Serial Picker

Subject: Serial Picker
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 08:35 PM

Just for something lighthearted.

Now, as far as I know, no serial killer ever released an album, although Charles Manson had dreams of being a rock star and was a musician.

What I'm wondering is, how much if any difference does it make to you whether a musician is an enjoyable person, or a bastard, or a real bore offstage? Can you separate the music from the person? People sure did with Elvis and Frank Sinatra. But, folk music is supposed to be more "pure."

I think of all the musicians I booked over my life, and how the audience responded to them. Now, I never knowingly booked a serial killer or a mass murderer, but there were some people I booked who I had no desire to know off-stage. It was interesting watching how the audience reacted to someone who seemed unusually self-loving, or cynical. My feelings aside, there were some people I booked who were fine musicians and singers and produced some memorable music that the audience didn't seem to warm up to as people. (None of them were Mudcatters, by the way.) If music is communication, I wonder how important it is for the musician to connect with the audience. I'm not talking about performing ability alone, although that is very important. There were some people who members of the audience said afterword, "Don't book them again." And, it wasn't that they weren't good enough, musically.

Just wondering if there have been musicians whose music you couldn't completely enjoy because they were so overbearing as people.

Only personal opinions allowed.

Save the truth for other threads.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Serial Picker
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 08:40 PM

Two of the finest guitarists I know (in fact they are two of the best in the world) have severe shortcomings in the personality department, (shortcomings which wouldn't be apparent to an audience) but it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of their music, either live or recorded.

Subject: RE: Serial Picker
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 04:05 AM

I agree. God is a funny old devil. He makes some real stinkers absolutely glorious musicians.

Subject: RE: Serial Picker
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 05:21 AM

You know, they say you can tell what God thinks about money by the kind of people He gives it to. Seems to go for other things too.

Subject: RE: Serial Picker
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 10:27 AM

For me, what kind of a person a musician is rarely impacts on my enjoyment of their music. But, there are some rare exceptions. There is an excellent, many-times-recorded musician who is not only y overbearing off-stage, but cannot mask his personality on-stage. Musician to be un-named (Not a Catter.)

The area where a musicians true nature does interfere with my enjoyment of their music is when they are hypocritical about messages they deliver on-stage. For example, if I knew that someone who was singing a protest song about discrimination was paying minority employees in his service less than he was paying WASP employees, I would have a serious problem, enjoying the song. Any singer who is presenting a "message" in song, while not living it themselves makes it difficult for me to enjoy the performance. This strikes home on rare occasion when I hear someone singing gospel, who appears to be just singing words to get the approval of the congregation. The only danger there is that I don't know whether they are sincere or not.
Sometimes, I must admit that I have my suspicions, and it gets in my way of hearing the message in the song.

But, it could be any message. Someone who I know is being blatantly hypocritical would have some affect on my appreciation of their music. Sometimes it's probably better now to know the musician off-stage. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Serial Picker
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 11:01 AM

yep...I loved the music of Gerry Hallom on record, but the one time I saw him in person, he came off as a pompous stuffed shirt who sang AT his audience, and preferred not to interact with them much...(as opposed to Martyn Wyndham-Read, who joked and mingled and loved the people he sang for.)

I hope I am wrong, and just caught Gerry H. on a bad night...

Subject: RE: Serial Picker
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 11:47 AM

Beware of Jerrys who spell their name with a G.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Serial Picker
From: Steve-o
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 11:52 AM

Yeah, Bill D hit it on the head. The place where this is absolutely significant is in live performance. It's easy to appreciate great music-making on a recording; if you come off as egotistical, stand-offish, or phony when you're playing live, you lose my vote immediately. But, (just to be a little smug myself) I have found that the vast majority of folk/folky musicians seem friendly, open, and genuinely "into it for the music" when they are performing. Not all.....but the majority.

Subject: RE: Serial Picker
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 12:07 PM

Well, not so much personality but an overt political agenda can change my opinion of a musician.

Recently we brought in a famous cowboy singer(un-named)who made enough ultra-conservative "redneck" comments on stage that several audience members walked out and asked for refunds. - Maybe not so much his politics, but his lack of judgement ??

Subject: RE: Serial Picker
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 12:45 PM

With musicians comes attitude more often than not.

If I like what they play, I really don't care, but if they are not my cup of tea, or worse yet, over rated, the attitude doesn't work for me.

Subject: RE: Serial Picker
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 01:29 PM

Don't remember when I learned this lesson, but I do remember learning it the hard way: there is no consistent connection between the person and the persona. Corollary: Keep your distance from professional performers lest your disappointment in them as human beings change your perceptions of them as musicians.

Subject: RE: Serial Picker
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 04:50 PM

A number of years ago, I had a chance to see a certain popular singer/songwriter--I had all of her albums, and loved her songs, her voice, her guitar playing--in fact, I thought she was one of the great talents of the time--til I saw her, and was completely turned off by her stage manner--

Couldn't even listen to her for a long time after that--

Subject: RE: Serial Picker
From: C-flat
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 01:26 PM

Some years ago I supported the great guitarist Stan Webb. I was really looking forward to meeting him but when it came to the sound check he was an obnoxious prat, shouting and pouting and generally giving everyone a hard time.
He certainly wasn't going to give any quarter to a nobody like me, nor was he going to let me sound check either!
Come the night, I had the pleasure of witnessing the other Stan Webb as he delivered a great set and a lesson in guitar playing but it was soured for me and the dozen or so others who had been exposed to him earlier in the day!
Nobody in the crowd went home dissapointed but one or two of us had lost a hero.

C-flat.

Subject: RE: Serial Picker
From: fat B****rd
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 04:08 PM

I just finished reading a slightly flawed bio of Van Morrison but I still like his music.

Subject: RE: Serial Picker
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 08:46 PM

FB:

Somehow, Rock stars and pop entertainers almost seem obligated to be at best, difficult, or at worst, obnoxious. It's like owning a sports car. You are under an obligation to drive 30 miles an hour over the speed limit. Otherwise, what's the purpose of having all that power under the hood? Maybe if Van Morrison had been blessed with a little more obscurity and had to work the folk circuit he would have been forced to tone down his attitude a little.

Or, maybe not.

Two of my "favorite" memories of an overly self-Inflated ego are from the same musician. On one occasion, he introduced me from the stage as an old friend of his who he'd played music with many times over the years, and then said, "Let's give a warm welcome to ERIC DARLING!"
When I called from the back of the room and said, "But, I'm not Eric Darling," He responded "Then who are you?" And he didn't seem even vaguely uncomfortable about having made a complete idiot out of himself. Probably didn't even realize it. This same musician used to come to other performer's concerts and set up tables outside the room, selling his own records and tapes.

The dictionary definition of puffed-up.

He was a mighty fine musician, though.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Serial Picker
From: Grab
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 08:48 AM

On the "person or persona" front. If someone is obnoxious on stage, at least you know that's what they're like. I'm a bit worried though about the ones who have a definite "stage persona", where the patter and the jokes and the attitude are clearly as rehearsed as the songs.

Tom Paxton comes to mind here - having got his biography/songbook, when I saw him last year, I only had to hear the start of a story/joke and I knew the end already because I'd read it in the songbook (right down to the exact words). So you start wondering how much he *is* actually empathising with the audience, and how much is a construct where someone's said "pause here and snicker a bit - they'll laugh". I'm sure he is actually a nice guy, but if you know all the lines beforehand then you come out feeling that he's not actually shown anything of himself.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Serial Picker
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 09:44 AM

Hey, Grab:

Let me assure you that Tom is a fine man. I've known him since before he cut his first album on the Gaslight label, and he was the one who recommended me to the Paton's at Folk Legacy. Tom was probably the most sincere, warm, modest person of the all the 60's folk singers I met in New York City, and was always encouraging others.

Part of the problem with people who make a living out of folk music, and play as many dates as someone like Tom is that they often resort to performing on auto-pilot, just to survive the exhaustion of all the one-night stands. The singer who most personified that for me is Bill Staines. I booked Bill many times, and liked his singing and songwriting as much as anyone. But, his introductions became almost word-for word. I didn't fault him for that because he often came rolling in looking completely exhausted, and he would fall back on his "stage routine." Off-stage, I never got to know Bill. I just think that he is a private person and carefully chooses who he opens up to.

The absolute worst of the "canned" performers I ever met was *&%$^# &^$%. (That was not meant to indicate swearing, as the person was o.k. They recorded every concert that they did, and then listened to the tape when they were on the road, listening for audience response.
Then, they'd fine-tune every word of the introduction and joke to maximize the laughter. For all that work, the person was not a particularly entertaining musician, because they did sound "canned," and there was no feeling of warmth or spontaniety in their performance. Nobody asked me to book the person again (which was quite unsual) and I never did.

Tom's a fine man, though... none better..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Serial Picker
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 09:53 AM

I'm not a Cereal Picker any more - my mummy made eat the whole bowl.

Subject: RE: Serial Picker
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 11:57 AM

Better to be a cereal picker than a nose picker..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Serial Picker
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 02:06 PM

A lot has to do with how you are pesonally treated by an artist. I tend to make judgements based on how well I am treated. But I also realize that those judgements have only to do with me and may have no bearing on what that artist has gone through in his/her life which makes them the way they are.

Nick Gerde once said, "If everybody likes you, than maybe you can't be very good."

What I think he meant is that there are personality traits that will be accepted or rejected depending upon where you're coming from. And if everyone likes your music, it means that it has no fiber and is bland and innocuous. It's hard to separate an artist from their personality.

Sinatra was brash, often angry but full of conviction about his art. Elvis found that he couldn't be all things to all people. Hence, drugs etc. Miles Davis was one of the most objectionable human beings ever known but played his horn with integrity, artistry and musicality. I can't say I like his later music but I respect what he did and in the early days played like an angel.

Sidney Bechet is another one. Killed a woman in Paris. Got off. Became a hero. Threatened fellow musicians with a fire arm over stuff like whether they thought he was an authentic New Orleans musician. One of the greatest jazz musicians ever.

Woody Guthrie cut a swath throughout his life alienating many who knew him as well as creating ardent fans.

I don't think that in the folk music field, it's any different than any other area of the arts. Some folks are just plain mean, rude, violent, ugly, self-centered and others are warm, kind, giving, possessing a higher conscienceness and concerned about their audiences. It has nothing to do with any kind of music.

Frank Hamilton