BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?

Subject: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 04:53 PM

The political correctness that is permeating our culture today, destroying traditions, attacking instituitions, attacking religion, etc. all in the so-called name of diversity and sensitivity, who is responsible for this?

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 04:57 PM

The Political Correctness fairy.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 05:12 PM

I am not politically correct. Rather, I am seldom politically correct. Some institutions deserve to be attacked because they serve only some people, and when they descend their rationale on the 'great unwashed', the great unwashed--of which I am a member, don't always like it or want it.

People have a right to their religions, whatever they are. And their beliefs. But when it is "in yer face', the right has been abused, IMO. That's where the line gets crossed to my way of thinking.

The depth of misunedrstanding has entered the language, also. "Mrs Jones is our chairperson." NO, dammit, Mrs Jones is our chairwoman. The term 'chairperson' should be reserved for occasions on which we don't know whether the chairperson is a man or a woman. That is just plain stoopid, IMO.

But, in answer to your question, Martin, I have NO idea.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 05:20 PM

Brucie, the chairperson example was a good one.

I think political correctness is quite blatently, an agenda of the radical left.

I think it's doomed to backfire.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 05:25 PM

Political Correctness... an oxymoron.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 05:26 PM

One who creates all of this political correctness: Just a moron.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 05:29 PM

Political correctness when applied sensitively is a good thing and can only mean progress. Tolerance and acceptance being the end goal.

When it is extreme to the point of shooting itself in the foot, it becomes as bad as racism, sexism and homophobia. People who spout forth with extreme opinions are very often eventually ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 05:31 PM

One especially crazy example:

People of African ancestry living in the Caribbean Islands, and their culture, are commonly and acceptably known as "Afro-Caribbean." Another perfectly acceptable term, often used when discussing jazz, is "Afro-Cuban."

However:

People of African ancestry living in the United States, and their culture, apparently must now be called "African-American." The until-recently-OK term "Afro-American" has suddenly become politically incorrect. Not long ago, I witnessed one Mudcatter scolding another about this: "An "Afro" is a hairstyle!!"

I think it's unfair to blame all political leftists/progressives for this petty, stupid PC "movement." I blame an even smaller subculture within that group, the ivory-tower academic left.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 05:39 PM

I blame the French.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 05:48 PM

the French are a whole other story.

Poppa-Gator you are kind of right about those ivory tower academic lefts. But aren't they those great thinkers with the patches on the elbows of their tweed sport jackets spouting all of this crap from all of those so-called great universities like Harvard , Yale, etc.?

Aren't they the ones who are really out of touch with mainstream America?

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 05:58 PM

Mr Nobody

(The Family Circus)

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 06:03 PM

They're paid to leave mainstream America outside and think, instead, Martin. I admit that those who come up with phrases like "chronologically gifted" as a replacement for "old" and "differentl;y abled" are enough to make one differently-locate his or her dinner (or other meal of your choice).

If you don't believe our civilization, such as it is, can be improved, then any effort to go forward will look wrong. At least they are trying to think beyond the current patterns a little. Wish they could be smarter about it, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 06:07 PM

I would disagree with that remark, Martin. Harvard, Yale, etc., have their share of leftish thinkers. But they also have their share of rightist thinkers, too. I will dig for examples if necessary.

The social mechanism for indoctrinating 'political correctness' is not really universities; it is public school. True, the teachers are university trained, but it is the government of the day that establishes curriculum--what willbe taught, and by implication, what will NOT be taught, some of which I have had to undo with my own children. However, your statement that some academics are 'out of touch' with people like us is true, IMO. Mainstream America (Canada, OZ, Britain, etc) is what we think of as a common denominator. Butyou know yourself that as people, folks like us think that we are mainstream, and the likelihood is that we ain't.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 06:12 PM

It's the unnecessary hurting of another that's wrong. If such is done through ignorance the person can be corrected; if it's done deliberately they can be punched in the nose, ignored, or verbally chopped off at the knees (whichever is most appropriate).

But I'm not going to change my use of such words as "Jewish", "short", "black", or "tone-deaf" because someone somewhere might possibly concieveably be somehow offended. As someone said, was Sammy Davis Jr. a Black Jewish-American or a Jewish African-American or an Afro-American following the tenets of Judaism -- and what difference does it make anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 06:20 PM

Nothing wrong with going forward.

There's also nothing wrong with not fixing something that's not broke.

brucie, you are right about the public schools.

However, if someone's true feelings are suppressed becuae of this idiocy, we will turn into robots. for example, letting all immigrants into this country is not a good thing. There are good immigrants who come here to make a better life and there are bad immigrants who come here to sponge off of this country and to cause disruption. (I can think of 19 of them that we all heard of on 9/11), but we are so afraid to hurt some poor loser's feelings that we look the other way.

How about calling a spade a spade?

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 06:24 PM

I think its extremely politically incorrect for Martin Gibson to pontificate on philosophical matters , given his track record in hounding us psueo-intellectuals for talking crap.

Martin should go back to his proper job as Mudcat stand-up comedian, and balloon pricker...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Megan L
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 06:32 PM

Blame the womans lib

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 06:34 PM

*Sigh* this is so passe...we moved onto ethically correct a long time ago...hard to find new materials for moronic threads, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 08:13 PM

Big Ron Atkinson was on UK TV tonight. He is a footballer turned manager turned commentator who recently lost his job(s) for making a racist remark on air.

He referred to a famous black French footballer as 'one 'F.....G lazy nigger'.

He made the point that he may still be in a job, had he used the word 'frog' instead of 'nigger'. however, he has apologised for all of this and although he admits to not being PC - he strongly denies being racist.

He is certainly a big-headed idiot but somewhat ironically was responsible for introducing in his team, what turned out to be the first of the many black footballers, into what was up to then, a largely a white professional game. Many of these players were on the programme and while not really understanding why he said what he did - they tended not to consider him as a racist.

It was a very thought-provoking programme. Just about the only angle that was not covered is if there was a danger that he would be seen by overt racists - as some kind of hero.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 08:32 PM

More details about the programme. I forgot that he also said 'thick' in the quote.

http://www.kickitout.org/index.php?id=9&StoryID=2677

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 09:03 PM

I've said it before... give me the honest bigot who speaks his mind so you know where he stands over the one who pretends to be something else and hides behind politically correct phrases and terms. I know plenty of assholes and most of them are fun to hang out with (in small doses).

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 09:06 PM

katlaughing, why is it so passe? Does it make you uncomfortable? Wouldn't you feel that bashing U.S. government day after day here is passe?

I think political correctness has gone way too far.

Megan L. is right in a way. Women's lib has done it's share of promoting political correctness and for sure has tried to demasculate men. Definately has tried to demasculate it's share of male children.

Is it possible to have intolerance for those who have way too much tolerance?

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 09:17 PM

It was one thing that I hoped the Republicans would do away with but they've ignored it for the last four years. Having to really think over what you are going to say or write for fear of possibly offending someone wastes a hell of a lot of time. And I've just offended the religeous right that believes hell is a cuss word!

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 09:19 PM

Ah, it's a term created to denegrate the sincere heartfelt feelings, precepts and aspirations of anyone not like the Fascists who use i. --- ie. about 50% of the American nation.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: annamill
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 09:52 PM

This reminds me of a wonderful incident on the Dick Cavet show way back when there was no PC, yet. Dick sort of provided it himself, when, he was suppose to have a show with none other than, Eldrege Cleaver(sp) and Lestor Maddox. Cleaver(sp) was, I believe, head of the Black Panthers, or some such Black Militant group, and Maddox was Govenor of Georgia (or maybe, Alabama). After Maddox left, not wanting to be on the same planet as Cleaver(sp), Dick started an interview with only Cleaver.

I don't remember the whole interview, or what lead up to the topic. Cleaver was mentioning that he didn't mind be called a "Spade Cat", as a matter of fact, he was proud of it.

Dick, looked at him for a moment, and said "I don't see anything wrong with the term. The lady who lives above me has a "spayed cat" and it doesn't bother me at all".

The audience wailed! Even Cleaver laughed, and that line has gone down in history!

PS: I may not be perfectly accurate in the telling of this story. I saw it happen, but my memory isn't exact. I just remember laughing myself silly and falling madly in love with Dick Cavet.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Auggie
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 10:00 PM

How is it that no one here has yet indicted the Enforcement Arm of the Bureau of Political Correctness, i.e. lawyers (would it be politically correct to rename them ethically disabling legally enabling productivity tabling profit taking pontificators ?)

As an unapologetic, unadulterated white male anglosaxon protestant I am often distressed at much of what is now deemed politically incorrect. But, as the father of two daughters, the God father of two, half African-American neices and an uncle to three half Native-Americans, I am distressed more so by those who would insult, denigrate, discriminate against or limit the opportunities of these people whom I hold dear. And often it seems language is a weapon in the arsenal of those would do just that.

It seems as well however, as with so many things in 20th and 21st century America, we have taken what was an initially good idea and carried it to the point of absurdity untill eventually the backlash begins to eclipse the original gains. We never know when to quit.
I,however, sometimes do know.

Thank you Madame Chairwoman, I will now get off my soapbox, be seated and shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 10:16 PM

Part of the movement towards excessive PC is that a 'few' zealots have sued school systems, newspapers, businesses...etc..over some imagined insult or phrase, and since the USA is such a litigious society, there are lawyers who specialize in winning large settlements for vague 'offenses'. Therefore, institutions who have been hit with suits are erring on the side of caution, and the silliness increases.

I connect it to the well-known CYAWP syndrome (Cover Your Ass with Paper)...and haven't most of us seen the parody 5 paragraph disclaimer, where responsibility for EVERYTHING is passed off?

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: MaineDog
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 10:18 PM

I think it was started by affirmative action students, who, having been admitted into colleges where they couldn't cope, tried to devise a means by which to avoid difficult (i.e. traditional academic) subjects, hence, anything difficult, or old, or not "diverse" is labelled politically incorrect, and can be avoided.
MD

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 10:29 PM

I am the uncle of four Indian/WASP boys--men now--who have experienced just that, Auggie. Words can hurt, and words can cause discrimination with their connotation.

I applied for a teaching job in a Band-controlled school in central-north Alberta many years back. During the interview, I was asked if I would be willing to teach Native culture. My eyebrows rose and I guess my face--which ain't all that much to look at, kinda like a hundred miles of bad road--showed my surprise. I responded to the question by saying, "I don't know why you'd want a white guy who grew up in Montreal and NYC to teach YOU about Native culture. If you need that from me, you have more problems than I would know what to do about." They hired ma and I taught there for three years. What's that gotta do with the price of eggs?

When I got to the Reserve and started moving into the trailer which was to be my home for three years, some people came over to give me a hand. I asked if they preferred to be addressed as first nations people, aboriginal people or native North American people. One of the fellows who was to become a good friend said, "We call ourselves Indians." Today, they are Indians to me. (I am one to them, also. An offer of friendship of which I am very proud.)

Political correctness is a good mechanism for folks who may be meeting another culture, race or group for the first time to learn the ropes instead of hang from one. But being polite works anywhere, because we all forgive 'mistakes' people make due to unfamiliarity. We seldom forget bad manners.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 10:40 PM

"They hired ma and I taught there for three years." BAD typo there.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 11:35 PM

You wouldn't take the job unless they hired your Ma, Bruce? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 11:43 PM

I knew it would be you. I KNEW IT. I K N E W I T. I shoulda bet. Dang. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 11:49 PM

Just funnin', B. I hit my fair share of typos all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 11:51 PM

My take on the question is that common courtesy is the grease that keeps the wheels of civilization turning. If you know a word is offensive to some group, why use it? Being a member of a group includes an implied obligation to make that group function well. Sure, some people push too hard. It's called finding out where the boundaries are.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 12:10 AM

I know you were funnin', Cluin. So was I. However, the second I read the 'ma' there, in my head a little voice said, "Brucei, you just stepped on yer crank, because if Cluin sees this he's gonna say something neat." Man, ya did. Thanks for makin' my day. Now, what can I do about the voices?

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 01:11 AM

In educational institutions, regardless of level, political correctness carries something very close to the weight of law.

In society at large, calling a gay man a "faggot" may not be in good taste, but it's not illegal. But if a student calls a gay man a "faggot" he's often subject to extreme disciplinary action. He hasn't broken a law, he's broken a rule, but within the mini-society of a school, a rule is virtually indistinguishable from a law. Expulsion from a university is not a form of punishment that is usually taken lightly.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 01:29 AM

Calling someone a stupid sh#t would result in the same disciplinary action. The 'rule/law' is "be nice". I don't se that as political correctness unless we really broaden the 'definition'.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 01:31 AM

Incidentally, brucie, I believe the correct - not politically correct - term is just plain "Chair", even though we have got in the habit of sexifying it.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 01:38 AM

That works for me, Ebbie. Good eye.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 01:43 AM

It was sometime after World War II that people became aware of what was and wasn't politically correct.

Are you saying that we should only be politically correct regarding some people but not others?

You are the first to cry if someone steps on your little, _____ toes.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 02:19 AM

My take on the question is that common courtesy is the grease that keeps the wheels of civilization turning. If you know a word is offensive to some group, why use it? Being a member of a group includes an implied obligation to make that group function well. Sure, some people push too hard. It's called finding out where the boundaries are.

Is this being a member of groups within groups?

Poor old 'Big Ron' was taken to the US in this programme. He was a bit baffled - (perhaps understandably) - when he was told by some young black students - that they could freely use the same word that he was not allowed to use, and which his use of, had cause him so much grief.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 06:24 AM

Who's responsible for this blame culture?

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 06:28 AM

I remember being told in primary school that we couldn't call a blackboard a blackboard, in case it offended somone. Which left me feeling slightly confused...

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: s&r
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 07:07 AM

The hardest thing about the pc rules is that they aren't univerally applied. I know a woman who prefers to be called 'Madam Chairman'. My wife detests being called Ms. My boss prefers to be called Mary Jones (not her real name) but she kept her maiden name. I don't like 'they' used instead of he or she on grammatical grounds. Things like avoiding 'blackboard' are risible.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 07:24 AM

How could a descriptive term for an inanimate object possibly be considered offensive by anyone?

By the way, i'm a Miss. Ms evokes images of shoulder pads...and anyway, miss just sounds nicer...

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 07:30 AM

If Big Ron had not used the N word but instead had described this or any other player as a 'thick lazy' something-or-other - he would still be employed.

However, If he had described the player as a 'thick, lazy', BLACK something-or-other - he would not still be employed.

It seems that it is PC to call someone insulting words - as long as you don't prefix the insulting words with any reference to a colour. As if the adjectives like BLACK, YELLOW or RED, were the insult..........

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 08:24 AM

There is a move afoot in Canada to have the word "Settler" expunged from school books because "some people" MAY find it offensive. The world gone mad. I hate political correctness because it is largely rooted it ignorance and stereo-typing.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 08:30 AM

How could a descriptive term for an inanimate object possibly be considered offensive by anyone? (Blissfully Ignorant)

Hmm. In Germany, when I was very young, the tiniest of firecrackers those that you could safely hold in your hand when they did 'explode' after being lit (just a short 'puff' sound) were called (in translation) "Jews' farts". Now that was also only a descriptive term for an inanimate object...

I don't disagree with you regarding 'blackboard', I also consider that silly, but I disagree with the generalisation in your sentence.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: s&r
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 08:41 AM

Super film years ago called 'Blackboard Jungle' 'Chalkboard Jungle' doesn't have the same ring somehow..

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 08:45 AM

political correctness is dead (bring it back, I say).

the NEW speech coercion philosophy is much more dangerous. the "if you dont agree with me, you must be supprting terrorists" crap.

Now that is the sort of free speech coercion that makes people afraid to express themselves. Real Big Brother talk.

bring back political correctnes I say. at its worst, we can laugh. at its best, we can learn

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 08:52 AM

I reckon Ron Atkinson is racist, a few years ago he made similar comments on air, ie there was a black football player on the pitch, Ron said qoute="his mother is at home swinging from a tree".

Enoch Powell introduced black people to the Uk Health Service, doesn't mean he wasn't racist!

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 09:33 AM

Who's to blame?
The bigots who do discriminate against certain people and groups in ways that really matter, such as employment or education, and so really do make people feel discriminated against. In comparison, the occasional use of a phrase some find offensive to them is small cheese.
If the issue has been settled, then far fewer people will take offense at something. For instance, would anyone be offfended in a comedian threw in a few blonde jokes in a routine? A clear examaple of discrimination, but nobody would believe that there's an important diffrence there thats being pointed out.

Of course, these are only my opinions, and as the only minority I'm a memeber of is the English in Scotland, I thankfully don't have much real experince in the subject

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 09:34 AM

OK I admit it. It is me. I am responsible for all the Political Correctness.

BTW, Martin, I think kat was saying that the phrase 'Politcal correctness' was passe not the thing itself. The phrase has now been surplanted by ethical correctness. Mind you, that isn't right either. To be ethical or correct indicates something may be unethical or incorrect. Because we are not allowed winners and losers I think we should now rename it...

'Something that may be correct in any manner of interpretation but no better for being so than anything that may be contrary to that belief.'

There! Anything wrong with that?

Whoops! Don't answer that - it implies that there may be a right and wrong...

Oh, buggrit.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 09:39 AM

Dave, the new phrase is ethically conscious, not ethically correct. For my taste it is dangerously close to ethnically conscious.

Wolfgang (who is all for EC, that is European currency)

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 09:51 AM

The Woodstock Generation, that's who!

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 09:58 AM

I have to agree with the previously mentioned situation wherein a word used by one culture is cool and acceptable but used by another culture is a derogatory word. It either is or isn't derogatory and should either be freely used or not used at all.

It isn't that I want to be ignorant and hurt others. Far from it. But in order to be truly politically/ethically correct I would have to know all of the possible racial, sexual, creedial, cultural (did I leave anything out that might be offended?)slurs. How was I to know that calling the upright notebook a "Flip-Chart" would offend anyone?

I guess we'd better get on the "liberal" media who keep talking about the armed forces having a "chink" in their armor. The possibilities for insult are endless.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 10:16 AM

As an addition to Wolfgangs point, the jews harp was always referred to as the "trump" when I was a boy in Scotland.

Is the name Jews harp politically correct?
Does it apply to the size of the instrument ?
Is it a corruption of mouth-jaws   harp?
Does it really matter?...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:41 AM

English a minority in Scotland?

Well in Argyll the "cowboys" are starting to outnumber the "Indians"

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:55 AM

as long as you don't prefix the insulting words with any reference to a colour. As if the adjectives like BLACK, YELLOW or RED, were the insult..........

Can't be that bad as long as two African republics (Niger, Nigeria) call themselves after the Latin word for black, namely 'niger'.

Also I don't see the 'Porta Nigra' (black door/arch) in Germany, a UNESCO world cultural heritage, being renamed any time soon.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Midchuck
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 12:07 PM

The first example of what later became known as political correctness that I can personally remember came from The Weavers.

They recorded a Leadbelly song, "Poor Howard's Dead and Gone," and they changed Leadbelly's:

Who's been here since I've been gone?
Big black nigger with a derby on!

to ...Great big man with a Derby on.

which avoided giving offense to anyone at the cost of the meter of that line. That was end of the '40s or beginning of the '50s - before the Weavers got McCarthyized out of the public eye for some years. (Has anyone noticed how this decade is seeming more and more like the '50s? Does this mean that the twenty-teens are going to be like the '60s? YeeHaww!)

So maybe it's all the Weavers' fault.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: s&r
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 12:15 PM

Could have been great big feller and maintained the scansion. I think it's hard to justify the use of nigger' today. I remember with some embarrassment learning a song in school music lessons that referred to 'big buck nigger...' perhaps it wasn't offensive then, but I certainly couldn't sing it now

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Nerd
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 01:11 PM

A lot of tunes like "Nigger Trader Boatman" are often given softened names nowadays. I don't think this is too bad a thing.

I think it's wrong to blame "Ivory tower academics" for PC usages. Remember, Ivory Tower Academics by definition rarely do anything that affects the real world. I think to the extent that there is an academic basis to this, it comes from professional schools, especially education and law. Education schools try to ensure that no 5 year old's feelings will ever be hurt. They have laudable motives, of course, but it's an unrealistic goal. Some Lawyers see hurt feelings as a potential cash cow, so they want laws prohibiting hurt feelings.

Linguists, folklorists, anthropologists and sociologists, the ivory-tower academics most likely to look at insulting speech, would rather study the word "nigger" than prohibit it, although considerate ones would be careful not to use it inappropriately. When the whole "Ebonics" flap occurred, it occurred because educators (school board folks--public policy movers) were making claims that no linguist (ivory tower academic) would ever make, namely that what used to be called Black English Vernacular and is now called African-American Vernacular English is a member of the Niger-Congo language family, not a dialect of English! I remember the linguistics lists and discussion groups were buzzing, mainly with the sound of a nation of scholars collectively scatching their heads and going "Huh?" Academic linguists were decidedly NOT a major part of that PC misstep, and I suspect the same is true of most others.

College communities often jump on PC bandwagons. This is due more to administrators and the fear of getting sued than to academics as an occupational group.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 01:21 PM

People who got plenty to do, and are happy and fully employed, haven't got time to get upset about what people label them. Too many unemployable people with too much time on their hands, that's what feeds the PC industry.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 03:27 PM

They are not unemployed.

they are generally the education community.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 03:45 PM

Once I posted a comment about a socialist accademic having a left wing agenda. I was promptly flamed here by soembody claiming that my comments were an attack on the fact that the accademic in question was femail. I blame Mudcat!

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness:Who's Responsible?
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 03:59 PM

Mudcat just might be a contributing factor.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 05:56 PM

On the 12th day of the Euro-centrically imposed midwinter festival,
my Significant Other in a consenting adult relationship gave to me:
TWELVE males reclaiming their inner warrior through ritual drumming

ELEVEN pipers piping (plus the 18-member pit orchestra made up
of members in good standing of the Musicians Equity Union as called
for in their union contract, even though they will not be asked to play a
note)

TEN melanin deprived testosterone-poisoned scions of the
patriarchal ruling class system leaping

NINE persons engaged in rhythmic self-expression

EIGHT economically disadvantaged female persons stealing milk-
products from enslaved Bovine-Americans

SEVEN endangered swans swimming on federally protected wetlands

SIX enslaved Fowl-Americans producing pre-packaged non-human
animal products

FIVE golden symbols of culturally sanctioned enforced domestic
incarceration
(NOTE: after members of the Animal Liberation Front threatened to
throw red paint at my computer, the calling birds, French hens, Turtle
Doves and partridge have been reintroduced to their native habitat.
To avoid further Animal-American enslavement, the remaining gift
package has been revised.)

FOUR hours of recorded whale songs

THREE deconstructionist poets

TWO Sierra Club calendars printed on recycled processed tree carcasses and...

ONE Spotted Owl activist chained to an old-growth pear tree.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 06:23 PM

:0))

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 06:37 PM

*chuckle*

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:16 PM

When someone from the dominant, ruling class decides to afix a label to a group of people, it is resented. Since when does one group get to name another group?

When all non-whites begin referring to so-called white people as "whitey" perhaps it will be understood.

I think Christopher Columbus was politically incorrect when he named North American Natives as Indians instead of referring to them by their tribal names. Just plain ignorant.

Language changes and grows with time. I don't want to be called Mrs. because I gave that up when I divorced. I don't want to be called Miss because I gave that up when I married. Ms suits me because I am a Mrs. without the mister.

We all say things which unintentionally hurt the feelings of others but we are learning to be more sensitive. Hopefully we have come a long way from stick and stones .....but names will never hurt me. Names do hurt. Ask anyone who has been on a playground for 5 minutes.

Its pretty hard to stop bullying without stopping the name calling.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:19 PM

I agree with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:21 PM

Go smoke a Virginia Slim or something, dianavan.

Sheesh. Thanks for listening to the feminist soap box hour.

Now please go back to watching Oprah.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:31 PM

Do you know the difference between an old tire laying in the ditch and a bag filled with 729 used condoms?

























One's a Goodyear; the other's a great year.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: number 6
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:32 PM

What's the diff Brucie

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: number 6
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:40 PM

Ok... I see it Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:42 PM

Yes. I wonder who's Kissinger now?

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:44 PM

I just posted the above on the wrong thread. What a bloody idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 12:19 AM

I dunno'.......Seems to wwork out on this thread okay. Then again, this thread has been going nowhere at a blinding pace for quite awhile now.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 06:05 AM

When all non-whites begin referring to so-called white people as "whitey" perhaps it will be understood.

Not sure that one can agree with both the above and the following.

We all say things which unintentionally hurt the feelings of others but we are learning to be more sensitive. Hopefully we have come a long way from stick and stones .....but names will never hurt me. Names do hurt. Ask anyone who has been on a playground for 5 minutes.

I think we all understand why names can hurt - that is exactly why we intentionally call people those names - or why we mostly choose not to. As to unintentionally using words that may hurt someone else - perhaps not only do we have to be more sensitive but other sections of the community may possibly now need to be less sensitive. I really suspect that many are and are too busy struggling with the all-too-real manifestations of racism/sexism etc - to worry about was is or isn't being PC.

Having silly arguments about such things as whether BLACK coffee is acceptable and making perfectly reasonable people - who are doing their very best to keep up with the latest thinking and latest use of terms - and not upset anyone - feel that they are racists/sexists etc - may possibly just result into tuning them into these things.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: s&r
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 06:45 AM

I was once called Honkey, which I believe means whitey

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 09:47 AM

Who is responsible:

The ACLU
Political handlers
Pollsters
Polliticians
The public (for voting for candidates that only speak in sound bites and castigating those who screw up when they say something honest)
Hollywood
Lawyers


Wishing you all a "happy holiday" and hope you enjoy the "winter seasonal music" that you hear on the radio.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 09:54 AM

Thanks, Larry K.

You nailed a lot of them. Why should I let a group like LarryK has listed run my life and influence me what I think?

I don't.

Do you? Good chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 10:10 AM

Heard from a teacher-friend recently that we can't have brainstorming sessions any more - it's now a 'Thought-Shower'. Apparently 'brainstorm' was offensive to people with epilepsy. Do any epilepsy sufferers out there in Mudcatland subscribe to that view? (NOTE - not trying to start WWIII, just wonder if it's a justifiable assertion).

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 10:48 AM

Stupider an stupider

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 10:51 AM

What's stupid, Guest?

Maybe you are one of the types LarryK listed and feel exposed.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 11:02 AM

Do any epilepsy sufferers out there in Mudcatland subscribe to that view? (NOTE - not trying to start WWIII, just wonder if it's a justifiable assertion).

My dog is a sufferer - I will ask him.

Professor Thought Shower - does not have quite the same ring to it...

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 11:17 AM

Shambles - might get more sense out of the dawg than we do from a lot of humans! LOL!
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 11:59 AM

What does your teacher friend think about those working as a 'fitter'?

Will they be referred to as a Mechanical Putter-Together Of Things?

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 12:03 PM

Biogist re-trains as a gas fitter.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3514615.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Swave N. Deboner
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 01:03 PM

One thing that is overlooked (or ignored) in discussions about political correctness is the original intent behind certain titles and labels that are now considered by some to be offensive, insensitive, or otherwise politically incorrect.

Take the names of some major league sports teams here in the U.S. for instance. Significant objection to the Atlanta Braves, the Washington Redskins, and the Cleveland Indians has led to law suits aiming to force these teams to change their names. Though "Redskins" could be construed as a derogatory racial term, it was actually adopted as the team name out of respect and admiration for the bravery, determination and fighting spirit of the Native American. Hence also the terms, "Braves" and "Indians."

The Washington Bullets (now the Wizards) had to change their team name because of the connection some people were making with the serious gun problem and high rate of shooting deaths in the District. That negative connotation was certainly not intended when the team took its original name.


Oh, to get back to simpler times! "I Miss Back When", as Tim
McGraw's new song puts it.

Swave

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 01:18 PM

It's Spaw. Spaw is responsible for all of it. He must be stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 03:46 PM

This morning I was been excommunicated from the Democratic party...website.


On the Democratic underground website I praised Bev Harris for the work she did on black box voting.
Little did I know that the party line has shifted against Bev and she is now personna non gratia. So I was banned from the website along with 3 years of pictures I posted there.

They did get new moderators this week so there is no way of knowing if they are Republican goons or not.

Political correctness is now changing on the hour so it is very difficult to imajine anyone being able to really keep up.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 04:49 PM

That is their loss, Donuel. I hope you are not too down about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Cluin
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 06:29 PM

It's all just making jobs easier for stand-up comedians.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 07:15 PM

So is the musical instrument I have been working with tonight actually
called a PERSONdolin ??

And exactly WHEN did Stan Freberg record 'Elderly Man River ' ?

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 01:58 AM

Interesting that those that market Guiness, actually concentrate in many capaigns - on the colour of their product. No one semms to have objected to this - or have they?

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 02:46 AM

It is black and white. A little harder to object to, one would think.

Remember their advertising slogan, though;

"Not everything in black and white makes sense"

How true on mudcat....

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 04:09 AM

Morning Leadfingers.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 04:10 AM

You missed this one!

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 04:10 AM

100!

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 08:49 AM

Posting three in a row, just to get the 100 spot is cheating. Or at least bad manners...

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 09:12 AM

But is it politically correct?

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Nerd
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 01:18 PM

By the way, as evidence that the ridiculous extremes of political correctness do not come from academia, the main software used at American Universities to put course material on the web is called "Blackboard." I've never heard anyone mention any possible offense that could come of this. It takes a primary school mentality to think that one up.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 01:20 PM

It wasn't the teacher...we could see she was trying not to laugh as she told us. I think it must have come from some faceless beurocracy somewhere...wait! That's who's to blame! THe faceless beurocracy!

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 09:00 PM

Blackboards are what we write on when we give notes in school. I call ALL of them blackboards: the green ones, the bluish ones and the whiteboards meant for those damned markers. If anyone complains they can take it up with the school division. They are blackboards to me. That's that.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 04 - 06:59 AM

You can't blame the faceless beaurocracy BI! That is offensive to people with no faces...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 17 Dec 04 - 07:33 AM

And highly offensive to owners of bureaux.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 17 Dec 04 - 01:59 PM

Chalkboard might be offensive to chalk, though. Did they ever consider that? Minerals have feelings to , you know! Effing fascists!
Although, i probably shouldn't say fascist, in case i offend a Nazi or something, God fobid. Oh, crap i said God...i think that's banned too...

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 06:57 PM

Poltical Correctness is a secular, religious form of Judaism-for-Gentiles. PC is designed to be a religion that replaces all other gentile religions. Judaism is for officialy recognized jews exclusively. In order for Jews to feel safe around gentiles, Jews believe that gentiles must be necessarily converted to a religion that implicitly protects and shields Jews residing in overwhelmingly gentile countries. The secular religion of choice that protects Jews is PC. the PC-religion's intellectual leadership is primarily bolsheviks, zionists, and GLBT's. The PC religion requires a strong central government to successfully implement. The origin of PC theories and dogma is the Babylonian Talmud.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 07:08 PM

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Spaw is responsible!

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 07:11 PM

Guest, where did you get the Maui Waui?

You're stoned or possibly the most anti-semitic poster on the forum.

Do you know anything about catma? Why is it always dogma?

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 11:36 PM

Guest, BTW you just can't blame political correctness as the religion of the Jews.

There are plenty of fags, wops, dagos, spics, chinks, bohunks, dikes, towelheads, camel jockeys, slopes, retards, and just about every other group imaginable who will differ with you on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 12:00 AM

Women, blacks, and hispanics are merely proletariat. The fedgov has certified these 3 groups as proletariat, or better euphemistically known as underprivileged. Proletariat are followers, not leaders of Bolshevism. The origin of PC theory is still Talmudism.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 12:03 AM

The truth is anti-semitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: HuwG
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 12:51 AM

BBC Radio 4 (in the UK) has just finished broadcasting a series entitled Clare in the Community. This in turn was inspired by a weekly cartoon strip in the traditionally liberal-leaning newspaper, the Guardian.

(The name was derived from one of the policies of Margaret Thatcher's government, "Care in the community", which was politician-speak for closing long-term mental care institutions and throwing the inmates out into the community, to be looked after intermittently by social workers, health visitors etc. As might be imagined, the impact of forcing people who could not cope in some way with society back into that society, was not exactly a good experience for either the former inmates or society in general. A deliberately politically-incorrect description of the policy, "closing all the loony bins", might offend but gives a better description of the situation than the oleaginous utterances of career politicians.)

The Guardian might be reviled by other sections of the UK press (usually read by those who don't care who runs the country, so long as there is a nice pair of breasts on page 3) for its leftish stance, but the cartoon strip poked a lot of fun at the Politically-Correct brigade. Clare (Barker) is portrayed as a worker for Social Services, wild-eyed and with a tendency to fling accusations of homophobia, racism, eurocentricity and so on at her colleagues, while herself continually putting her foot into her mouth.

(The radio series, with its half-hour programmes (and no adverts), didn't have quite the same bite as the three- or four-frame cartoons, but got the general tone about right.

A favourite cartoon of mine gives a flavour of the humour. Clare and her partner Brian are on holiday.

Clare: Uno vino rosso y una cerveza, por favor
Waiter: Certainly.
Brian: Clare, there's no need to speak Spanish here. The hotel staff all speak English
Clare: Well, you can be smug and insular if you like. I think it's important that when we're abroad we try to learn and respect the local language and culture.
Brian: But Clare ! We're in Turkey !

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 12:56 AM

GUEST:

The truth is anti-semantic. Get your facts straight, SVP.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Gurney
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 08:06 AM

I used to be a fan of the actress Honor Blackman. (Now she is called an actor.)
I also know a lady named Gay.
Both statements are true, but not descriptive, except perhaps the Honor.

I have begun to tell people who 'correct' my 'insensitiveness' where they can go, and if they persist, where they can put their opinion. Fortunately, I have the ability to use verbal abuse as a weapon, but there are a lot of people out there (wherever 'there' is) who haven't this facility, and have to resort to backing down or using violence, both courses being unpalatable to them, considering that most of the 'correctors' are nebulous, mouthy twats.
If someone objects to the manner in which I address them, fair enough, say so, but everyone else can keep their noses out.

Dianavan, of course Columbus was ignorant. He thought he was in India! Give him credit, though, he knew the world was round, and his voyages proved the quality of the man.

I thought I was the one who invented the term Madame Chairman. Just shows, great minds think alike.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 01:20 PM

Huw...Iv been listening to "Clair in the community" for some time and have found it very funny.

The character of "Clair" is all too common in the so called "care services".
We have had some problems in my family over the last few years and I have grown accustomed to dealing with these people.
They actually go on courses to learn how to speak in a manner which bamboozles their patients, and covers up the inadequacy of the UK psychiatric service.
After a while the gobbledy-gook becomes so infuriating that Iv been sometimes forced to throw the bastards out.

You're the first person iv come across whos heard this programme, other than myself.
I was beginning to think I lived in a parallel universe...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: GUEST,Kent Ovation
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 03:06 PM

Can you define for me, Martin, what a real semite IS??? Then I can decide whether or not to be anti-semitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 04:59 PM

Guest, Kunt Ovation you poor excuse for a guitar.

I don't have to define anything for you, really. You can either look it up in a dictionary or you can contact the Jewish Defense League, who I am sure will send a few of their finest over to personally make sure you know full well what it means.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: GUEST,Kent Ovation
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 05:28 PM

It's not Jews I'm talking about here, it's semites. What are semites? I already know about Jews, and according to my studies most of them are not semites. That is to say, those that came from eastern and central Europe are not semites. They are Azhkenazim (hope I spelled it right), and the Azhekenazim are not semites, they are descendants of people who once lived in southern Russia and were not descended from semites at all. Does that help any?

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 05:30 PM

Go tell that to the B'nai Brith and they will laugh in your face.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: GUEST,Kent Ovation
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 05:49 PM

Now you're getting to the crux of the problem, Martin! The question is, is a non-semite a semite if he thinks he's a semite? According to the B'nai Brith, the answer to that is YES! Very odd, isn't it? Now Sephardic Jews...they ARE semites. No question about that. However, they do not get much press or recognition, specially in the halls of power in Israel. I call that anti-semitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 08:58 PM

I call you a prick.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: GUEST,Kent Ovation
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 09:08 PM

I don't usually encourage people to get quite that personal on such short acquaintance, Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 02:06 AM

They actually go on courses to learn how to speak in a manner which bamboozles their patients, and covers up the inadequacy of the UK psychiatric service.

Theses courses are called Anti-Descriminatry Practice (but the title may have been change as not now being thought to be PC). It does not mean just to inform and encourge the worker not to descriminate - it means that the worker has a duty to ensure that others do not do this.

It is a well-intentioned but not a very sensible idea. As these workers have enough on their plates already - without being given the responsibilty to think that they have to change society single-handedly and overnight.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 01:05 PM

Shambles..The psychiatric services in our area (Argyll and Bute) are an absolute disgrace.
Closing our only Psy hospital, cutting funding ect while the number of psychiatric and drug related cases rises at an alarming rate.

I agree that the service is understaffed, but I believe that morale has fallen so low that patients come last.
Care is almost non-existant and if you want to speak to anyone they are either off sick or on "courses",or on holiday.

I could tell you some real horror stories about the "service " provided here..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: HuwG
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 01:22 PM

"Clare in the Community" is being re-broadcast on BBC Radio 4, tonight at 6:30 pm, and on similar slots on Wednesday evenings for the next six weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:05 PM

Who the hell is Clare?

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:13 PM

Care In the Community was the slogan which covered for the (then) Government to close down expensive institutions - sell-off the land for private development and throw the many sick and needy people who were dependant upon them - on to the streets. The use of the name 'Clare' (which sounds like care) was a pun and a very good title for this programme.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:19 PM

Oh.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 03:12 PM

"The following is the 2007 winning entry from an annual contest at Texas A&M University calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term.

This year's term: Political Correctness.

"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."


That definition rocks

G

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 08:25 PM

"sucks" might be a more fitting verb to use there.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 03:24 AM

Go Aggies, go!! Love it!

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Newport Boy
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 05:49 AM

I like the definition, Giok, but I think there's one word wrong. The mainstream media generally create the doctrine, rather than promote it. Particularly the Daily Mail, which dreams up a new fiction every quiet newsday.

Phil

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 06:48 AM

There is another definition -

'political correctness - avoidance of expressions or actions that can be perceived to exclude or marginalize or insult people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against.'
(WordNet)

The following is an extract from a thoughtful and thought provoking article by
'The Angry Black Woman'

'It seems to me (and I could be wrong) that people who rail against Politically Correct speech are those who do not want to have to be polite or civil to folks different from them. They see nothing wrong with using the language they grew up with or that they've come to use. They do not care if the language they use is hurtful to others because, after all, the most important thing is that they get to do what they want when they want. This is the prevailing attitude of people with privilege.

I'm not just talking about White Privilege, either. Any kind of privilege can result in this attitude. Because it's usually the underprivileged who are asking for new labels and new language. It is one of the great markers of privilege that those who have it can ignore the voices of those who don't. They can disparage and actively suppress efforts to level the playing field. They can spit PC at anyone who asks for a little civility.

Common decency. How often do we hear people asking where it went?

Politically Correct language is important. Whether we keep calling it PC or we start calling it Civil Speech or Inclusive Talk, we need to fight for it. Changing language, changing society, building a better future, that's hard work. But here we have an excellent tool for doing so that doesn't require marching, letter-writing, or even picking up a newspaper. Let's make sure people use it.'

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 07:33 AM

btw I do appreciate that Political Correctness may be considered 'Bad Bull' by students at The Bush School of Government and Public Service which
'enjoys plentiful privileges and opportunities that come from being associated with a living former president, George H. W. Bush.' and
'frequent visits from past and present public service professionals' including Dick Cheney,Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice and furthermore plans
'faculty collaboration that would expand the current Certificate in Homeland Security Program into a Master of Science in Homeland Security Program, coordinated by the Integrative Center for Homeland Security, recognized as a national leader in the emerging field of homeland security strategy and policy.'

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 09:16 AM

No decent person can argue with you Emma. The problem is where PC-ness becomes plain, simple stupidity - like the 'Chronologically Gifted' piece of bollocks quoted earlier - and thus loses credibility.

I'm entering old age. I am ABSOLUTELY NOT offended by being referred to as 'Old' - rather, I regard it as a compliment.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 09:55 AM

Well I agree with a lot of the sensible bits of PC, but what that definition is getting at, is the OTT attitude that pertains in certain quarters. As defined by Backwoodsman above.
It also seems to be mandatory amongst the more po faced adherents of PC, to completely lose the ability to laugh at themselves.
Lighten up.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 09:58 AM

I wouldn't argue with that either Backwoodsman.

I abhor that such extremes discredit the definition I quoted from WordNet and that

'the term "political correctness" is a straw man invented by conservatives in the 1990s in order to challenge progressive social change, especially with respect to issues of race, religion and gender.' and

'used by the political right in the United States to discredit the political left, including liberals and Democrats.'

(quoted from references inWikipedia
)

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 10:03 AM

....and might I add I'm not 'whimsically challenged' but I don't like to use language, perceived to be offensive, to laugh AT or mock other people.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Midchuck
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 10:19 AM

The problem is, Emma, that if every group has the power to define what they determine to be offensive to them, and force their definitions on society at large, communication suffers as confusion as to what is offensive, or isn't, gets worse.

The most obvious example is Negroes, I mean Colored People, I mean Blacks, I mean African-Americans, I mean People of Color, changing, every few years, what term they demand to be called by, just to laugh at the way they can make everyone jump on command...or American Indians wanting to be Native Americans. I'm a Native American, dammit - I was born here. But I'm only a tiny fraction "Native American" in the new sense.

(That last is probably a bad example, because "Indian" is admittedly absurd - the result of Columbus not having any idea where he was - but the new term is confusing as well. Why not the Canadian "First Nations?")

Peter

P.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 11:22 AM

The groups you describe Midchuck are not so much demanding to be called by any term but rather NOT to be called by terms which have either always been, or have become, insulting, derogatory or abusive to minority groups or underpriviledged persons.

As a woman there are specific terms applied to my gender that would certainly fit any or all of those descriptions above; like the 'n' word, I don't think I need to spell them out here.

I feel it is imperative for a society that has progressed away from slavery, demonizing the mentally ill etc to also make the move to using language which does not hurt, exclude or marginalize any individual or group.

I do not and have no wish to get involved in proselytizing but this refects my personal belief system.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 11:31 AM

I have a strong feeling that PC is allied to the notion that if you don't mention something, it somehow doesn't exist. Like not recognizing Iran. The term, as I recall, was coined by radical Leftist groups back in the 1940s, who thought that pussyfooting around words was pretty funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 11:52 AM

Kindness, consideration, and the avoidance of unnecessary offense are all good things. I think that no-one will disagree.

But the attempt to impose compulsory kindness, consideration, and avoidance of unnecessary offense as categorized or defined by a self-appointed arbiter(s) is wrong, and offensive.

I might quip that PC in that sense is very un-PC.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 12:40 PM

I found this definition/comment on a discussion group

'Blanket term that magically makes issues dealing with so called "left wing" or "liberal" politics go away without the hassle of actually intelligently arguing the point. This attitude is based upon the deliberate misconception that PC is unwritten law that everyone must obey which, thus, infringes on their "freedom of speech". Political correctness is, of course, only a suggested terminology for referring to your fellow man in a respectful manner. Personally, I don't believe in PC: the idea is sound but the execution is lacking.
Still, some people insist that it is "ultra-liberal mind control". Typically, those people are the main reason we have PC.'

I don't like the expression and it's blanket term abuse either and. like the article I linked to a couple of posts ago, prefer to think of it as 'Civil Speech or Inclusive Talk'

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 12:57 PM

Its probably been 6000 since someone first said "we don't discuss religion or politics since it usually ends in a stoning"


Today my only problem with political correctness are those who deploy it hypocriticaly, in other words someone who makes a political or religious claim and then challenges any response to their outrageous claim, to be politically incorrect.

They want their way both ways. What I say is not politically incorrect but whatever you say is.

Who's respondsible? Anyone who does not want to accept respondsibility for their ideas or ethos, or those who assume they are always right so any critique of their view is worthless.

It is your right to be politically correct just as it is your right to sit on a fence or stand in the middle of the road.
The problem with that stance is that you might fall or get run over.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 02:15 PM

Woody Allen. That's who.

He's responsible for political correctness. I don't know how he did it, I don't know when, and he will deny that he did it, but he did it! All of it. The rotten little schmuck!

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 02:22 PM

LOL LH!

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: John O'L
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 02:51 AM

Correctitude, please. There's no such word as "correctness".

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 04:14 AM

"....and might I add I'm not 'whimsically challenged' but I don't like to use language, perceived to be offensive, to laugh AT or mock other people"

Did I do that, Emma? Where?

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 05:19 AM

Isn't Political Correctness an Urban Myth perpetuated by the tabloids to justify their emotive (& invariably racist) reactionary sensationalism?

Certainly when one investigates the 'Political Correctness Gone Mad' stories a little deeper they invariably prove to be entirely bogus.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 06:11 AM

Not always, Sedayne, not when Political Correctness goes against politeness: Going into a bank one day, I held the door open for someone who I could sense was following behind me. Just out of politeness. My reward? To be called "sexist" by the cow that was following me.

It is these extremes that many people like me dislike, when common sense and politeness are ignored in favour of a (well-meaning, I am sure) rule. I have said it before: You cannot legislate for good behaviour, you can only teach it. And if you do try to legislate for it, you are just as likely to create an unwelcome reaction.

Emma, your extract from that article began "It seems to me (and I could be wrong) that people who rail against Politically Correct speech are those who do not want to have to be polite or civil to folks different from them". Well, she IS wrong, generalising like that. I was brought up to be polite, I believe in being polite, I always go out of my way to be polite, and let anyone who knows me be my witness. But I also believe that Political Correctness goes over the top and generally has the opposite effct from that intended. Based on this belief of mine alone, this self-styled "angry black woman" all-too-readily ascribes to me the worst of motives, and I have to say it, offends me. Though unlike her, I will cut her some slack and accept that she did so with the best possible intentions.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 09:20 AM

Of course the right wing never resorts to political correctness, "freedom fries" and "friendly fire" is just telling it like it is...

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 09:30 AM

Confusion - euphemism can and is sometimes used to aid political correctness, but is not a substitute for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 09:30 AM

I think Bill Mahre should be able to settle this.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 10:10 AM

I would suggest this Biercian definition:

Political Correctness- Avoidance of expressions or actions that can be perceived to exclude, marginalize or insult people while continuing to exclude, marginalize, and insult them.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 10:28 AM

hehehehe

exactly what I was trying to say but much funnier.

Subject: RE: BS: Political correctness: Who's Responsible?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 01:03 PM

Well, all I can say is that Woody Allen has a lot to answer for. It is my hope that he will one day be hauled up before an international tribunal and forced to apologize to the entire world for the blight that he has brought upon humanity. The man should be drawn and quartered! He should be hung by the feet from the upraised arm of the Statue of Liberty and be pelted with sour grapes by the infuriated mob gathered below! New York isn't big enough to hide him. No revenge would be too petty to take against him.