BS: Lock and Load

Subject: BS: Lock and Load
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 07:53 AM

What does this mean? I keep hearing this in films and doesn't make much sense to me. How can you load a weapon once you've loaded it?

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:00 AM

Safety catch?

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: gnu
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:17 AM

Safety first.

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: gnu
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:28 AM

Hmmm... perhaps more info is appropriate. The safety is engaged to prevent discharge when the action on a semi-automatic or full-automatic weapon is "let forward" to load a cartridge into the breech. The spring which drives the action forward when let forward is heavy duty and exerts quite a force. When the action reaches the fully closed position, the force can jar the trigger mechanism so hard that the firing pin is let forward, causing accidental discharge.

Always lock the safety on before ya load one up the spout.

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:31 AM

I think that as far as movies are concerned, it just sounds flashy. But--

In the case of Walther pistols, such as the P-38, PP, and PPK, and the Smith & Wesson Model 39 (all douoble action semi-automatics), the safe way to load the pistol is to lock it, i.e., put on the safety--a small lever on the left side of the pistol's slide--then insert the loaded magazine into the grip, and if you wish to carry it ready to fire, draw the slide back and release it, which chambers a round. With the safety on, there is a block between the hammer and the firing pin, and the firing pin itself is prevented from moving. Then--if you anticipate having to use it suddenly, release the safety. Actually, even with a round in the chamber and the safety off, these semi-autos are as safe to carry as a double-action revolver.

To avoid the risk of blowing your toe off while loading the gun, lock and load.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:36 AM

Standard (US) military jargon from firing ranges, at least before the 1980s (the last time I was on a range), i.e. the range officer or sergeant says over the loudspeaker "Lock (the safety) and load one six round magazine" (in preparation for firing). Soon came to mean "load your weapons".

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:50 AM

The command in the early '60s, when using the US Rifle, caliber .30, M-1 was "Lock, eight rounds ball (or blank or tracer or whatever) ammunition, load."

That told you to lock the weapon (put on the safety) and load a clip of eight cartridges of the type of ammo specified.

By the way, a "clip" is simply a thing that keeps a number of cartridges together, they are fed into the weapon by a spring mechanism that is part of the weapon. A "magazine" is a device whereby cartridges a fed into the weapon by a spring mechanism contained within the device itself. In the US Armed Services you did NOT confuse the two (at least within the hearing of a NCO) except at your peril -- it was as bad as calling your rifle your "gun."

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 09:13 AM

or maybe it has to do with putting on the safety before you load the gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 09:14 AM

I can push the usage back to the 50's. It's probably older than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: gnu
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 09:14 AM

A few years ago, I was required to take the Canada Firearms Safety Course test (course optional) in order to obtain the new Possession and Aquisition License (PAL). Apart from a half-dozen errors in the text, I was surprised that one had to learn and be tested on the use of handguns, even though such are "restricted" in Canada and passing this test would not result in a "restricted" designation. That designation requires a separate course and test.

The last part of the PAL test I took was a demonstration of proper handling of handguns. Several handguns lay on a table and a beside them was a pile of assorted blanks. I was told to pick up a revolver. I did so and did the normal routine. I was then told something like, "Show me how you would load and prepare to fire it." I laid it on the table, looked at the fellow and said, "That's what I would do with any pistol." I passed the test with a perfect score.

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 09:32 AM

I've had a "concealed carry" license for many years (no, I rarely, rarely use it -- I can think of only once in the past 10 years, and that involved escorting someone carrying a LOT of cash to the bank -- when I have to carry a pistol to work is the day I'll retire).

To get this I was tested and fingerprinted and had background checks run. In both Kentucky and Idaho I also had to demonstrate that I was familiar with rifles, pistols, and handguns and could use them safely. Heck, Kentucky required that I take a course first that consisted of both class and range time -- and the focus was on when NOT to shoot and the legal ramifications you face if you elect to do so.

In that Kentucky course there was NO ONE (excepting the instructor) who I would have wanted at my side in a bad situation. There are only four or five Mudcatters I would would want, and in the "real world" I can count them on my fingers. That's how many people I would actually trust around me with a firearm.

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:00 AM

The safety should be on unless you're going to shoot. I believe telling even somewhat experienced people to lock the safety would be like telling people to breathe.

My understanding of it, from the 90's at the latest is:

Lock the magazine into place. You push it in and give it a smack to make sure it's secure

Load the chamber. Pull back the charging handle then let go so it snaps back into place, loading a round into the chamber.

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:03 AM

Rapaire, you had tracer ammo for your M-1?

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:16 AM

Jeri, never give the magazine a "smack." That's strictly for the movies. If you insert the magazine and "give it a smack," there is always the danger of bending the lips of the magazine. This could cause the weapon not to feed properly or to jam. Insert the magazine until you hear and feel it latch into place. This can be done very quickly. Smacking it is strictly for Sylvester Stallone.

My father grew up in a rural area and was around firearms all the time. He instructed me well.

One aspect of firearms safety:   

One summer, Mike Lieb (a folk singing friend of mine from the late Fifties and early Sixties) and I went out into the country almost every Sunday afternoon to do some plinking and target shooting. We knew of a couple gravel pits and other isolated areas with good backstops. Mike was quite safety conscious, as was (am) I.

One evening, several of us were at Mike's apartment, and he mentioned to me that he had just bought a Ruger Single-Six. The Single-Six is a traditional looking Western style revolver, but with a modernized mechanism, and it comes with two cylinders, one for .22 LR and one for .22 Magnum. He brought it out, opened the gate, turned the cylinder, and checked to see that all chambers were empty. Then he closed the gate and handed it to me. Like my father taught me, I opened the gate, turned the cylinder and checked to make sure that all the chambers were empty. Then I examined and admired it. Very nice firearm.

Jim , one of the other guests, asked Mike if he could look at it. Mike said okay. I handed the revolver to Jim. Jim cocked the hammer, aimed at the wall, and squinted down the barrel, all set to dry-fire it.

Mike said, "Wait a minute, Jim! How do you know that revolver is not loaded?"

"Well," said Jim, "I watched both you and Don check it."

"Yes," said Mike. "But how do you know?"

There are certain things that you NEVER take on faith.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: GUEST,four simple rules
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:47 AM

All firearms are loaded. - There are no exceptions. Don't pretend that this is true. Know that it is and handle all firearms accordingly. Do not believe it when someone says: "It isn't loaded."

Never let the muzzle of a firearm point at anything you are not willing to destroy. - If you would not want to see a bullet hole in it do not allow a firearm's muzzle to point at it.

Keep your finger off the trigger unless your sights are on the target. - Danger abounds if you keep your finger on the trigger when you are not about to shoot. Speed is not gained by prematurely placing your finger on the trigger as bringing a firearm to bear on a target takes more time than it takes to move your finger to the trigger.

Be sure of your target and what is behind it. - Never shoot at sounds or a target you cannot positively identify. Know what is in line with the target and what is behind it (bullets are designed to go through things). Be aware of your surroundings whether on a range, in the woods, or in a potentially lethal conflict.

Remember, safety is a state of mind, not mechanics! Take nothing for granted!

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:56 AM

Don, I just meant make sure it's firmly locked into place. A smack is not forcing it, but it's un-necessary and I shouldn't have mentioned it. If the magazine pushes into place without a problem, the chances you're going to bend something are pretty slim. It's like cross-threading a screw - it's not that last little turn that causes the damage, it's all the turning you do to get to that point. But you can feel the magazine lock in anyway, with or without the tap.

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:19 AM

some load bagels with lox.

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: Stu
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:21 AM

Better still, put the gun down!

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 12:04 PM

Yeah. They issued it by mistake, and told us to go ahead and use it. It set fire to a bunch of Ft. Leonard Wood's range area. The next day they did it again.

Then the post fire marshall came down -- hard! -- on the range officers.

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 12:40 PM

Yeah, Jeri, I just wanted to be sure. I've seen people in real life slipping a magazine in place and then banging it hard with their palm, and I know that they've seen one Rambo movie too many.

Another one that makes me want to scream is one you see in television cop shows all the time. Somebody pokes cartridges into the cylinder of a revolver, and then rather than holding it in one hand and closing the cylinder with the other, they give it a whip of the wrist, snapping the cylinder shut. Do this enough times, and they wind up with hot lead shaved off a slug by a misalignment between cylinder and barrel spraying out on their hand. I've seen people in real life do that one, too.

Well, gunsmiths need to make a living too, I guess.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: gnu
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:07 PM

Gunsmiths... minds me of another one. I'll skip the story and go straight to the end... the gunsmith was only gone five minutes and my father, an expert in small arms while in the service for thirty years, asked, "How much do I owe you?" The smith said, "Oh. Five bucks." Upon hearing the very low price, Dad said, "Five bucks. What did you do?" The smith replied, "What did I do? Oh now, that'll cost ya fifty bucks."

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:16 PM

Good one, gnu.

"The bill is $50.25."

"So much!!??? Why so much!??"

"Two bits for the replacement screw. Fifty bucks for knowing which screw to replace."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:10 PM

What always amuses me is the amount of TV cops who fire a gun then immediately stuff it down their pants to jump over a wall to get the bad guy..... Makes me wince and laugh every time!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:13 PM

perhaps it refers to flintlock ( and earlier) guns, where there were two powder "loads" required- the pan ( "lock" and the barrel ("load").
Thus, lock and load would indicate that both were ready to fire.

But I had always seen it refering to locking the breech open, and loading the shell.

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:28 PM

Liz I never fired a pistol and wouldn't stick one down my pants anyway, but... M-16s now have a deflector thingie for shell casings, but they once didn't. I fire left-handed. The hot brass casings would eject, boink off my right arm and sometimes fly down my shirt, where they would get stuck in my bra. I learned to button the top button on my shirt.

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:47 PM

Ah, no on the flintlock loading.

If you were to do that, you'd prime the pan (put priming powder in the pan under the lock); this powder, when ignited by sparks from the flint striking the frizzen (the other part of the lock), burns through a hole in the side of the barrel and ignites the main charge of powder.

If you primed the pan and closed the frizzen and moved the lock from half-cock (a "safety" position) to uncocked (resting against the frizzen) and THEN ran the main load down the barrel you could (concievably) ignite the priming powder and have the weapon go off. Unsafe, embarassing, and dangerous.

Besides, you could have all or a lot of the priming powder fall out when you upended the weapon to load the main charge.

I think that the commands were something like "Load your firelocks!" and "Prime your firelocks!"

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: MuddleC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 07:28 PM

generally, I take the command 'lock and load' to mean 'lock magazine into position'(presumably a loaded mag) and 'load a cartridge into the breech', normally by racking the action.

This would not apply to revolvers of course, but could refer to rifles with detachable mags.
As my underlever action rifle has an internal tube magazine, 'lock' wouldn't mean much, but 'load' would mean priming the mag with cartridges, the same goes for a revolver's cylinder.

As for applying safety's, well, sure for most semiauto's but my 9mm S&W DAO (double action only) doesn't have one!, whereas the .40S&W does, being a DA on the first shot and SA (single action) thereafter.
As for tapping the bottom of the mag smartly to check it is engaged properly, if that bends the tangs, then it's time to get a stronger gun!
Basically, what you see in the movies is not the way in reality!!

Immediate action drill on stoppage.. 'tap-rack-bang!'

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:02 PM

MuddleC, I've seen the lips of magazines get bent a couple of ways. One is to jam it hard into the grip (such as slapping it on the po-po). Another is to drop it on a hard surface (concrete floor of the police range). They're not made of the same kind of steel as the rest of the pistol, and they can bend pretty easily. This is on nigh most everything from S$W semi-autos to Walthers to Berettas to a Ruger Mark II to ye olde slab-sided Colt 1911A ACP. But they don't bend unless they're abused in some way.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:57 PM

My mum's sister married a USAF serviceman. My dad (ex-RAF) and Uncle Jim loved to go out fishing around Bundaberg where we lived. One day they found a really good spot. They soon found out why - it was behind the stops at the rifle range. They crawled out of the situation. They said they hadn't seen any warning sign - obviously the locals knew...

Uncle Jim said he had hoped never to come under fire again...

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 09:58 PM

I've always felt (and been told) that if the magazine seats itself correctly there's no need to bang it -- and if it doesn't you don't use it.

I do so love the way firearms are portrayed in the movies. I especially like it when the baddies put a silencer on a revolver.

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 10:28 AM

Thanks all, that makes sense to lock the firing mechanism on semi or fully automatic weapons: having only fired a bolt action rifle if you lock it you can't then load it!

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 10:44 AM

Reminds of the golden days in boot camp, and being in a cold sweat when in charge of a range in later years ...

The "control smack" after inserting the magazine into our good old assault rifle G3 was mandatory when I was a private, to be sure that you won't lose it in the attack. This rifle was "soldier proof" and not even the lips of the magazine could be bent. Nevertheless, one day when I came to the range as lieutenant the NCOs told me that the smack was abandonded now.

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: Chip2447
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 02:35 PM

From the information that I've found on this subject the original term was "Load and Lock". Meaning to load your musket and lock the hammer back to half cock.

John Wayne is credited for reversing it to lock and load in the film "The Sands of Iwo Jima."

Lock and load, while not making sense in that context does roll off the tongue better than load and lock.

Chip2447

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 02:54 PM

Lock and Load? It's what many a 'Catter wants to say after reading Shambles' endless, boring-ass, postings..............Luckily for the Lil Dude that most 'Catters are into gun control.......but even they can make an exception.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: MuddleC
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 02:57 PM

True Don, dropping the mag onto concrete or trying to insert it covered in mud -is not a good idea.
Doing reload drill whilst firing is interesting and I've heard two schools of thought.
one is eject the mag when empty and forget about it, whilst another school said don't run the pistol till its dry, just catch the ejected mag, load the new one and pop the mag into you pocket for repriming, or to check it later for remaining round during a quiet spell!

Some pistol mags 'hang'when ejected , others are gone like an ex-wife in a Ferrari, so take your pick.
Some drills in the range are not suitable for real situations and viki-verka

In my forces days, we knew it was for real when they gave us the bullets gun and internal parts all at once!!

bang, bang, click, click... oh sh**!

Subject: RE: BS: Lock and Load
From: gnu
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 04:38 PM

MuddleC said, "...don't run the pistol till its dry, just catch the ejected mag, load the new one and pop the mag into you pocket for repriming..."

My brother had a film (Beta tape) of his buddy in Nam doing such a thing, but with an edge. It was amazing to me. This lad had three mags taped (electrical tape) together at 120 degrees each. He emptied all three in no time flat without, it seemed, so much as a burp in between. Then again, he got three Purple Hearts... last one was in the head and that was "it"... my brother quipped that his discharge papers read the reason was... "Moves too slow."