banjo: nylon/gut string knots?

Subject: banjo: nylon/gut string knots?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:04 AM

I've finally gotten around to restringing my first banjo, a "spun-rim" (metal-clad, wood rim, pre- tone-ring) banjo, with nylon strings. I just tied double (or triple) half hitches at the tailpiece. Anybody know of a web site that might illustrate a proper knot, or got another to suggest? It seems these ought to do, but they're not lovely.

~ Becky in Tuscon

Subject: RE: banjo: nylon/gut string knots?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:12 AM

Frets.com. Everything and more you could want to lnow about fretted instruments.

eric

Subject: RE: banjo: nylon/gut string knots?
From: Les B
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:32 AM

Desert Dancer - the half hitch is a great knot - holds everything from horses to boats - hard to go wrong.

You might take a look at how classical guitar strings are attached to the bridge - I vaguely remember a fairly simple overlap attachment.

So how do you tune nylon/gut strings ? Three steps lower than normal banjo tuning ?

Subject: RE: banjo: nylon/gut string knots?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 12:05 AM

eric the red -- my tailpiece looks like the first one here (well, not so lovely, but functionally the same). Unfortunately all the pics here are about steel strings with loop ends.

Les B -- I've got a classical guitar, too, but the bridge there is a different thing, so you're not really tying a knot. Frets.com has it here.

I've tuned it a step and a half down to E, but just because that lets me sing some things more easily with it than I've been able to in standard tuning. It seemed I could do standard G just fine, if I wished.

I've got the old-fashioned, non-geared pegs on my instrument, and tuning has always been a serious hassle. I think it'll be a much happier instrument with the nylon strings -- and give me an excuse to use it for variety, instead of it just being redundant. (It was my first -- of only two -- and I haven't wanted to let it go.)

~ Becky

Subject: RE: banjo: nylon/gut string knots?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 12:24 AM

Becky,

I think the same knot as used on a classical guitar bridge will work here. You probably need to hold it together untul the tuners tighten it up. It is basically a log rolling hitch as found in many very old Boy Scout Handbooks.

Good luck.

Don

Subject: RE: banjo: nylon/gut string knots?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 01:01 AM

'course, I could get a "no-knot" tailpiece, invented to solve the problem, but I think that would be too high-tech for this very plain no-name banjo. My Fairbanks Imperial has one of those. :-)

Don, I suppose that hitch might be a relation to the fisherman's knot recommended here.

~ Becky

Subject: RE: banjo: nylon/gut string knots?
From: Les B
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 01:03 AM

Desert Dancer - yeah, those friction pegs are a pain in the patoot to deal with. I'm a big believer in using geared pegs - otherwise you spend all your time tuning and not playing.

From looking at the picture it might be a tad difficult making the classic guitar knot hold - or it might be a two person job. I also see from the banjo tailpiece that you would have to actually "build" your double half-hitch, not just make the two loops and drop them over something. Still... a double half hitch, or similar knot, (get a book from the library?) seems the best approach. It's simple, takes up very little space, and will tighten down almost immediately.

Subject: RE: banjo: nylon/gut string knots?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 01:25 AM

I'm a knot-tying fan from way back (from "Woodswoman" qualifications in campcraft at summer camp, and a little bit of rock climbing). Half-hitches are old friends. But, I never was a Boy Scout. :-) Don, is this the rolling hitch you mean? It does look like the classical guitar thing. I think the problem with it would be that my banjo tailpiece is fairly thin -- there's not much room for those wraps, especially with the heavier fourth string.

~ Becky
Hey, look, Cat's Paw!

Subject: RE: banjo: nylon/gut string knots?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:02 AM

Can't claim to have tried it for instruments, but for tying off where a string will be under strain, my Scouting history would suggest
Round Turn & Two Half-Hitches This would seem ideal if you are tying to a bar at right angles to the string.
For a bar roughly in line with the string, the previosly mentioned Timber Hitch would seem to recommend itself

Nigel

Subject: RE: banjo: nylon/gut string knots?
From: Les B
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:43 PM

Desert Dancer - looking at Nigel's blicky I discover that what I call a double half-hitch is there called a "clove hitch" - and it looks like it should work.

Subject: RE: banjo: nylon/gut string knots?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:46 PM

There is almost certainly a traditional knot for gut/nylon strings on a banjo, but I haven't a clue how it might be tied. I suspect, though, that a successful one would not be one found in typical boy scout or nautical knot books.

The classical guitar attachment doesn't seem directly applicable to your bridge, but perhaps on of the fiddle sites would have something more suitabe - until a real "banjo knot" can be found.

Nylon and gut strings behave similarly, but are a lot different than the typical "limp" ropes, lines, or strings made of other materials. A classic difference can be seen in the "surgeons knot" that may be found in some of the knot books. It's just a square knot with the first overhand wrap doubled (wrapped twice) before the second overhand is made. The double wrap "bunches" when the knot is drawn up, to profide a friction grip that prevents the slipping that would otherwise occur.

When most "rope knots" are used with nylon or gut, the knot will more or less cut the line, resulting in a weak spot at the knot that typically limits you to using a small percentage of the available strength of the "bare line." Most knots are intended to "crimp" one part of the line into an adjacent part with large bearing pressure of one part of the line against another, and the two parts cut into - and weaken - each other when used on gut or nylon.

One "occupational group" that does a lot of tying of nylon lines onto things is recreational fishing nuts. A secure attachment of a gut or nylon string to "something with a hole in it" might be one of the several knots these guys use to attach fish hooks (or swivels/snaps) to nylon fishline. I seem to remember claims that a simple double half-hitch used to tie a hook onto a nylon line gets only about 20% of the line strength. There are other slightly more complex knots that can get up to 80% - 90% of full line strength. An unfortunate feature of these knots is that most of them can't be untied.

The classical guitar attachment linked at Frets.com uses the same "method" that the fishing knots apply, by getting enough string-on-string and/or string on bridge pressure to prevent slipping, without producing any single really-big pressure point that could allow one part of the string to bite into another part and produce a weak spot.

While I've got a fistful of favorite knots that do a fine job on ropes and lines of conventional kind, most of them are useless on nylon or gut. If tied tight enough so they don't slip, they just cut the string. Different thinking is needed here.

John

Subject: RE: banjo: nylon/gut string knots?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:57 PM

I recall Pete Seeger mentioned Paul Cadwell in his red book of banjo instruction. Paul played gut style banjo and a I believe he used fishing line for strings. I don't remember if it was described as to how the strings were attached. There certainly are some fly tying and fishing knots (bloodknots???) that should work.

And yes Becky, those knots are what I recalled.

Don

Subject: RE: banjo: nylon/gut string knots?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 03:17 PM

The "fishermans knot" at the link Becky provided (and that DonM recalled?) is incomplete for fishing, and likely would slip, but might be okay for a banjo string. The free end needs to make one more pass through the loop between the red and blue parts of the line to make a "complete" knot as usually used. Leaving off the last anchoring of the free end might make untying the knot possible for the larger strings, which may be the reason for showing it this way.

John

Subject: RE: banjo: nylon/gut string knots?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 07:31 PM

The ideal knot that can be quickly placed over a post, like a No-Knot tailpiece, is the clove hitch - very simple to construct, and very secure under tension, and not bulky like some of the suggestions. I used it as a rock-climbing belay knot for years - totally bomb proof, and it's great for nylon or gut strings.
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: banjo: nylon/gut string knots?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 12:50 AM

I think I would be inclined next time to give the clove hitch a try: a knot that works well under tension, but is easy to untie when the tension is released.

Thanks for your contributions.

~ Becky