Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?

Subject: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 09:28 PM

me & 'er indoors are set to split-

any advice from similar afflicted peops?

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 09:38 PM

Hi, Mr. Happy - do everything you can to be generous and peaceful and fair in your conduct toward one another. Remember that you once loved her, and that she will always have a significant effect upon your life. Hire an intelligent attorney who is interested in seeing that both parties are treated fairly (and stay away from cheap lawyers - they cost more in the long run, in both money and aggravation).
If there are children, remember that this is going to be tough on them, even if those children are now adults.
Do your best to stay friends with her.
Good luck.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: jimmyt
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 09:57 PM

Hey Mr H, Sorry to hear about this. We have 2 instances of friends going through this recently   one horrible and damaged, cost them both a lot of $ and the lawyers got rich. The other couple, similar in most ways, decided to make the most of the situation, got by reasonably, still are friends, kids are doing pretty well all in all, lawyers got a fair amount and everyone benefitted. Hope you are able to come out of this in good shape. Know that we are thinking of you though. jimmyt

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 10:05 PM

As above, especially about the cheap lawyers. You get what you pay for. If you feel you are not getting good representation get another one, it's cheaper in the long one. You need a shark to really protect your rights, not some guppy.

Do not take it personally, no matter what happens. Marriage is too easy, and divorce is too painful. Find it in your heart to forgive. If you are busy being angry, you are taking up energy that is best used elsewhere.

Move on and accept that when one chapter closes, the next begins.

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 10:07 PM

Make that "long run" in the second line.

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 10:08 PM

Mr. Happy,

First of all let me say how sorry I am that you both are having to go thru this but with that said...

...if at all possible, you two take control of the divorce and don't let attorney's control it. Yes, you will need "an" attorney. Not two! This is very important. When you get two attorney's involved then the divorce is out of your collective hands.

Sit down and discuss stuff. Negotiate. Find common ground and, fir gosh sakes, WRITE IT DOWN!... Then give it to "an" attorney, who may make some suggestions based on some legal stuff, will be working for you, not vice versa...

Good luck and again, sorry for both of you...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 10:38 PM

So sorry Mr. Happy. Bobert is right - the most amiable divorces require qualified lawyers. Each of you should have a separate attorney representing your interests and acting as buffers. But as Joe Offer says - remember that you once loved each other and act accordingly. I wish you well.
Mary

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 11:01 PM

My husband and I did a better divorce than we did a marriage. Neither of us ever badmouthed the other to our daughter and I'm very pleased with that. We're still friendly enough and wish each other well.

A friend of mine said that when his wife informed him she wanted a divorce he was devastated. But witin a couple of years he found a much better match; they've been married for more 7 years now. He says, If she hadn't divorced me, I wouldn't have the life I have today.

He's a happy man.

Good luck. Just go one day at a time.

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 11:16 PM

Same as Ebbie said. It's hard to get through. Attorneys can be a pain. Someone recommended a woman to the ex who (I learned later from another attorney) has a reputation for being incredibly and irresponsibly slow. She nearly derailed us a couple of times, but we finally got through it.

The state dictates the outcome when there are minor children involved. If you can't agree on custody and visitation, the state's rules kick in and you have to follow them. Period. That's what they do in Texas, anyway.

An aside: we went into counselling over the course of a couple of months that ended up being "divorce counselling." We were both dealing with some depression, but that helped. When I later adjusted my benefits at work to take into account my new status, I tried to up my life insurance. The company wouldn't do it because I'd answered in the afirmative their questionaire query about depression, even though it was relatively fleeting. I would have had to pay the doctor to take the time to fill out their stupid quesitonaire. It was just too annoying to deal with, but that's probably what they wanted as the outcome anyway.

SRS

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 11:41 PM

I imagine you're going to get a lot of posts here, and first of all, I am sorry. It's never easy to end a marriage, but I do completely agree with what Joe Offer said in the beginning.

My own divorce happened after almost fifteen years of separation, since we were on the opposite sides of the world and just kept putting it off through all our other relationships When it finally happened, we met again mid-way on the planet, and found we had gotten over most of the residual pain and were left with a lot of the original fondness, which made the whole process a lot easier. Now we remain good friends, as I am with his partner and kids, and that has been such a blessing.

But back to you! Yes, do whatever you can to make it amiable. If you can have one unbiased lawyer it will save any wrangling between two, but if you need two to keep the distance, then do so, with the understanding that they are there to facilite the proceedings and not for their own agenda. This will make a huge difference to how you both will feel during the process.

If there are children, they have GOT to be your main focus, and that does apply to adult children as well. The whole idea of loyalties can be a dreadful can of worms best left unopened.

As Joe said, try to remember that you two once loved each other enough to marry, and call upon that now in any way you can. If you are feeling a lot of pain, this is the best time possible to consider some kind of therapy to get through it. Having someone to talk to (yeah, us mudcatters will do our best, but it really takes someone there on site with you) will be of immense importance.

The best of luck to you. May it go swiftly and may you come through it with your health and sanity and goodwill intact.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 11:59 PM

When my first wife of 26 years years, and I, decided it was time to split, we did a "do it yourself divorce." This is not for everyone. We succeeded very well because we had all the issues solved, bills paid, kids grown, and were still friends.

We also paid an attorney a nominal sum just to check the paperwork just to make sure that everything was in correct legal order. That proved to be money well spent.

Not every state in the U.S. allows "do it yourself" divorces. The main reason is that state laws are made by legeslaters, who are mostly attorneys, who don't make much money when "do it yourself divorces" are allowed.

ONe piece of personal advice ... be a good and serious friend to yourself right now! Some one has to be.

Best wishes. Bob

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:13 AM

I have lots of advice for you if you have children. If so, how old?

If no children - get a lawyer. It amazing how petty people get when divorcing and dividing the property.

My ex waited until I wasn't home and went into the cellar and took all my canning jars!

My friend's ex showed up two years later and wanted the chain saw!

Another friend's ex took all of her tools.

Be careful and set some timelines. Don't drag it out.

d

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: MBSLynne
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 02:52 AM

DON'T get involved in bitter, acrimonious slnging matches..either to each other or to other people. It serves no purpose and just hurts everyone more. Bite your tongue.

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 03:43 AM

Dont forget you loved her once and dont get into slinging matches.I have been going through a divorce and its now finalised,we are still very good friends and always will be.We went through the divorce without argueing and bickering,its the best way in the end.

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 04:52 AM

No matter what, you will always have somethings in common, celebrate them and not the differences.
The worst thing I found was mutual friends taking sides.

Giok

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Jeanie
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 04:53 AM

I'm so sorry to hear that this is happening to you. As well as endorsing all the good advice you're being given here from those of us who have been through divorce, one thing which helped me tremendously during the whole process was belonging to a Divorce Care group. This is a worldwide network based in and sponsored by churches - but don't be put off by that, if you aren't a "churchey" person. What Divorce Care offers is practical and emotional support in all the ups and downs that you go through, with others who are going through it too, and led by someone who has been divorced and is much further down the track, as it were. There are videos, discussions and also social events as well, and there are a lot of books available for you to buy or borrow on all topics: practical, financial, emotional.

Six years on, I still refer from time to time to the workbook I used there. What I found there was a wise and kindly voice, at a time when I needed that the most. I'll list the topics here, for you or anyone else who may be interested, to give you a feel of it: "What's happening to me ?"; "The Road to healing: Finding Help"; "Facing Your Anger"; "Facing Your Depression"; "Facing Your Loneliness"; "New Relationships"; "Financial Survival"; "Kids' Care"; "Forgiveness"; "Reconciliation"; "Moving On".

All good wishes,
- jeanie

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:10 AM

all i can say is good luck, mr h, good luck.

best wishes

freda

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Morticia
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:49 AM

Actually, you DON'T have to have lawyers. IF you wait for two years, in separate residences, you can then be judged to have had an 'irretrievable breakdown' of marriage. You fill in some forms, pay 100 quid and you're done. This only works if you are both in agreement as to who has what,including children , any disputes will usually have to be settled by a court.

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: My guru always said
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 06:10 AM

So sorry Mr Happy, am echoing what has been said about keeping the friendship if you can.

Next July will be my 2 year separation mark (as Morticia said, this is a divorce option in the UK). It's been hard for both of us & I still love my husband, but I needed to move on to a new life. We have had hugs & tears but once the decision has been made it's usually better to make a clean break.

Keeping the friendship will help you both get through this and not take away your dignity and self-confidence. Mud sticks and sometimes doesn't wash off....

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 01:13 PM

Morticia is right. Separate for two years and forget the lawyer.

d

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 01:23 PM

Have been separated for over a year now Mr H and can promise you that there is life after marriage. Always difficult at the start of the end but like having an operation in hospital....you know you are wounded but it is all about getting better when you leave the operating table.
I feel for you friend and am available for you on PM if you want to chat.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Susan-Marie
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 01:53 PM

Been there, done that......

BEFORE you find a lawyer, find a good MEDIATOR. Mediators are interested in finding ways to get to the bottom of diputes and helping YOU and your spouse find a fair solution. They can save you a lot on lawyers fees (although they're not cheap themselevs) but the best thing they do is save you a lot of time and energy you'd probably spend fighting. If all goes well, the mediators help you write the division of property, custody, etc., and the lawyers just put it in legalese.

The other advice is to not lose sight of your own interests. Figure out what's most important to you. You may think you want to do anything to just get it over with, but decisions like "I don't care, just take the house" or "Fine, you can have the kids, I'll just visit on weekends" can't be un-done. If you do have kids don't be afraid to ask for 50/50 custody. That's what I have for my 2 young children, and they have a much closer relationship with their dad than my friends' kids who only see their dads every other weekend.

Good luck.

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 02:18 PM

Susan-Marie,

50/50 works if you live nearby. It doesn't work so well if a parent must re-locate to find work.

Open custody worked well for us. If he wanted to see the kids, he called to make the arrangements. If I wanted him to take the kids because of...., I called him. Of course, as the kids got older, they had some say in all of this.

Just remember that life changes. What might work for you now, may not work well five years from now. Keep the communication open if there are children involved.

d

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 03:03 PM

As a lawyer who has been defending my 50:50 custody for 4 years now, at a cost in excess of $50,000, I suppose I should chime in. Yes, on the mediation advice, if you can't reach all agreements by yourselves.   I know a couple who fought for years over money and property, and then were glad for the mediator.

I can't imagine representing both parties as a lawyer, but I know it is common. I guess they know what they are doing. Unless it is real estate or a substantial investment, and you are anything remotely like me: Give it all away. In my circumstance, I had to let her think she was stealing it all by force or trick (I let her move out first), because that gave her a sense of empowerment. But the thought of all that crap from our garage and closets filling up the new guy's garage and closets just warms my heart. Luckily, we have more photos and videotape of the kids than we can watch for the rest of our lives, even if we start now, but if you don't, buy a scanner and be cooperative.

I hope (more than you can guess) that you can do without lawyers. If not, recognize that there are property lawyers and custody lawyers, though none of them will admit it. You need recommendations from trusted, experienced sources to get the right one. Yes, go for the higher hourly rate.

Also agree on the "can't be undone" comment above by Susan-Marie above. Try and foresee as far ahead as possible. Don't let go of kid time until its all straightened out. Live near their other house. You can control that.

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 03:29 PM

I wanted to move out of Texas as soon as possible. I had a job and house lined up, but after his attorney messed up those plans I couldn't bring myself to redo all of the work to leave, because I knew that as good as living in the Northwest would be for the kids, they would lose much more by not seeing their father as often as they wanted. So I live here, three miles distant from the old house, and bide my time. The kids see their father every day. They are doing very well, and we communicate all of the time, so it isn't like they can pull anything over on us (more than the usual stuff kids pull over on their parents anyway. . .).

You have to put your kids first. Bottom line.

SRS

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 03:48 PM

Ultimate mega-kudos to you SRS.

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 04:14 PM

I agree with putting your kids first, but many men get the total short end of the stick on this.

the courts are totally unfair to fathers and are extremely biased towards women. That however is changing and single family households with fathers is one of the largest growing demographics in the country.

Kids need stability and 50/50 custody situations do not work unless there is great, if not perfect cooperation and the parents live very close by. they need the stability of one good home and family life.

If you have kids, ask yourself this: Do you want to be a full time or part time parent? Have you really been the one who has made the difference in their lives and have the desire to continue to do so?

If you answer yes for the RIGHT reasons, not because of vegence or spite, I would suggest that you find a good lawyer and pursue at least being the residential parent in a joint custody situation. It's going to cost you, but you have to ask yourself if there is a price tag you can put on your children.

In a three year court battle, in which I deeply believed in what I was doing was right for my kids, I won sole custody of my two sons. My ex-wife has liberal visitation and i do my best to keep her informed and be a good business partner regarding the children. It is important that they do have a meaningful relationship with their mother.

I occasionally have lectured fathers interested in knowing their rights and have advised many one on one on how to not let the courts automatically make you a man who has to "visit" his children.

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 04:32 PM

>>Have you really been the one who has made the difference in their lives and have the desire to continue to do so?<<<

When you read that question carefully, Martin, it would be a rare person who could righfully claim to be the ONE who makes the difference. As aggressive as my ex is toward me, we both make a difference. However, as she is still trending towards heightened noncooperation and aggressiveness, and as it is apparently impacting academic performance, I will accept the legal (decisionamking) custody when the court appointed shrink finally gets around to it recommending it.

I'll bet Mr. Happy doesn't have these complicated custody issues, or he would have mentioned it.

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 04:54 PM

Good luck to you, guest heric.

Mr. Happy might not beaware of his options.

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:18 PM

"any advice?"

A while back I asked my wife what she wanted for her birthday and her answer was "I want a divorce."

Yeah. Right.
Like I was planning on spending THAT kind of money.

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:29 PM

Make her pay for it.

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: GUEST,jacqui.c
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 06:45 PM

Sorry to hear this Mr Happy.

I'd agree with the two year separation - that's the route I went last time. We managed to divide up the marital property between us without rancour and just got a solicitor to draw up a legal document to that effect. It cost very little and kept the stress to the minimum.

Are you coping with the emotional aspects right now? As well as the practical problems this can be a rough time and I hope you have friends that you can talk to who'll be there for you. I've seen three friends through split ups in the past three years and know that it can be invaluable just to listen when someone needs to talk.

All the best, anyway. You know that the Mudcat 'family' is here.

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 07:24 PM

Put it all in perspective. It's divorce, not death. The outcome you should want (I hope) is that everyone eventually ends up in a comfortable place and the kids have good relationships with both of you.

How to knock out the nonsensical bickering or territorial grabs? Look at the issues, but then set them aside once the compromises have been made. Even though we were mature and generally fair about the division, there were still some hard feelings and some nit-picking as a result.

What allowed us to set it aside? I got cancer. Boy, that sure knocks the wind from your sails and lets you take a clear look at what's REALLY important. A couple of surgeries later I was fine, and I don't suggest this form of attitude adjustment if you can avoid it. But you might want to take this idea and run with it. In a manner of speaking, it's a mild form of dismemberment, it isn't death.

SRS

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 09:48 PM

JustaPicker, that's funny. (At least, I hope it was meant to be funny!)

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:11 PM

If you are male, get yourself a female lawyer. It will take away the "typical male attitude" rant from the other side.

Also, even though both parties swear it will be amicable, forgeddaboudit. This will turn into an adverserial proceeding at lightspeed.

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:28 PM

Yes, your most Ebbie-ness. :-)

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 12:32 AM

Ebbie are you sure you weren't talking about me? That's exactly my story. There is life after divorce! During divorce, on the other hand, .....

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:24 AM

Mr Happy

If you are negotiating your divot=rce by speaking directly you are probably having a good divorce. If you are speaking through solicitors get ready for expense. If you both intend continuing to be keen folkies you gotta negotiate directly - for your own peace of mind and ours in a small way.

Going public like this is a good step - I tried being quiet when Miss Red faded and I got a lot of questions I had to fudge answers for.

Subject: RE: Non Music:DIVORCE: Any advice?
From: bbc
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 08:39 AM

Need more info, Mr. Happy, to give you good advice. How long have you been together, are children involved, what are the divorce laws in your area, who wants the divorce? I learned the hard way that, although it takes 2 to make a marriage, it only takes 1 to break it. I also learned that the courts in New York state will allow seemingly endless litigation & that if you don't respond to court papers, you lose. Because of that, the divorce that I didn't want lasted approximately 8 years (almost as long as the marriage) & cost me approximately $40,000. This was primarily because of issues w/ our children.

If you both want the divorce, keep it as simple & short as possible & try to part as friends. If children are involved, try to put your feelings aside & consider what's best for the kids, regardless of what you may want. Remember, the kids didn't ask to be involved in this.

At this point in my life, approximately 16 years after my divorce, I find it hard to see why I married my former husband. We've gone very different ways in our lives & I'm glad for the person I've become. I have maintained a civil working relationship w/ my ex & have allowed supported him seeing & communicating w/ our kids. Regardless of my feelings toward him, I have never lost sight of the fact that they are his kids, too. Because of this, I think we are all pretty emotionally healthy, even though the "divorce years" were dreadful. Both of our sons have a positive relationship w/ both parents & both are open to the idea of marrying in the future. Although I expected to be marrying for life & was the 1st divorce in my family, I acknowledge that staying in a negative relationship is worse than divorcing. On the other hand, I think folks should make sure that divorce is really necessary & not just take it as an easy way out. Divorce is usually painful & expensive.

Mr. Happy, I wish you & your spouse well. Feel free to PM me, if you'd like to talk.

best to both,

bbc (Barbara)