Favourite Piano

Subject: Favourite Piano
From: Mooh
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 09:29 AM

Sometimes the best instrument in the world is the one in your hands. (Now, now, no innuendo.) But what about that least portable of instruments, the piano. Hardly minstrel folk, but it sure has a following in the rural halls and church basements in these parts, and has been a folk instrument for 2 centuries even if it hasn't been as portable as the fiddle or guitar. You should hear the thing played by the folks at the nursing home, at the church social, in the back of the last old-time greasy spoon, or in some derelict hotel. Magic, no matter how dilapidated.

So, what's your favourite piano?

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 09:32 AM

A Bosendorfer grand with Oscar Peterson attached!
Or any old joanna with Fats Waller at the keyboard.
Or my 1909 Grunert Hupfeld player piano: at least I can pedal that!

RtS

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 09:42 AM

I can't say it's my favorite, but I am fond of my piano, which is an Ivors and Pond built in 1906. The bass is wonderfully rich and resonant. The highest notes are a little harsh, but with a delicate touch they sound okay.

A tuner-technician has worked on its felts, etc, so that it is in pretty good condition. It has a Dampp-chaser and now, two Music-sorb bags to control the humidity inside it.

I'm going to have a 100th-birthday party for it next summer.

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: *daylia*
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 10:53 AM

My favourite is my parent's Yamaha grand. My teacher twisted their arms for years to get a "decent instrument" for me, to replace the old upright the family had been in love with forever. She told them the action was so "easy" and unpredictable that I'd never develop the strength and dexterity in hands and fingers that a good pianist requires if I continued to practice on that old instrument. It was VERY hard to demote the poor ole clunker to the basement, believe me - but they finally did it.    And they've never regretted it. They paid $3200 for that grand piano in '71. It's worth about $10,000 now and it's tone and action has only improved over the years.

Still, I used to think it was the best piano in the world until I tried out a $65,000 Steinway on the show-room floor. What a difference! Such a smooth, wide range of tonal possibilities - and so SENSITIVE to every muscular nuance - every tiny variation of touch / arm weight. WOW!!!

It's heartwarming - albeit frustrating - to watch how people can get so attached to old pianos.   Doesn't matter if the keys all have a different touch (ie you could play some with a feather, but others require a jackhammer), or if some of them don't work at all, or if it sounds tinny or muffled or twangs annoyingly, or you hear 3 tones instead of one when you play a key, or that it couldn't hold it's tune to save your life, or even that that the teacher or piano technician demonstrates without a doubt why it truly IS junk!   It's still our very very special piano - great-grandma shipped it all the way from Zimbabwe after all - and we love it!

And it's good enough for the kids to start on, right? Why bother tuning, repairing or replacing it? It's only music, after all - not something really important, like sports or video games.

As a piano teacher, I can't count how many times over the years I've heard "Why doesn't it sound like this when I practice at home? I sound so awful at home!"   "I really like that piece! But I won't be able to play it - that pedal/those keys don't work on my piano." "My piano sounds so much different than yours!"

Well, it's because I can - and do! - tune and repair mine!   No wonder those kids finally quit. It's not that they "lose interest" (which is usually what I'm told) - it's because they can't produce a pleasing sound on their ole clunkers no matter how hard or how long they try.

I tried this tactic with parents - would you give your kid your grandpa's rusty broken down old bike, with the bent handle-bars and the wheels falling off - and say "here you go kid, learn to ride! I know it's not the greatest bike, but it's been in the family for YEARS and you're just a beginner. So it's good enough."

Old pianos can be lovely antique furniture, adding that "special touch" to any room. Most of them, however, are (sorry to say it) simply worthless as musical instruments - unless honkey-tonk is the only style you care to play. As a teacher, I'm really looking forward to the day when that last old Heintzman finally bites the dust. And my piano technician tells me it's almost here!

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: Mooh
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 10:56 AM

Having seen Oscar Peterson play solo, I can agree!

My old beater (and it's beat to hell, I don't have a good one, yet...) is a Mason and Risch upright. I'm considering rehabilitating the thing, just to be stubborn.

The proliferation of electrics these days is cool, but I don't know what it's doing to promote the sale of acoustic pianos.

Archie and Edith, that'll be the bride and me in a few years.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: mack/misophist
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 11:01 AM

Although I no longer play, I remember the various pianos quite well. Always, I preferred an upright to a grand. All the baby grands I played felt like some one had poured syrup in the works; the one full grand was a monster. Give me an upright.

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: *daylia*
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 11:11 AM

With an upright, the music sounds like it's coming out of a thick wooden box. (Which, of course, it is) I prefer the big, full resonance of a grand, myself.

And I'd rather see my students start out on a digital keyboard with touch-sensitive keys that never needs tuning, than on a 100-year old upright that's a battle to play and/or hasn't seen a tuner/technician for decades.

Sorry for going on and on about this - but it's one of my 'pet peeves' (as you may have noticed)

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 12:02 PM

When I was still a piano student in college, the music school bought us a Kawai baby grand, and only piano majors could sign up to practice on it. Damn, that was One Sweet Piano.

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: *daylia*
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 12:10 PM

It's worth about $10,000 now and it's tone and action has only improved over the years.

Ha! I'm just as blindly romantic about old family instruments as anyone else, I see! :-)

In actual fact, that piano's action and tone are showing it's years of wear and tear. The keys will need regulating soon, the hardened, worn felts on the hammers will need to be replaced and eventually, all of the strings as well. There's one in the bass end now that's so corroded it's impossible to tune it anymore - and a few of the keys are starting feel 'looser' than others   

*sniff*

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 07:57 PM

I once found a Baby Upright in a music shop.

No, wait on, with my reputation, I'll rephrase that....

I once found a Baby Upright Piano in a music shop - a miniature but perfectly good working piano for younger children.

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 08:03 PM

Putting thumb tacks in the end of the hammers may improve that hony tonk tone...

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 08:35 PM

and what about old musty damp stinking rodent infested pianos..


health hazards when you open the lid and breathe in the mould spores..



..... "space needed, offered free to collecter".. yeah right..

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: Justa Picker
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 08:56 PM

I like certain models of Yamaha, Baldwin, Steinway and Bosendorfer.
I like a chunky, articulate, fat, bass end. I gravitate towards a very bright, crisp sound in the mids with an almost glassine texture as one ascends up towards the summit.

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 09:12 PM

Just because a piano's old doesn't mean it's junk. They need maintenance and re-building as the years pass, but that's to be expected. Mine is old and brings me much pleasure.

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: jimmyt
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 09:14 PM

My wife played everything in a three state area and finally went with the Baldwin Artist model grand. It is not as good of instrument as the Steinway but it is a wonderfullw warm sounding instrument. It has doubled in price in the last 7 years and I wish my investments did that well. She enjoys it a great deal and I enjoy hearing it. THere is something substantial to the touch on a full grand that is never quite there with other models.

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 11:30 PM

"Mine is old and brings me much pleasure."

So is mine, and I don't even have a piano in the house!

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: Mooh
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 11:38 PM

There used to be a piano factory in the next town east of where I live. There must have once been more like it. Shame they're gone now. I tinkered on a Yamaha baby grand recently in the big city, and I gotta say it was stellar no matter how much I wish it was built locally. Used to think they weren't consistent but I can easily imagine myself buying one if I ever win the lottery.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: Kaleea
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 11:41 PM

Just last night I dreamed that someone gave me a grand piano! Half of the keys were broken--literally.

My fav piano was one I had years back-Thiery, made in 1900 in Chicago, Illinois, a "Grand Upright." While there is no such thing as Grand piano that is an upright (different action), it certainly had the grandest tone on any I've ever owned-when it was in tune. I've never owned a grand piano, but my brother has had a terrific Yamaha Grand for several years now. I now have an electric piano, with weighted action of course, and I never have to pay a tuner.

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: number 6
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 11:49 PM

So right Mooh ... there is nothing like the sound of those old uprights, the ones found in church basements, rural halls!

sIx

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: Mooh
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:33 AM

There's an old gal who regularly plays piano accompaniment at the Legion Hall when the old time fiddlers and the like gather to play. She can make that piano rollick like it's rising from the dead, but it sounds dead under anyone else's hands! Beats the hell out of canned music. I wonder if there will always be someone to play that thing.

Besides good hands, what makes a piano so good?

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: GUEST,Grab
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:47 AM

We got an old upright from our ex-landlord who repairs/restores pianos and pianolas, for £1600 as I remember. Boy, were we ripped off! Damn thing never held its tuning, and the pegs were so worn it never would without a total rebuild. We just recently traded it in for a Roland digi piano (£1200, £300 part-ex on the old one), cos we couldn't stand it any more.

You can definitely tell the difference in touch - even with weighted keys, it doesn't quite feel like the real thing, and the sound isn't quite like a proper piano either. It's an order of magnitude better than our old upright though in tone and feel! Plus of course you can choose different piano sounds with a digi piano (or organ, or whatever) which is always fun. And it's portable, or more accurately luggable (I seem to remember it weighs about 50lbs). And it takes up much less space too. So you're getting reliability, versatility, compactness and portability at the cost of some quality of sound and feel. Not a bad trade-off, really.

Best piano I've played though was a Steinway in a music shop. Lovely instrument - it did exactly what you wanted and sounded magic. Since we don't have £40k to spare though, and we're neither of us good enough to warrant it, that'll stay an "only-if-we-win-the-lottery" item!

Graham.

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 09:01 AM

What makes these old uprights sound so unique and good. Good question. I'm certainly not an expert on piano construction ... but it's probably the choice of wood and steel. This along with the accoustics of of the basements and halls.

Ever move one of these ?!?!?!

sIx

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: Charmion
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:04 AM

That ain't steel, number 6, at least not in the frame. It's cast iron!

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 11:23 AM

Old uprights that have been tuned and repaired regularly can be fine instruments. The problem is that a lot of owners don't bother with maintenance, and the piano deteriorates to the point where it's beyond repair.   If a piano is not tuned regularly, the tension created by the strings on the soundboard changes. The pitch drops, and over time the wood warps. The soundboard may even crack, drastically reducing tone quality and making tuning impossible. At that point, the piano might make for a fine antique or perhaps great kindling - but not much else.

So what makes a good piano?   I think the size of the harp - (the strings and supporting metal structure) and the quality and condition of the soundboard (the big unfinished sheet of wood that the harp is attached to) is of primary importance. For sound quality, "the bigger the better" pretty well says it all regarding the harp. (Unfortunately, it usually says it all regarding the price tag too!) And the soundboard acts as "amplifier" and "resonater", anchoring the strings as well.

If you're considering buying a used piano from a private owner, check the soundboard first - it's best made of spruce and free of cracks, warps or water marks. If you find any of these defects, the instrument IS junk.

Then try ALL the keys - do they all function? Is there buzzing or sticking? Are some stiffer than others?   Place a nickel on Middle C or the notes around it (the most "used" keys, usually). The weight of the coin should NOT cause the key to drop. If it does, the action is worn and loose - probably too "easy" to develop the muscles necessary for good piano playing.

Try the pedals. Do they stick or clunk? PLay a few keys while holding the right pedal down. They should keep sounding after you release the keys. Then try the left pedal. The tone should be noticeably softer.

Check the hammers for worn, deeply grooved or missing felts. And after all this if you're satisfied with the piano's condition, just play it for a few minutes - or have someone else play it - and LISTEN. Do you like the tone? Pianos can be mellow and warm, or loud and bright, deep, tinkly - which sound do you prefer? This is important - you'll probably be listening to it for a long long time!   

I remember choosing a studio piano when I was in my early twenties. At the time, rocker that I am at heart, I loved a loud bright tone. I chose a Wurlitzer upright because it had that bright, loud "high" sound and because it had such a pretty design (as a piece of furniture, that is).   But the last few years I owned it, that bright sound that I loved so much in my twenties became so screechy and annoying - it was driving me NUTS! In my old age I've learned to value softer, warmer mellower sounds, I guess...

That Wurlitzer gave me 23 years of faithful service in my studio. It endured at least half a dozen little (and not-so-little) pounders/day for years. I'd paid $4300 for it brand new - last year I sold it to a piano technician for $1200 - well worth the investment imo. I didn't want to sell it privately, because I knew as a teacher's instrument it was due for a LOT of service. I didn't want to rip anyone off trying to get what I needed for it. And it had lost NONE of it's beauty as a piece of furniture, making it easy for the technician to resell.

3 months ago I finally bought a new studio piano - this one. I can't say it's my favourite yet - just haven't spent enough quality time with it I suppose. I've only 2 complaints though ... the black high gloss finish shows up EVERY LITTLE FINGERPRINT which means I have to clean it every night after work or it looks like doo-doo AARRGHHH. And the upper two octaves are so resonant it sounds like the damper pedal is on when it's not. I asked the technician about this, and he said it's because Yamaha uprights have such a "fine quality soundboards".   Hmmmm - guess I'll get used to it eventually ....

One last thing about what makes a 'good piano' - try to find one built of wood native to your own climate. Specifically, don't get suckered in by those "wet pianos" on sale so cheap right now in North America. These are pianos built by Yamaha or Kawai, Samick etc in Japan or other places in the East. They were originally designed for homes in the Orient with a very humid climate. The wood just doesn't hold up in the much drier climate in North America - the soundboards warp and crack and within a few years the piano is ruined.

Yamaha learned after a couple years to build pianos destined for NA out of NA sprucewood, but there are still quite a few "wet pianos" being imported here. So how can you tell if it's a "wet piano"? Simply by the price tag - brand new, they are half the price of regular models.

Anyways I've gone on WAY too long here - but it's been fun! Happy tinkling to all!

Subject: RE: Favourite Piano
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 12:33 PM

"The Piano Shop on the Left Bank" is a great book for anyone interested in the piano.