To Harmonize, or not Harmonize

Subject: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 04:35 PM

Rather than hi-jack the Best Harmony Singers thread, I thought I'd start this one. The question came up about when harmony singing isn't desireable (as much personal taste as anything.) I love harmony singing... doing it, and listening to it. But, there are plenty of instances when I don't want people to sing along. I'm sure everyone has experienced the irritation of people in the audience singing along on the whole song by a performer you really wanted to hear. Just because you know the words to a song doesn't mean that you are adding something by singing along.

Other instances where I wouldn't want anyone to sing along... I had a rare opportunity to hear one of my favorite traditional singers, Almeida Riddle. I swear I would have flattened someone if they started singing along with her!

And then, there are performers who are determinedly solo and don't even want the audience to sing along on choruses. That strikes me as odd.

Anyone want to add some generalities about when you think harmonies are not only "appropriate" (Man, I hate that word!) or even desireable, and when they are "innapropiate?" Or "uncalled for."
Hate that phrase, too.

No comments will be considered inappropriate in this thread...

Jerry

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 04:42 PM

Nothing inappropriate? Better watch out who you are saying that to, Jerry!

Harmonies are appropriate everywhere they can be pulled off cleanly and tastefully.

Harmonies are inappropriate when they are forced and off-key.

What is ever wrong with harmonizing a chorus with someone? Can someone be so self-centered that the song is just about "them?"

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 04:47 PM

Jerry, I'd suggest you carry a .357 along to concerts and shows. Shoot the first son of a bitch who sings at the wrong time and that should stop the rest. Conversely, perhaps you could then just sorta' threaten the ones who don't sing when they are supposed to.

Whatever works for you, I am behind you.....and hopefully out of the line of fire. Here's a case where I am willing to trust your judgement, especially since you have the Colt Python and I don't. Anything happens, you tell the judge I said it was alright!

Spaw

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 04:52 PM

I am not specifically talking about any audience participation. Just the performance/performers in general.

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 05:00 PM

Me too, Martin: I don't think that there's any right or wrong about groups singing harmony on any particular song, or groups encouraging the audience to sing on choruses (or not inviting them, and let them join in if they want.) The instances (Spaw) where I wouldn't like people singing along is when it's a solo performer (who also sang unaccompanied) like Almeda Riddle and the guy in front of me is singing along on the verses of a ballad, louder than the singer. Singing along needs to be done with some sensitivity so that you're not drowning out the performer.

Jerry

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: GUEST,David Ingerson
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 05:14 PM

It's extremely difficult to make up a tasteful harmony to most sean nos songs, expecially on the fly. Not only are many of them modal but most of the sean nos melodies beg to be let alone,to wend their magical way through an audience without others joining in. Unfortunately, there are harmonizing enthusiasts who will try anyway. Fortunately, the rhythms are elastic enough to confuse most singers-along and all but the most determined drop out quickly. In addition, no one else knows the words to most of my songs (at least here in the US of A)!

I sing many sean nos songs and wouldn't mind if someone wanted to work with me to create a harmony in practice sessions. But just to join in during a session, it would take an extremely sensitive and practiced harmonizer to make it work for me. It's possible, though, I suppose. (And, having sung in choirs most of my life, I enjoy a good harmony sing-along, too. I love singing harmonies to shanties and many newly-composed songs.)

Long live solos! And long live harmonies!

David

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 05:27 PM

Singing along isn't the same as harmonising - there's also singing in unison. Often enough neither is approprate.

Nor, of course is it possible to do either thing unless the people singing along are pretty sure know what the person singing is actually going to sing, both words and notes. And that isn't always that straightforward, especially in folk music, where songs exist in many variants, (and even these change over time); and to assume that subsequent verses are necessarily sung to the same tune as the first verse is unjustified, and is not in fact in keeping with much traditional singing.

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 05:57 PM

I often find that in church choirs, everybody wants to sing harmony, and nobody bothers with the melody. This is a real killer when you want the congregation to sing along, since they don't know who to follow. I think that in general, the harmony should be subordinate to the melody, and shouldn't drown out the melody.
Harmony singers don't always heed this. I have a stronger voice than just about anybody, so I sing melody and drown 'em out.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 06:17 PM

The worst is when you try to sing harmony, and those currently singing the melody join in with you instead of keeping on with "their" part. That's definitely a time to stop singing the harmony and just shut up (or take up singing the melody in unison).

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 06:21 PM

And there are different types of harmony, and some that might sound right with some types of songs sound terrible with others. For example a pentatonic song would need harmony notes that actually were in the pentatonic scale.

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 06:38 PM

If we're performing, we like to have people sing along on the melody or, if they can, an improvised harmony on some songs. On others, we'd rather they don't because it's too difficult and they'll screw it up or because our two-part harmony is so magnificent they should be quiet and listen.

When we're watching someone else perform, we hope they feel the same way and will indicate what they want the audience to do.

In a singaroud situation it depends on the group. For most groups, when it's our turn to sing we do the same as we do when we're performing. If it's the San Francisco Folk Music Club (as it will be the day after tomorrow), they have an uncanny ability to learn new choruses and to improvise magnificent harmonies so we welcome group participation. Some of our best harmony singing experiences have been when we are singing two-part harmony which we have carefully rehearsed and someone jumps in with an improvised third part that makes the three of us sound like angels from heaven.

So, the answer is sometimes yes, sometimes no and sometimes hell no.

We noticed that in singing sessions in Ireland, no one ever sings along in spite of the fact that many people in the room know the song well. In fact, if the singer forgets a line, several people will jump in and sing the line for him and then shut up.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 06:39 PM

Harmony singing is not appropriate if a group is singing in the style of Primitive or Old Regular Baptists. Strictly unison.

As for anything else, it should be the performer's choice. The performer should not be shy about expressing a preference.

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: Genie
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 11:32 PM

McGrath, you took the words out of my mouth.   Harmonizing and singing along aren't the same thing.

Unison singing can be fine, as long as the main singer isn't drowned out and everyone else is 'on the same page of the music', so to speak. But that's hard to come by unless it's a very well-known, standard version of a song.

To me, there's nothing better than well-blended multi-part harmonies, and I love it when people spontaneously harmonize with me.

(In fact, a much bigger frustration to me is singing a song I've written that NEEDS the harmony parts -- but I can't sing all parts simultaneously -- and no one in the crowd knows or can improvise the harmonies!)

Yet the problem with harmonies can be that each of several harmonies can work, individually, but NOT when combined. It really does take a true 'dance' between the main performer (leader) and the audience (back-up singers/ followers) for the harmonizers to know when to:
--sing harmony
--sing unison
--shut up.

One example of great frustration:
There is a wonderful, and very common, harmony to "Amazing Grace" that I love to sing. In the newer Unitarian-Universalist Hymnal "Singing The Living Tradition," the CHORDS given do not work with this marvelous harmony! Arrgghhhh!

Genie

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 12:58 AM

Yes, as a matter of fact, your two-part harmony IS magnificent, Bev & Jerry. I was pleased that you did some at my wedding reception. Hope I hear some more this week.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 01:23 AM

Aw shucks, Joe, you're making us blush. See you soon.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 02:41 AM

Friends of mine went to the Opera - them Opera singers don't like it when you join in, not a bit.

I don't suppose anybody had the misfortune to see the X-factor about a month ago. 4 young men with powerful operatic voices did the REM song Everybody hurts. Not a good thing at all.

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: BB
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 07:01 AM

I started singing harmony because the natural pitch of my voice means that I frequently can't sing along with someone else's melody - but I'm talking about choruses. I usually wouldn't dream of joining in with someone else's solo unless invited to do so, although there are some songs which are commonly held, when most people join in with the whole song. Usually, I consider it rude to sing the verses of someone else's solo, in exactly the same way as I consider it rude for someone to accompany an unaccompanied singer with an instrument unless invited to do so. I might occasionally hum a harmony very quietly in the background, but that would be a rare thing. It's the singer's song to deliver in their own way, and no way should anyone impose on that, and even the joining in on the choruses should be sensitive to the singer's way of doing it.

Barbara

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 07:44 AM

Well, it's very frustrating when a performer insists on singing some weird version of a tune, instead of joining me in the RIGHT tune! ;~)

~S~

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 08:33 AM

One thing I had to learn a long time ago, is if you want people to sing along with you, you can't be playful with your phrasing. If you you aren't completely consistent in the way you phrase each line, you mess everyone else up. Sometimes, that's o.k., though. There are many songs where I like to finish the last line by slowing it down and holding the last word. If people aren't really paying attention, everyone is singing a little differently until they all realize that I've slowed the last line down. But, when everyone finally gets into the the same space, I love to hear a full, rich chord to end the song.

Jerry

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: Dreaded Thumbpick
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 08:51 AM

I was told once that I can't sing a traditional British ballad in a traditional style to save myself. I "blue" too many notes. It's true. So mostly I don't try. I just sing a lot of Afro-American songs and American versions of the old songs.

I have quite a natural syncopated style of singing. It's not something I work on, it just is. And while I love to hear good harmony voices while I sing, I hate it when people try to force me into their phrasing or version of a song. But when someone(s) catch my rhythm and sings with me, whether in harmony or unison, I really feel connected to them.

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 09:37 AM

Dreaded:

In order for everyone to sing along, you have to smooth out the syncopation. That can kill all the fun in some songs. Sometimes that's worth the trade-off of having everyone join in, and sometimes it doesn't seem to be. I happen to love idiosyncratic, playful phrasing and bluesing up the melody as much as I do singing harmony.
It all ends up depending on the song, the occasion and the singer. I do find that there is more freedom to play with rhythm, syncopation and phrasing in black gospel because the harmony singers keep it straight while the lead singer can improvise and get as playful as they want. For me, that's the ultimate solution... great harmony singing and complete freedom for the lead singer. It doesn't get any better than that.

Jerry

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: KathWestra
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 09:41 AM

While I love singing (and listening to) good harmonies on choruses, I am profoundly irritated when someone who happens to know a song a performer is singing joins in on all the verses. Makes me wanna stuff a sock in their mouth. This was an eternal problem in the D.C. area, where there are more knowledgeable folkies per square mile than anywhere else I know of. We all knew almost all the songs a performer had up his/her sleeve, and there were always one or two or three people who habitually joined in indiscriminately on verses, choruses, whatever. They did not always sing in tune, and even if they did it was, at best, distracting. Even more irritating is when someone DOESN'T really know the song a performer is singing (like a traditional unaccompanied ballad or a song in a foreign language), and attempts to sing along, either in unison or in harmony. This happened at a gathering last spring, when someone insisted on singing along on a Balkan song being performed as a duet by a mother and son. It ruined the performance and really annoyed me and others in the audience. As "folkie" audiences, we have gotten so addicted to singing along (which is, of course, a wonderful experience), that we often seem to have forgotten how to listen. That's really too bad.

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: Dreaded Thumbpick
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 10:34 AM

Jerry,

What I find most galling are the instrument players who insist on accompanying a song that I do a capella. That will drive me right up the wall.

Wally

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 10:43 AM

Wally: Gotcha!

Uninvited instrumental accompaniment is really infuriating. Echhhhh!
My gospel quartet often sings at Anniversary concerts of other groups, and there is often a core of two or three musicians who want to play along with every group. Half the time, they don't know the song, so they spend the whole song missing chord changes and rhythms. And then, they consider every song an opportunity for doing show-offey riffs on their instrument that distract from the song. I've heard musicians accompany an a capella group without invitation, playing confidently in a DIFFERENT KEY than the singers!!!

When we do a song that is unaccompanied, I introduce it by saying,
This is a song we like to do unaccompanied, looking over at the keyboard player and other guitarists (and in black churches, the omnipresent 14 year old drummer.) It almost always work (except the drummer seems to find it impossible not to start a rhythm going, despite my request.)

But, that's another thread.

Jerry

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: Dreaded Thumbpick
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 11:07 AM

I was just thinking (a rare enough thing) that we just consider notes to be harmonic. One of the things that I love when I do (mostly) black music, is the syncopations that other good singers will overlay. There are certain songs that have that stuff built in like "Run, Come See Jerusalem" and "Daniel Prayed" but the spontaneous stops and interjections make for a terrifically powerful sound.

Would one consider these harmonies? Or is there another name for that?

W

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: GUEST,Harmoni
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 08:04 PM

I love harmony, I love to harmonize. And I don't have a problem with someone in the audience harmonizing along, as long as it's ON KEY:)

But I find it really difficult to stifle myself whenever I'm at a concert; it's almost instinctual. I can hear the "holes" in the harmonies and I automatically find that missing harmony and hum along. However, I've learned to figuratively "stuff a sock" in my mouth because although I may be obsessed with harmonies, others may not be. Doesn't quite stop me from humming that missing harmony under my breath on the final note, tho'.

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 08:37 PM

It may be a case of stating "The Bleeding Obvious" but surely a harmony which is off-key is not a harmony!

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: Cluin
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 08:51 PM

Harmonize when it's tasteful to do so. I love to harmonize behind a lead singer too, but it doesn't always work on everything. Sometimes you have to know when to back off and when to come in, all with a mind to benefitting the whole arrangement. That's the fun part too.

I know a group that do four-part harmony on EVERY song, all the way through... on, I guess, the theory that if a bit is good then more is better. The four-part harmony everything to death and your ear quickly gets tired of it. Kinda like Barbershop, which makes me want to gnaw off a limb to get away after about half a dozen songs.

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 08:24 AM

Short RANT about harmony. Just an expression of personal preferences.

In my experience it is not unusual for people who sing lead to express reservations about their singing. They are not always sincere, but they seem to be aware that the quality of their singing is an important issue.

I have NEVER heard a harmony singer express reservations. To a person they apparently think that their harmony singing is great.

Unfortunately, I've listened to a lot of bad harmony singing over the years and I wish harmony singers were a bit more self-conscious.

An all too common attitude was once summed up by a musical acquaintance. "I like singing harmony," she allowed, "because I don't have to know the tune."

I also wish that harmony singers were aware of harmonic aesthetic issues. To my ears some songs don't sound right with more than two parts. Just because you hear a harmonic "hole" doesn't mean that it is a good idea to fill it. To my ears the more parts, the more barber-shoppy the sound becomes. Not always a good thing in my opinion.

Also, a lot of the harmony singers I am familiar with sing what I think of as "church" harmony. Not always a good thing for all songs, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 10:26 AM

Hey, Russ:

Well said. In art, movies, music... any creative expression, "holes" are as important as the body. Holes are not necessarily accidental, or because of the limitation of the artists. Holes are often an integral part of the design. Would the Everly Brothers have been better if there were four of them? I thinketh not. How about Simon and Garfunkel and Fred and Throckmorton? In jazz, listening to Chet Baker and Gerry Mullgian wrap each other's counterpoint around a tune was beautiful. A third counterpoint would have been counter-productive.

Jerry

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From:
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:32 PM

My friend and I both sing harmony as a duet. We agree that there are times when harmony should not be sung, even if the original artist may have had harmonies with the song. That is when the performer is singing it with so much feeling that you can hear their heart breaking, harmony only detracts from this instead of add to it. Also, like a privious post, if it is forced or off-key, nothing worse than the nails on the chalkboard effect when you are trying to enjoy something. Susu

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: Dreaded Thumbpick
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 02:02 PM

Silence or rests are very powerful communicators in singing. I discovered that when I started to do a capella stuff.

Boy, it was scary to not have that guitar available to fill the gaps when you forgot a line. But the power of unaccompanied singing is, I think, unmatched. When I listen to field recordings of, particularly, the singing of prison work gangs, they tend to send chills up my spine. The great gospel quartets also affect me that way.

Come to think of it so do Gregorian Chants and Almeida Riddle, Dee Hicks, and many others.

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 08:16 AM

My wife and I occasionally do a little a cappella harmony in public. Just two parts. After a performance, a friend and member of an excellent string band made the most thoughtful comment we've ever heard. He said that in contrast to us his band worked to fill time and the air with sounds. When my wife and I sang, the silences between the verses became powerful and as important as the verses themselves. He intended it to be a positive remark and we've always taken it as such.

Didn't think there'd be any point in posting this in the guitar accompaniment threads.

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: kendall
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 02:17 AM

I think we all agree that if you are going to sing along, be on key! The problem is, there are people who sing along and they don't know they are off key!
Jacqui and I went to a cabaret gig by GABERLUNZIE the other night in Scotland, and some guy beside me thought he could sing. Hell, he was so lost his face should be on a milk carton.
Worse than that, they allowed a handful of addicts to smoke which drove me from the room. Never again, I've been coughing ever since. Will the folks in the UK ever come out of the dark ages?

Subject: RE: To Harmonize, or not Harmonize
From: John C.
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 10:39 AM

As an (non-smoking) inhabitant of the UK I refuse to rise to the bait! Excuse me while fix the thatch on the roof, chop a few more logs for the fire and feed the pigs. Now where did I leave that helmet and battle-axe?