strings on a 12-string to enhance the depth of harmonies and provide extra counterpoint? Does anyone have recommendations for people to listen to who do this? Or (hope against hope!) does anyone here actually do this? If so, any tips?

Graham.

Subject: RE: 12 strings guitar in Folkmusic.........
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:08 AM

Grab, I ordered some custom strings (see above) from Eagle Music, tuned BEADG#B. Very good strings, but they made up the 2nd pair in octaves, not unison. Apart from technical considerations, it sounds OK, and it means I've got more range. Downside: the string is hair-thin, and I broke it before I'd even started tightening it! Fortunately I'd ordered two sets ...

Subject: RE: 12 strings guitar in Folkmusic.........
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:24 AM

Grab
Theres some interesting stuff on a tutorial vid/dvd Contemporary 12 string (or some such title)from Chris Proctor. He advocates tuning down 2 frets for open tunings and playing individual strings as opposed to courses. The indivdual string hadn't occurred to me and it really opens up the instrument to acheive this you need nails or as he reccomends "AlaskaPiks" which as you may know fit under the nail.I had problems sourcing these locally ie none to be had blank looks etc. I ended up emailing some shops and got a reply from the Music Room in Cleckheaton who I understand are now UK Distributors. Its an interesting shop well worth a trip particularly if you like a curry. On the way in from the M62 theres an excelant curry spot in a converted chapel must be one of the biggest in UK/known world not open at dinner time but great teatime specials!! I digress pass the chapattis please

Subject: RE: 12 strings guitar in Folkmusic.........
From: Grab
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 09:00 AM

Thanks for that recommendation, Andy - I'll look into that tutorial. I've got nails, so that's OK.

I've got some AlaskaPiks, but I never really got on with them (nor with any other fingerpicks). I tend to use "frailing" strokes (especially for strumming) as well as picking normally, and I've not yet found a fingerpick that'll stay on for both of those.

Graham.

Subject: RE: 12 strings guitar in Folkmusic.........
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 09:46 AM

I'm not over thriled with picks I suppose I'll have to give them another whirl or check out the nail enhancement alternatives.Seasoned mudcat correspomndent and cycling flamencoist Super Ted uses nail varnish to strengthen his nails and uses some very fetching shades too, he reckons his nails are dead hard but he's from Hull