BS: Hitler's normal voice

Subject: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 08:56 AM

I had never heard it before today, for it normally has not been recorded. That screaming and gesticulating Chaplin parody he played in public appearances was long trained play acting.

I can say that though I easily would recognise his public voice I would not have recognised his private voice. It has been recorded once by chance and if you are interested to hear it you may go to

this German article.

The only video link on that site brings you to a TV feature with some bits of Hitler's normal voice. Whenever you see a tape running that is Hitler but also at some other places when you see the undertitles.

I hope you can access that site.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 09:09 AM

It's yom kippur today, what a bloody great day to start a thread about Hitler!
                   El ted
             (lapsed Methodist)

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 09:11 AM

Interesting, Wolfgang. I had hoped that Hitler had had a high, squeaky voice with a lisp, but instead he sounds rather ordinary. There is, to my ears anyway, the overtones of the voice of a trained speaker.

Did Hitler ever have speech lessons? Or was he self-taught?

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 09:22 AM

Wolfgan, could you please explain your point a little more. I can access the site and get the video but don't speak German and to be honest don't understand what you may be telling us.

I'm only asking btw, not be be insulting but as I often appreciate your thoughtful and often analytical posts, posts where it doesn't matter to me whether I'd agree with you or not - worth it just for the excercise in (my) thought!. I just don't get this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 09:48 AM

Yes,

Hitler had training and trained himself, both voice and body/hands.

My association when I heard that voice was Hannah Arendt's observation (and book) of the banality of the evil.
Eichmann on trial in Jerusalem: a minor German civil servant just doing his duty.
Goering in Nuremberg: just a general defending his country like all others but with less luck
Hitler on the tape: just sounding like any grandad (by the way he talks to Mannerheim of Finland about how the German tanks are not well prepared for a winter war in Russia).

That all these genocidal multiple murderers at other times can sound so banal and normal is a lasting admonishment that thegenocidal evil can return, given similar circumstances and that quite normal men can turn to homocidal maniacs.

That's why I posted this document. If anyone thinks that Yom Kippur is a bad day for reminding the banality of the evil I apologise to him or her. I had no intention at all to hurt anybody.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 10:01 AM

it was just an interesting thing to hear rare recordings where Hitler was not screaming and posturing. If he had gone on to be an artist, he would have been pretty ordinary. I still find it amazing that he was able to rise through the ranks to become the monster he was...

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: alanabit
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 10:09 AM

"The banality of evil". That is a telling phrase. You can read little slips of grey paper, neatly headed, with sentences on them like,"Confirmation of sentence to be carried out on Schmitz, Jung and Steiner on 23/4/44". There is a neat signature and a stamp and you can imagine some mild mannered civil servant placing it in his out tray along with the rest of the admin work which had to be done that day. That is what it was really like for most of the people involved in the apparatus of that terrible system.
A recent film has been released in Germany, featuring one of the finest actors here, Bruno Ganz, as Hitler. I will go to see it. It has caused considerable discussion, because the Hitler portrayed is not mainly the ranting monster parodied by Chaplin. He is a soft spoken man, who speaks tenderly to Eva Braun. Hitler inspired loyalty and confidence among many people. It was not the speech making ranter which made him friends on a personal level.
Because we so loathe the system he built and the evil he unleashed, we find it convenient to turn him into a two dimensional model of evil without any human characteristics whatsoever. It gives us a feeling of moral certainty and - a picture book image of right and wrong - good guys and bad guys.
I found one of the most frighteneing film performances I ever saw, was Tony Curtis's portrayal of the Boston Strangler. This mild mannered little man - (was he called Alberto de Salvo?) - committed a series of horrendous murders and rapes. At home he was a little hen pecked husband. It is quite possible for people with some sympathetic characteristics to do the most horrendous things. In a way, that's what I find really frightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 10:15 AM

It should not be forgotten that he had much practise in speaking in public over time to crowds of increasing size. PA's as such were not very common - especially in venues that were 'normal size' and that were not enormous such as in the giant rallies. People had to project their voice to carry, and many did not have the training to stop screeching. And after a while, no doubt, he was expected to carry on like that in public.

~~~~~~~~~~
If people like Hitler are forgotten, and more importantly, how they came to power is not remembered, we will, no doubt, have to have another like, or even worse than him.

Which is why some people have been looking rather hard at some world leaders actions over the last 60 years....

Robin
P.S.
I had a little hassle trying to access the thing (and gave up - My German is not adequate to handle the messages there) - It seemed to want me to load Real Player (God knows what version!) and have currently loaded several versions... and I prefer other players anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 10:19 AM

Hmm, Wolfgang, I dont know about the trainig but one voice and sounding like somone's grandad it does bring out to me a different scarey reality. That is in cases of child abuse, the most likely culprits will be people well known to the child and truted - perhaps even a parent!

I have another scare too, perhaps one that leads to please that I'm insane but also one to do with my belief there are forces outside the ones we know. I can understand their were problems and reasons but I just don't get why Hitler who to me in his speaches I've seen (not understanding German of course) sounds like a raving lunatic should be so well accepted - my theory that you will no doubt laugh at is there are demons that can whisper in peoples ears and say "yes that's right" and people will blindly agree as if it is thier own thought.

I hope I don't come across as insulting Germans here. I've no reason to believe they are or were any different to any other humans and also have no idea who within Germany would have supported what (exept for the persecution of Jews bit). The last person from that country I spent any time (maybe a day) with was someone known here - mudguard/andreas/andy. He has the rare honour (if indeed it is an honour) of being one of the rare people to me that I genuinely would trust with my life (and I don't say things like that lightly).

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 10:19 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 10:19 AM

it 'streams' Real Player, and if you have RealAlternative installed, it won't even try to get Real

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 10:29 AM

Jon,

if today's Germans listen to Hitler there is nothing of the fascination there must have been for some of my parents' grandparents' generation, but usually an urge to laugh and we wonder how anyone could take this man serious.

That comes not only from historical knowledge that of course influences those of my age.

Play his speech voice to pupils who have never heard it and don't know who that is and they'd tap their heads to indicate they think this man's not really sane.

Even the very old Germans (nearly all) rehearing his voice in a documentary shake their heads and say they can't understand now any of the fascination. Very different times.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 11:02 AM

Incredibly insightful observations, friend Wolfgang. I think that the fact that a society as well educated, and progressive, as Germany's was and is, could become enthralled and blindly follow the man that has been characterized as one of the most evil men that ever lived, is exactly the point. Often my brethren and sistren in the States act as though this could never happen here. We act as though Germans were somehow more prone to this, or that some part of their culture left them more open to this man. We act as if Hitler himself was an anomaly that could never happen anywhere else. In neither case is that true. Hitler's case was the extreme of what can happen when a demogogue comes into power. The fact that he reminds us of our own grandparents, in the ordinariness of this tape, shows the potential for evil when a leader and his followers start blindly becoming convinced of the rightness of their position, and chastise, punish, or even kill those with contrary positions or whose existence threatens the point being made. There is a very thin line between being guided by one's principles, and buying into one's self created image. As regards the German peoples, one should not just examine the war years, but rather the last several centuries. One should not focus on the cultural differences, as much as the cultural and historical similarities, in order to learn the lesson of the times. The world was plunged into the most destructive conflict of all times, by ordinary folks listening to slogans, berating anyone who spoke against conventional wisdom of the times, and accusing folks of treasonous behaviour if they dissented. In the belief that theirs was almost a holy mission, and by closing themselves off from world opinion, this otherwise decent people supported a regime that committed some of the most horrific crimes ever perpetrated by people against each other.

There are so many parallels one could draw to modern times. I would hope that those that choose to rightfully scorn and hate the Nazi era, would cease to rely so much on the "but there are important differences" logic, and examine the common themes from that time and now. It is there that we will gain insight, learn from the past, end new injustices, and maybe create a better world with each passing generation. Ignore these lessons, or worse interpret them wrong, and the past will revisit us. The righteous will become the criminal, and set back the progress towards a better world.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 11:48 AM

Thanks wolfgang. It goes nowhere of course towards my demon theory but is a good indication that people from wherevere are people and sometimes are capable of supporting the insane.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 11:50 AM

Don't want to be a anonomous here - last post was mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 12:10 PM

I've met a lot of men and women who were true heroes in WW1 and WW2 (I'm related to one or two) - guys who were Spitfire and Hurricane pilots, Mosquito pilots of the Pathfinder Force, an uncle by marriage who was in the Paras and fought at Arnhem and other places, etc. etc., and I've always been absolutely amazed to find that they're just 'ordinary' people. Nothing special about them, they wouldn't stand out in a crowd. And until I was told of their exploits I would never have guessed about them.

I've also met some real bastards - drug-dealers, incestuous fathers, all sorts - and they too were, on the face of it, very ordinary and wouldn't stand out in a crowd. And until I was told of their exploits I would never have guessed about them.

If heroes are just ordinary people, why wouldn't villains be the same?

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Raedwulf
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 01:28 PM

Very good point Johnny! That, of course, is the most frightening about both heroes & villains, but we never question heroes, do we...

I have to say that my reaction to Hitler's 'ordinary' voice was not "grandad" but "kindly teacher/professor". It gives one a greater understanding of just why & how someone can gain the power that he did. Public rhetoric is not enough, one must also hold the inner circle, & a voice like that is a powerful weapn in the armoury.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 01:35 PM

From The Ballad of Ginger Goodwin by Bill Gallaher:

There are those that say that evil was Ginger Goodwin's middle name...
I know there's villains and there's heroes, sometimes they are just the same.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 04:31 PM

I heard Hitler once on the radio. It was in the house we lived in 1938-39, so I would have been seven or eight. I have never forgotten it.

I remember mad hysterical gabbling and shrieking, and the crowd roaring back, more beastlike than beasts, and how it frightened me.

I have wondered since if that was creative memory -- did it really sounded like that or have I been influenced by what I learned later? Listening to this tape, though, brought it all back; it's just as I remembered it, and my hands are shaking now and I have a hollow feeling in the pit of my stomach. I can hardly believe it has affected me so strongly after sixty-five years or so but it has. My god

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 06:22 PM

Clint Keller's reaction to what to others is laughable, would be typical of the people alive at the time of WWll.

Here in England Dachunds - yes those long, low and rather inoffensive dogs, were tortured and starved and drowned because they were German.

Quite a number of people were killed by armed civillians because they were deaf and did not hear their challenge or order to stop - often spoken by people who had gone to school with them and seen them walk or cycle along the road at that time every working day for years.   

When we removed the paneling from the staircase here we found that the rails on the landing had been kicked out - because they are in the shape of a swastika - we could tell by the fixings and the ones on the stairs, which are on a slant and therefore not the reviled shape.

Hitler and the rest were not truely evil - they were sinply terrorists - they wanted power - but isn't that what men want? They did all that they did in order to have power over the rest - it seems a simple and effective method and it requires great effort to overthrow the systems they create.

If you look at any terrorist stronghold, The Third Reich, Ireland, modern day dictatorships and post dictatorships, the pattern is always the same - it hardly takes much thought to recognise how they creation of 'Us' and 'Not Us', the rewards, the punishments, the teaching of the young people, so they did not just fear or hate they were maniacally opposed even to the existance of the 'Not Us'.

If you read the background to the song 'The Peat Bog Soldiers' you will see how Hitler began to change German society.

It seems fairly easy, with a certain ruthlessness, to convince some part of any population that they are being 'done down' by another group, that they are right to use any means to get rid of the menace, so the property of the enemy can be used to reward the activists, can be used to further the cause, pay bounties for information leading to the suppression of those moderates who speak out, the enforcing of the new system.

People who truely believe that they are creating a better world are not evil.

A person who works to destroy a group, race or culture whilst knowing they are doing wrong is tainted with evil - some propagandists felt it terribly, and had to use their intellect to justify the need, and their sense of self preservation, in order to obey orders as opposition to the war effort was more than frowned upon.

I have always felt that Hitler, being rather short dark and weedy was quite a clever chap to persuade strapping tall blondes that he should be in charge and at the same time get them to believe that they were the master race.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 07:44 PM

Yes, it was rather incongrous, wasn't it? Goering, Himmler, and Goebbels did not exactly match the outer appearance of supermen either, did they...although Goering was certainly supersized! The Luftwaffe personnel who suffered under his command called him "Der Dicke" (the Fat One) behind his back. He had once been a trim young pilot in the First World War, but he must have consumed way too many beers in the interim.

None of those peope saw themselves as evil. To the contrary, they imagined that they were opposing evil and leading the World into a new era of social progress. Such is the delusion of most, if not all leaders of aggressive militaristic governments.

The Nazis were extreme idealists and nationalists who totally failed to grasp that their exaggerated ideals were fatally flawed (given that they were built around completely false notions of racial superiority/inferiority rather than around the idea of human equality).

Mussolini had the same problem, and so, in fact, did the Japanese leadership. Stalin was a monster of a different sort...he sought absolute power and control for its own sake and trusted no one and nothing, as far as I can see.

Fascism was elitism...extreme elitism...allied with a belief in exercising conquering power through aggressive military means. That sounds to me like a rather similar psychology to what presently drives American foreign policy.

To behave that way you must believe passionately in the innate goodness and superiority of your own system...and the innate evil of your opponents (targets).

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 07:51 PM

To put this into some sort or perspective.   Orators orate. That is a truism. Be it FDR, Bryant, Lincoln---or a demon like Hitler. They capture the masses.   Sadly---today's current crop of politicos---W and Kerry included do not. Though W knows the soundbyte mentality of our nation---and his obfuscations in one liners give him improper credence.

All of the above, I am sure, spoke quite differently in private. As did Marc Antony---Shakespeare notwithstanding. So did Churchill--as my interviewee THEODORE once said---Churchill is boring at home and great on the platform. Probably true of most charismatic figures.

So-=--does anyone really care if Hitler was different or not. Different than his public persona. We know what he was and how, strangely, the masses decided to allow a madman and lunatic to rule their lives and snuff out the lives of others. He appealed to base instincts and was sweet at home. Nice!!!

I speak and understand German so viewing this just proved to me that some media in the Vaterland still like to cash in on dear old Adolf. Albeit in, what they consider, a very objective sense. Bottom line---it gets notoriety.   Somewhat akin to our supermarket checkout news rags.

Is that like the 11 PM newscasts---child molested and murdered---neighbors---"...he was a quiet man---so nice to his wife and children".

A discussion of dear old Adolf is a glorious waste of time and another example of keeping alive a black part of our human experience.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 07:57 PM

It's not a waste of time for someone who is interested in the subject, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 08:20 PM

I'm not sure what you're saying about my reaction, but I was seven or eight years old, living at the north end of Idaho,and I had no political agenda. Europe was a long way off at that time.

"Hitler and the rest were not truely evil - they were sinply terrorists - they wanted power - but isn't that what men want?"

No. It's not. I would have liked more power over my own life, perhaps, but that's about it. I have better things to do than become Emperor -- it would take every minute of my time to make a serious try, and every minute of my time if I succeeded. Look about you -- most people don't even want to be president or prime minister. Or mayor.

And Hitler may not have been truly evil, but he might as well have been; he did truly evil things.

Hitler was indeed a clever chap, but "clever" is an ability that is either laudable or condemnable, depending of what end you turn it to. It has no more value in itself than the ability to pick locks.

WWII was not the Good War many people claim it to be, but living under the Third Reich would have been hell.

Hitler may be laughable now, to some, but in his time,in his context he was not. He was deadly to many. Napoleon, too is now a funny little man, but not in his time. We sufffer from temporal provinciality.

But all I knew then, in the thirties, was that he sounded scary. And I believe now my feeling was right.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 08:49 PM

Little Hawk: Given that Adolf has been covered much over the years would it not be better to not enlarge his place in history with nonsensical pieces about his "natural" voice. I am sure that any despot you can name---Saddam comes to mind given his recent notoriety---as being a really nice "family man" and having a "nice way of speaking" when not on the podium, so to speak. (No pun intended)

I could name others but that would just be gilding the lily as they say. My point is that we encourage despotism by constantly discussing and remembering---and giving legitimacy to----despots.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 09:55 PM

I don't agree, Bill. I think that to discuss despots and to know more about them is of considerable aid to people, in that it helps them to be watchful against the rise of future despots, and it helps them understand the past better. To discuss Hitler, or to recognize that he had some fairly ordinary human characteristics is NOT to encourage despotism. It is to shine a useful light upon it and understand better just how easily it can happen. No human being is all bad...Hitler included. And good people can be led astray. Studying the lives of despots and their success in manipulating ordinary people makes this abundantly clear...and to know it should increase one's sense of brotherhood and compassion for people of a different nation or race who happened, through the vagaries of history, to be seen as one's enemies at one time or another.

I'll say this, though. What we do need very much to do is give a great deal more attention to people like Gandhi...people who did a great deal of good in this World. They do not tend to get nearly as much notice as the despots do.

You hear a lot about western gunfighters (who were good at killing people). How much do you hear about the teachers, builders, writers, educators, and other creative people who brought peace and prosperity to the American West? Bad news has always made good copy, it seems, cos people like it for the dramatic aspects.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,Augie
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 10:17 PM

"Hitler and the rest were not truely evil - they were simply terrorists - they wanted power - but isn't that what men want?"

My dear Guest Anne,it most assuredly is not what I want, nor is it what most of my male friends want. I would much rather have peace, personal freedom, and respect(OK, and maybe a pre-war Martin too),and if Hitler wasn't the walking,breathing definition of true evil then your definition of evil is severely flawed.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 10:18 PM

I used to give a lecture to leadership conferences for High School Seniors from the Grand Rapids metro area. There I was in front of a couple thousand high school kids all waiting for me to explain leadership. It dawned on me to tell them of two men. They both lived at about the same time in history. They both had the ability to sway groups of people, and it can be said that both loved their respective country. I further pointed out that both of them changed the world in profound ways. One of them was Gandhi, the other Hitler. Often being a good leader means choosing carefully who you will follow. This is often clouded by the conditions at the time, but it is why having base values which come from timeless truths is so important.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 11:18 PM

No, Hitler is not the walking definition of evil. He is the walking definition of a very flawed and paranoid man with some unusual political abilities who thoroughly lost his way and attained great power...but did not know how to use it wisely or well. The destructive things he caused to happen are the definition of great evil, as we collectively assess it. War is a great evil. Murder is a great evil. Genocide is a great evil. Torture is a great evil. False propaganda is a great evil. Dictatorial rule and the use of terror tactics are a great evil. Waste is a great evil. Greed is a great evil. Brutality is a great evil.

Had Hitler simply become an obscure painter, and lived a quiet life...which could well have happened...those destructive things would not have come to pass....at least not because of him...and people would not be seeing the man, Hitler, as definitive of evil.

It isn't the man who is evil...the man is tragic. It was the results of the man's instability which were evil...as we assess those results...given the way we would all like life to be.

We would all like our lives to be peaceful, happy, and prosperous. If we are not wise enough to find a way of seeking that without hurting other people in the process, if we blame other people for our own pain and fear, then we fall into the very trap Hitler fell into. He did not see humanity as one people, united in common purpose. Gandhi did. Thus Hitler turned to hate and division and violence and Gandhi turned to Love and nonviolence. Gandhi saw the way clearly. Hitler did not.

This does not make Hitler evil...it makes the results of his extreme lack of vision evil. Hitler was tragic, as are most human beings, to some extent...but not too many of them get a chance to screw up as enormously as he did.

I am convinced that no human Soul is intrinsically evil. But I do not expect to convince anyone of that if they choose to believe otherwise. Their belief is naturally up to them, as mine is up to me. Our beliefs will take each of us, no doubt, down the roads most suitable to our own chosen way of learning. That's acceptable to me, and I hope it is to you too.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 12:07 AM

Well, I believe with Mr Clinton that a lot depends on your definition of "is." A person who has stolen "is" not necessarily a thief and someone who does dumb things is not always stupid.

But as I said to Anne Croucher, Hitler may not have been truly evil, but he might as well have been. He did truly evil things.

What would he have done differently if he had been "truly" evil?

Whether he was truly evil in his heart is between him and whtever God he had. It's academic from anyone else's viewpoint. What the world knows, what has affected us all, are his evil actions. And I believe that human evil and - possibly - absolute evil do exist.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 12:22 AM

Well, it certainly exists as a concept. We are beings who like to look at things in terms of duality. We establish reference points along a range of values. At one end we put "good", at the other end "evil"...or hot and cold...or whatever.

To a pilot in the Luftwaffe in 1940 it was "good" to shoot down a Hurricane or Spitfire over England. To a British pilot it was "good" to shoot down a Messerschmitt or a Heinkel. It's mostly a matter of perspective, I guess. They all did what they thought was good at the time.

The priests in the Spanish Inquisition thought it was "good" to torture and burn those wretched people they held prisoner...since they had assessed those people as supposedly being servants of Satan.

Each culture decides for itself what is good or evil...usually depending on what material and power results that culture is seeking at the time.

I would tend to agree with you, though, that "Hitler may not have been truly evil, but he might as well have been. He did truly evil things." Makes sense to me.

Be assured, Hitler imagined that he was defending what he saw as the "good" values. He had a very fractured and isolated view of reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 03:57 AM

Bill H - pretending Hitler didn't exist (which is what your suggestion that we shouldn't remember or discuss him means) is a gross insult to those millions of soldiers, sailors, airmen and civilians who gave their lives fighting his regime, and those millions of Jews, Romanies, Homosexuals and innocent members of other minority groups who were the victims of his regime. You don't defeat villainy by burying your head in the sand, you defeat it by always keeping it in mind and working hard to prevent it happening again.

I'd guess you're a US resident. If not, I apologise for preaching to you. But if so, maybe you should arrange to come over here during November and take a look around the 'American Cemetery' at Cambridge with its thousands upon thousands of war-graves of US servicemen, tour the old now-disused USAF bomber bases and have a walk around some of the churchyards in the villages close by, and see clusters of gravestones of your countrymen. You should also witness the annual Remembrance Festivals and services that take place in towns and villages all over the UK, and culminating in the 'big ones' of the Albert Hall and the Cenotaph, and check out the way the people of the UK, most of whom weren't even alive during WW2 let alone WW1, watch the TV coverage in their millions. Then see if you still believe we should pretend that bastard never existed.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 09:02 AM

LH, the human soul is not evil is perhaps a debatable one. There are areas in Christianity and perhaps in other religions (I've never looked at ant other) that suggest man is inherintly evil. I don't know - all I do know is that man can be capable of evil deeds and I suspect most of us have evil thoughts that we know to put down - I mean for example, have you never walked into a shop and been tempted to steal but said to yourself "no, I know I must not do something like that".

As I type this, I realise once again there a conflicts within myself - I would argue stealing is wrong but I have no concience over some software pirating. I wonder are we all some sort of conflict between right and wrong and trying to find our own balance between good and evil?

Forgetting whether a person may be good or evil, I think twice in my life I have met people that no-one seemed able to reach (and they weren't people I diliked and even amongst my enemies I can find some good quality if I am prepared to look). One was someone the garrage I worked for at the time had taken on to help. I had him for a while on the forecourt and tried my best... to cut it short he ended up getting sacked for nicking a few 5p pieces from the coffee machine when he got drinks for all... from there on he stole a car and got himself killed hitting a bus. The other was an old alcoholic (before my own drink problems). I'd visit him at night, sometimes stopping till 3am but that wasn't enough, Pip somtimes took a Sunday meal to him and the 1st comment would be "could have put more roasts on" or some other complaint.

What I'm trying to say here is I know this doesn't mean a good or evil person but I have known 1st hand conditions where no effort I was capable of was even able to raise a spark in any way. The feeling of personal failure is horrible but the belief there was nothing anyone could have done for them also exists. The human to me does seem able at least to reach hopeless states. Reading of Brady for example also leads me to think people can reach the state of evil beyond recall but I can't claim to have met anyone like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 09:07 AM

Jon, in reading your post I find that it contradicts your first statement. Your thoughtfullness and basic decency shine through. We may not always agree on things, but you are a decent human being with its good soul intact.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 09:40 AM

Jon, in reading your post I find that it contradicts your first statement

No problem at all with that Mick. I try to be consistant but one thing I'm realising as I try to analysise good and evil is that it does bring out contradictory thoughts with in me...

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 10:31 AM

I don't believe Hitler was the epitome of evil either. I don't believe Hitler did all the evil things he's often accused of. His followers did, but it's too hard to blame a faceless mass of people. It doesn't seem right to blame that prison guard who shepherded people to their deaths, the police who arrested people for not toeing the line or neighbors and acquaintances who ratted out Jewish people, homosexuals, communists, or anyone else that didn't fit in with the plan. It's not possible to identify and blame every person who helped give Hitler all the power he had, who raised a hand in salute, or who merely didn't speak out against the atrocities. These were average people, like you or like me.

We need somebody to blame.
We need somebody to follow. What Hitler was good at was public speaking and knowing how to get to people - how to stir them up and convince them he was right. He was good at controlling crowds and directing dissatisfaction and outright anger, and persuade people that his solutions were the best ones.

Hitler wasn't solely responsible for all the horrors visited upon innocents, even if those horrors were done in his name. Average people did those things. Average people who wanted to follow more than they wanted to question. Who, in the heat of rightiousness, ignored conscience and rational thought, and gave their individual power to an insane man. But, he sounded good.

I wasn't born at the time, but I've heard and watched recordings of Hitler speaking. He sounds like a nut. I try to listen to people who speak today to hear that same manipulative quality in their voice. I don't think the danger to humanity has ever been one particular nut or another. The lesson I learned is that the danger lies in us, and in our fellow humans' need to be stirred up and aimed at some cause. We need to listen to our consciences, and we need to question where we're being led. These are the only things that will prevent something like WWII and the Holocaust happening again. They're the only things that will make us think we might want to look for a different path, or see that there is one at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 10:45 AM

Re: the banality of evil   If you accept that evil is in the world at all, it seems to me that you must accept that   Hitler was evil ( and not just typically male). It may have been innate, or partially caused by his early experiences, particularly his frustrations on many levels, but he was in fact evil, and circumstances in Germany allowed him to express this on a huge scale.

As far as the voice: when I was in Germany I bought a little book called " Haben Sie Hitler gesehen?"--answers by ordinary Germans as to if they'd ever seen Hitler, and their reactions. One I particularly was struck by was the answer of a salesman, born in 1929, who said that he had a neighbor who said that when Hitler spoke " I could have just about stroked the radio" ("ich koennte geradezu das Radio streicheln ". It's unlikely she would have had that reaction to a rant.

My masters thesis was on the Nazi attitude toward the US as seen in the" Voelkischer Beobachter" (as you know, one of the official Nazi organs). It was fascinating to see in the pages of this "newspaper" how the picture changed. It was by no means unrelenting hostility.

At the start the focus was on similarities to the US--the approach was that both countries, in desperate circumstances, had summoned up strong leaders with bold new programs. Contrary to popular opinion, at least in the VB, Jesse Owens was lauded.

The picture obviously darkened as Hitler planned war. As US hostility became more evident, the VB ascribed it to FDR being misled by "amoral" Jewish advisors. In 1939-40 the focus was on alleged British atrocities, and then on Britain's isolation---the implication being that there was no point to the US being involved (thus, I suppose, to the German audience, that it was unlikely--in fact as you know Hitler declared war on the US first, saving FDR from a possible awkward situation.)

In the early stages of the war the VB started printing obituaries of many Germans killed, but soon ceased that entirely. And only at the end of the war were there screaming headlines warning of Bolshevik hordes ( and wondering at the West's suicidal attitude in allowing this to happen).

Sorry for the thread creep.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 11:31 AM

In case anyone's immediate reaction to what I said is to believe I'm trying to excuse Hitler; no, and I DO think he was evil. My point is that there have been, and are, loads of people who are just as evil as he was. The difference between them and Hitler is that, for whatever reason, they don't haven't been given the power to act on their evil by followers.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 01:15 PM

That was a brilliantly perceptive post, Jeri. (the first one) Well said.

Leaders like Hitler are not responsible by any means for ALL the evil things that result under their leadership (although they do bear great responsibility for inspiring much of it). The complicity of many other ordinary people is required. The leader, as such, becomes a symbol of all that in the eyes of those opposing his nation...just as Saddam Hussein became a propaganda symbol around which George Bush was able to arrange an oil war. While Saddam is undoubtedly a bully boy and a despot, he does not add up to be the apotheosis of total evil that was concocted by American propaganda in order to manipulate public opinion in the USA.

People get carried away with this sort of thing.

I wonder how the average Palestian, for instance, would rate Ariel Sharon or George Bush on the good-to-evil scale? :-)

It is the losers of wars who get nominated for "most evil man of all time"...generally by the people who defeated them. It's a familiar refrain. The Germans saw Churchill that way...and Roosevelt and Stalin. They would have put any one of them on trial and executed them for "crimes against humanity", had Germany won that war...and they would have felt very righteous about doing so, I'm sure.

Be that as it may, I will agree without reservation that the Nazi system was an exceedingly evil one...as was Stalin's government too. The American and British governments of the time were in large measure self-serving (as governments generally are) but they were definitely far, far better in a moral sense than either the Nazis or Stalinist Russia.

Jon - Yes, I'm familiar with those Christian notions of man being inherently evil. I consider such notions to be completely erroneous and most unfortunate. There are certain individuals, however, who are profoundly negative on a conscious and instinctive level...as you described. Those are people who are living in great fear and ignorance (but they may not superficially appear fearful if their fear causes them to be aggressive or cunning in their effort to cope). I don't believe the Soul of such a person is evil, but the surface mind of the person certainly is turned toward evil as a survival mechanism. It's a case of the person's mind being cut off from useful connection with the Soul...because of fear.

We are capable of making choices along a range from most positive to most negative. When we are afraid and feel separate and vulnerable, we tend to move toward the negative end of the scale.

The Soul is never afraid in the least, because it knows it is immortal and invulnerable. The surface mind is usually afraid on many levels, because it identifies itself with a mortal and quite vulnerable body. From that limited awareness flows the materialistic and fearful view of life. The mind can be freed from such fear by becoming intimately acquainted with the Soul and taking the Soul's direction and inspiration...and that is what spiritual discipline is all about.

What is the purpose of the Soul? To express and to be Love under all circumstances. Since a human being IS his/her Soul...permanently...and is not truly the body/mind (which are temporary constructions that pass away)...that is why I say that human beings are essentially good.

The eternal Soul of the man you described at the garage would see that very negative life of his, once it was over, the way you or I might see a bad dream that we had just woken up from...not real, but of some use in further understanding the interplay of what we term "good and evil". The Soul would have been watching the whole process from a point of detachment while it unfolded...and the man himself would have had no awareness of that on the level of his mortal mind...which figured it was all alone in an insecure world of physical win/lose scenarios based upon mere survival, and apparently devoid of love or of any higher purpose.

There's very little in mainstream society to encourage people to think anything other than that...but there's an essential nobility in the heart of humankind that leads them eventually toward the wisdom of the Soul, and its one teaching, Love. Only question is, when? If not now, when?

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Chris Green
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 01:35 PM

I think that sometimes we comfort ourselves with the notion that people like Hitler, Stalin etc were insane. As I understand it the legal definition of insanity is that the person accused did not understand the consequences of their actions, and this certainly does not apply to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot or any of the other leaders of the twentieth century who were responsible for genocide on a massive scale. They weren't insane, merely evil, however, uncomfortable it may be for us.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 01:56 PM

Yes, but on a conscious level they regarded what they were doing to be accomplishing something that they saw as...."good"!

So, how do you explain that? Do you really think that Hitler got up in the morning and thought things like, "What really evil terrible thing can I do today? How can I make more people suffer today? How can I make the world worse today? How can I spread pain and misery today?"

LOL!

No, he got up in the morning and thought things like, "How can I protect and strengthen the German nation today? How can I secure a victory for our armies? How can I defeat the treacherous enemies that menace us on all sides? How can I root out the traitors and criminals within our midst who would destroy our nation? How can I save Europe from the scourge of Bolshevism?"

Those were obviously his main conscious concerns...and they had already led him into a total mess by the time the Second World War began. Paranoia is its own worst enemy.

You can call it evil if you want. I call it fear, weakness, and ignorance, and I call its results in the world evil.

I don't exactly think Hitler was insane, I think he was paranoid and unstable. Such people can eventually go insane when put under great pressure...Hitler had various hysterical episodes which qualified as temporary insanity, after the war started going badly for Germany. He would fly into screaming rages and lose all control. That's temporary insanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 02:12 PM

"What Hitler was good at was public speaking and knowing how to get to people - how to stir them up and convince them he was right" Jeri

I would add that Hitler knew how to affirm the people's belief that their secret - and not so secret - prejudices and biases were correct. I suspect that he didn't have to start from ground zero.

Which may be what is going on now in the US. Reagan did the same thing, I believe, by making some people feel that the "unfortunates" must be flawed or bad in some fundamental way, or they too would be able to prosper.

Who knows where this kind of thinking will end. I think we are well on the way.

A Juneauy songwriter, Buddy Tabor, wrote a song, 'Jesus Loves Me" (more than he loves you) that addresses that. One of his lines says "I'd help you but I know you'd just go and sin again."

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 02:23 PM

Right on, Ebbie. Hitler was most certainly not starting from ground zero. There are currents of fear and prejudice present in any population which can be tapped into and used by a clever politician to advance a destructive national policy (which of course HE sees as being a constructive and worthwhile national policy).

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Teresa
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 02:23 PM

I think this is a timely discussion, because any of our very important world leaders could have the potential to exercise the same power that Hitler did. The things that happened under Hitler still happen today around the world, although not as widely recognized.

I think it takes a combination of factors to come into play for a despot to become truly effective.

Suppose the United States were in the middle of something resembling the Great depression, and had just fought and had been defeated mercilessly in a great war. What kind of leader might Bush be under these circumstances?

T

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 02:27 PM

And what sort of extreme actions might his electorate willingly support under those circumstances...and who might they blame for their troubles?

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 02:58 PM

I'm curious. The powers-that-were--How did they react to the stripping? Greece? Rome? England?

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 03:16 PM

Yup - The bullies get their power from us.

If only people would stop being blinded by fear and start listening to their hearts the attrocities would never happen. Ignorance and fear lead to an awful lot of pain.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 03:23 PM

"Christian notions of man being inherently evil" - "prone to evil" is the way I've normally heard it put. Meaning quite liable to go wrong in some circumstances, and that seems common sense, and consistent with experience.

.................
This "ordinary voiced Hitler" is a useful reminder that we shouldn't be hung up by the image we have of Hitler ranting and raving in public. I mean we should resist any tendency to use that as a reason for complacency. "These people sound reasonable enough - they don't sound anything like Hitler in those speeches".

But that's just a way of speaking in a particular setting, in a huge rally with imperfect PA. To put the same message across on television you'd have to use different techniques - sound warm and frendly and trustworthy, for example. But it would be the same message for all that.

In the same way people get to think that the stage trappings of Nazism were what it was all about - the uniforms, and the mass parades and the pageantry. And then they start thinking that, when those things aren't to be seen, it means there is nothing to worry about.

We are now living in a time when, because of technology, those in power, potentially, have total control over our lives in all its detail, in a way that no previous rulers could even dream of. There'd no need for a modern day Hitler or Stalin to use the clumsy tools of the past in order to shape society in a way that ensured holding on to power.

That's why it is important to realise, for example, that Hitler was quite capabe of speaking in an ordinary voice, and even of coming across to people as pleasant and affable.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 04:48 PM

The just released film is AWSOME! Very well done. Very accurate. Very chilling. A work of genius.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 06:46 PM

Hitler was quite capabe... even of coming across to people as pleasant and affable

One q

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Chris Green
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 07:18 PM

Little Hawk - I think you may have misunderstood me (unsurprisingly as I didn't express myself very well in my previous post - this is still something I'm teasing out in my own mind!) What I was referring to was the concept of "guilty but insane" that I believe still stands in law - ie: that someone may have done terrible things but cannot be held culpable for them as they had no idea what they were doing was wrong. (I believe it's known in the UK as the McNaghten Law, after the bloke who tried to assassinate the Prime Minister was found guilty but insane). What I was trying to say is that is not only wrong but dangerous to apply this verdict on Hitler and his ilk - they must surely have been aware that the genocide of people purely because of their race or creed was morally and in every other sense repugnant.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 09:26 PM

After reading Little Hawk's and Jeri's posts I think I now finally understand how OJ was acquitted. Those who don't learn from history...

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 10:10 PM

No Guest. I honestly think Jeri and LH have done no more that trying to rationalise human behaviour, as I tried. I do not believe that trying to understand good and evil in anyway would equate to (if im understading you correctly) to jusitifying actions we all know are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 10:25 PM

The exception to the above may be my demon theory but even if there are things like that, we still know right from wrong - at least we do within our own terms of undersanding/learning. The difficulty there would be listening to the right. I'm not promoting Christianity here or suggesting it is any more valid that any other belief system but the simple "Love thy neigbour" idea can go a long way regardless of faith. It is perhaps one we will all need to apply soon...

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 10:34 PM

Opps some of my last post was clumsy - I meant execption to my own thoughts... and I seem to have allowed the possibility that the exception to Jeri and LHs thoughts were...

Apologies to both of you.

It's a really hard one to get through but thanks Wolfgang for starting what is to me at least an intregiung thread. Other comments here have caused me to question myself, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 11:17 PM

Thanks for the link, Wolfgang, and to everyone else for this most interesting discussion. Mudcat at its best, other than the music threads.

Jon, there is a belief that entities of unhappy souls who refuse to move on, do plague the living, esp. if the living are open and willing for such things to come through. In metaphysical jargon, one might say their "root" chakra was wide open, while their "higher chakras," those which keep them in alignment with their god, would be almost closed, thus leaving them open, and, in some cases willing, for such attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 11:36 PM

I don't believe Hitler was the epitome of evil either.

Right.

"Frank and Jesse James were products of their environment.They were sent out into the woods by their parents to forage for berries, truffles, rutabagas, and roots of all sorts. Put yourself in their place: you'd have been mean, too."

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 11:55 PM

Hitler wouldn't have got anywhere if some rich and powerful businessmen hadn't thought that they could use him to make money for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:17 AM

I've often wondered if people actually understood what Hitler was saying. I've listened to a number of recordings, and can hardly make out a single word - as opposed to my almost full understanding of German radio and television. I've never heard anybody speak German like Hitler did.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:26 AM

OJ was aquited because 12 jurors didn't believe there was enough evidence to convict him. It's not the same thing, and I wonder if you didn't understand what I was saying at all.

I think there's plenty of evidence against Hitler. People were his weapons, his tools, but he was still responsible. And what can we learn from history that might keep this from repeating? We can learn not to be tools, we can learn not to be silent, and we can learn to question. If we say it's all the fault of one man, we have said we're powerless. If we deny our own responsibilities in making tyrants possible, this sort of history WILL repeat. It HAS repeated countless times, but never on such a grand scale. Not yet, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Teresa
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:29 AM

No offense to Austrians intended, but was Hitler Austrian? That might account for his "accent". Not the sort of dialect formally taught in American schools.

T

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:56 AM

So many thoughts---many valid.

Foolstroupe---good point re: business people making money of him---thing Industrial and Auto companies.

Jeri---The people who do evil do it in the name of the leader--he surely cannot do it alone. Were the leader not to incite them they would do no evil.   Many current political things come to mind---but Adolf was a cut above all that---playing on people's fears and hates.

StrollingJohny---in fact I was born in Vienna and saw the Anschluss as a child---Anschluss---the Austrians welcomed the barbarians with open arms. They were, until recently, less apt than the Germans to admit to their sins.
                   That said, I add that I am well aware of all the proper honors and memoriams for the sacrifices made to end this reign of terror and hatred.
                  What I am saying is that to try to humanize this epitomy of evil with the charisma of a great speaking voice that mesmerized people in a depression by talking about is "nice quiet voice at home" or some such thing is to trivialize him and place blame elsewhere. Best to remember the demagogue, the maniac, the power hungry paranoid.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 05:29 AM

Bill, I apologise for 'mis-placing' you in terms of your origins - I have a tendency to get very cross when people from 'across the ditch' give an impression that they don't have any appreciation of what the 1939-45 war in Europe involved, and what it meant for those who lived through it (which thankfully I didn't) and for many years afterwards (which I do indeed remember). I can see that you have good cause to understand that conlict - my apologies again. And a third apology for misunderstanding the reasoning of your post - I get your meaning now, and I agree with your final paragraph above.
Best wishes,
John

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 10:11 AM

...and Bill, the people who not only assist him, but especially those who just let him get away with it.

I live in Queensland, and tonight ABC2 TV had a retrospective look at The Springbok Tour of 1971, Premier Joh's declaration of a "State of Emergency' over a football game and the subsequent politics that led to the phrase "Queensland - Police State" - a famous bumper sticker in the checkered colours of the State Police. The Police Commissioner tried to resist him and was undermined by the rapid promotion from nowhere of one Terry Lewis to Deputy Commissioner, who was eventually sentenced to 14 years for Corruption by a famous Royal Commission.

It was on the way to happening here in Queensland - I lived though it. I was once filmed by The Special Branch for attending a Play at La Boite with a Political Theme.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 02:32 PM

I have come to believe that Hitler didn't give a rat's ass about the German people. I think his whole goal was to create a modern empire (emphasis on modern). This was only possible by destroying the old Germany and re-building with U.S. post-war funds (which I don't think have ever been re-paid). Thus the emergence of a totally modern Germany with brand new infrastructure.

He knew he could manipulate the masses through media but the minorities (being outside of the mainstream) would have to be exterminated or re-located.

...and who do you think won World War Two?

Yes, there is definitely evil in this world. Know your enemy.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 02:53 PM

...and place blame elsewhere.

But the main blame for Hitlerism did lie elsewhere, in the ordinary people who followed him and lifted him to power. Without them he'd probably just have been the kind of bore you sometimes run into in pubs, and avoid.

We may find it puzzling that so many ordinary people in Germany weren't repelled by his mannerisms, but the really terrifying things is that they weren't repelled by his message. And there is no reason to think that this was a matter of there being something peculiar about Gerrmans. If it could happen there, it could happen anywhere, given certain circumstances.   

The important thing is to work out what were the reasons why ordinary decent enough people could follow a Hitler, rather than to focus on the particular pathology or whatever of the man they followed.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 03:19 PM

He made the ordinary people feel as though they were under threat from the minorities he despised. They were scared and believed him. Yes, it could happen anywhere. The scariest part nowadays is that the means to destroy the supposed threat are far bigger, lethal and far reaching.
Our biggest threat at the moment wears a suit and a smile.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:11 PM

"He made the ordinary people feel ...

I think "made" is maybe a word that provides an escape from the reality.

The reality being "He told them all those things - and they decided to believe him".

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 05:51 PM

But it must have been the 'way' they were told that made them believe? He was either a natural orator/leader or a manipulator.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 05:58 PM

These are not mutually exclusive attributes---in fact they are complementary---with them both you can become evil incarnate. Which Der Fuhrer did---aslong with his group of sadistic and also manupulative henchmen.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 06:04 PM

Yes I agree with you. I think he did have all three, which made him evil IMO. Had he just the former he would be misguided but well meaning, and I can't accept that.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 06:20 PM

Noone is ever "made to believe" - we are tempted, cajoled, persuaded, whatever you call it. But the ultimate responsibility, when we fall into a trap like that, lies with ourselves. "We were led astray" is no more valid as an excuse than "we were only obeying orders".

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 06:44 PM

I agree with you too McG. I maybe should not have used the word 'made.'

'Persuaded' is far better. I think that the fact he could 'persuade' is testament to his skills as orator/leader/manipulator. And as Bill said, the combination of all three is IMO evil, when the consequences of his persuasion was fully known to himself.

I am not sure if I credit all of his followers with the same foresight. But the higher henchmen I am convinced had to have a sadistic streak that was capitalized upon.

I have no qualm labelling him evil. It is not a trait that I bandy around often, for which I am very glad. But I do genuinely think we are in the grip of similar sheep like worship of a true threat to the world as we have known it.

But I do not credit Bush with the intelligence that I think Hitler possessed. Apart from that, their agendas are as evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 08:06 PM

"No..." Mcgrath has it right as I think through this... I do find it far more worring that (at least for the purpose of this post) that rather than an "insane" preson leading it appears possible for the "insane" to lead the sane and the sane to belive they are still sane...

Jon (still trying to wrestle though a difficult but interesting thread)

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 08:36 PM

interjecting (late) about Jeri's post:

OJ was aquitted because 12 jurors didn't wouldn't find...etc..

a couple of them admitted that they INTENDED to acquit him from the beginning, and simply ignored all the mountains of evidence. This is how I hear some people talking about how they will vote in Nov. They have a preconceived notion of what should happen, and reject all argument to the contrary. Hitler knew how to play to those kind of minds, and how to make MORE of those kind of minds. Germany in 1930 was especially ripe for those ideas, but ANY country has its share of "my mind's made up, don't confuse me with facts" people, and we need to see that they are among us always.....and sometimes in charge.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 08:39 PM

Huh? I would want OJ acquitted? You must be joking. I thought he was guilty, dead guilty, so guilty that it was absolutely blatant. And so was Hitler (but not in his own eyes). For all I know, OJ probably felt "justified" in what he did too...but you bet he was guilty!

You're not even trying to comprehend what Jeri and I were talking about, oh, anonymous one.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: jack halyard
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 08:15 AM

On the subject of evil, I am reminded that Hitler aspired to be a painter and some of his works are still extant. Apparently he was a realist at a time when abstract and semi abstract were the fashion.
What might have happened had he been mentored by a sympathetic artist? We may have had a great painter instead of a great dictator.
I am also reminded that many in the middle east talk of the US as "The great Satan".

I keep wanting to ask "What is this thing called evil?"
We think we know it by its deeds, but what other forces may be acting on a man to produce those deeds.?

                              Jack Halyard

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 10:33 AM

You're all right. Hitler was deceptive. He was evil. The people were misled but if they had been taught to listen to their conscience instead of authoritarian figureheads, he would never had had so much power. The church has always instilled obedience in people. The Catholic church in Germany certainly contributed to the mass mentality of the people.

The only thing that we can do now is try to overcome our tendancy to give authority so much power in our lives. I'm sure Bush has studied Hitler extensively. At least he understands the power of the media to manipulate information - Hitler was a master at that.