Northumbrian tunes

Subject: Northumbrian tunes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 07:14 AM

Are they more difficult to play or just significantly different to popular session tunes?

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 11:40 AM

They're really difficult to play <vbg>

Some of them even turn up in sessions

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 01:22 PM

An unanaswerable question(s). Lots of easy/wellknown NE tunes appear in sessions. What do you mean? Are you referring to irish sessions? Or southern English sessions? In which case some problems might arise? Explain.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Gedpipes
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 01:37 PM

Give us a clue Les

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 03:25 PM

Ive been learning tunes from a range of Irish session books, that Dave Malinson book and John Kirkpatrick's book of English tunes which I guess are all pitched at the aerlt learner.

But when I here, particularly smallpipe tunes they sound a bit difficult and quite different

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 09:50 AM

A lot of Northumbrian tunes reflect the limitations of the Northumbrian smallpipes. Having a cylindrical bore, they can't be overblown to get the octave, so the range is extended above and below the basic 7 hole compass using keys. The way these keys fall under the piper's fingers shape the tunes, and your fiddle/ whistle/ flute won't have easy intervals in the same place.


That combines with the tradition of exhibition virtuoso piping, and another tradition of extended variations, to make for tunes that are often angular and intricate.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 01:39 PM

Are they played a bit quick as well?

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Little Robyn
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 02:45 PM

That depends on the piper - if you listen to Billy Pigg or Tom Clough recordings, they play all sorts of notes that my fingers can't manage but if you can find a recording of Jack Armstrong, all his tunes are within reach.
If you want to play Katherine Tickell tunes, you need a few extra fingers or else lots of spare time to practice. Pauline Cato plays really fast, but so clearly you can hear all her notes and it's much easier to follow - but you still need lots of practice.
A lot of the more recent repetoire has come from younger performers who are able to do the fast runs or complicated bits and enjoy showing them off, while the earlier repetoire tended to be based on dance tunes and more lyrical tunes of the day.
Modern day pipers seem to be tired of the old repertoire and are busy writing their own tunes.
I think I'll stick to the old lot!
Robyn

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: 8_Pints
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 06:39 PM

Some of the lovliest are very slow and melodic but are still distinctly pipe tunes e.g. Bonny at Morn, Lament for Ian Dixon and Rothbury Hills.

I doubt you would call them session tunes though!

Bob

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Gedpipes
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 05:51 AM

..and apart from the last one you might not even call them Northumbrian. Which begs the question what exactly is a Northumbrian tune?

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Gillie
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 07:22 AM

A tune from Northumberland, Ged??

BG

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Gedpipes
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 08:26 AM

..maybe or maybe not. A good point BG

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 08:43 AM

Is a Northumbrian tune one that goes - "diddly, diddly, parp, parp, squeak squeak diddly?"

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 12:14 PM

Flamenco?

How does that go then Ted ..............

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 12:23 PM

12.1 2. 3.4.5.6.7.8.910.11.12 Accents on beats 3.6.8.10.12. Bulerias is a 12 beat pattern but it starts on beat 12, so it goes - rumpity rumpity rumpity tump!!! There!

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 12:59 PM

Oh you cheeky rasquedo you!
G.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 02:15 PM

Good one Ted, but I still go with thos little tunes with notes that come out liked shelling peas

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Little Robyn
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 02:18 PM

Buttered peas.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Little Robyn
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 02:35 PM

Like these:
Buttered peas

Robyn

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: GUEST,Fullerton
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 04:16 PM

When I play tunes they sound like not so much like buttered peas more like small coals. And I certainly get no money for playing them.

They are great tunes.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 04:22 PM

The borders of the ancient kingdom of Northumbria went from Edinburgh due south to Carlisle (in the north), and from the Mersey east to the mouth of the Humber (in the south). Yes, Hull lies therein.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Stewart
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 04:26 PM

Here's a great collection of Northumbrian and Tyneside tunes as well as trad Irish and Scottish session tunes.

Pete Loud's Collection of Northumbrian, Tyneside
and other Traditional Tunes for the Fiddle

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 06:47 PM

I mentioned peas earlier. Buttered Peas is a good tune that I can just about knock out - origin?

But I remember, I think Alister Anderson, quoting Billy Pigg, that the notes should come out just like shelling peas. I now have utter confusion in mind because a good friend of ours described child-birth in the same way

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 01:55 AM

As far south as Carlisle? So it's been extended since then?

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 03:46 AM

"I now have utter confusion in mind because a good friend of ours described child-birth in the same way"

That sounds unlikely- to get the Northumbrian style you have to stop up the hole in the end, and let them out one at a time through the fingers.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: mcpiper
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 03:57 AM

I quote the late John Miller. "Northumbrian pipe tunes are different from highland pipe tunes because the northumbrian pipers had smaller cottages and could not march as far, so had to take little short steps quicker".

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Santa
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 03:40 PM

Given that a Saxon cross is in Rothwell church, Northumbria clearly stretched beyond Carlisle into Dumfries and perhaps even Galloway? The Northumbrians also ruled Fife and used Stirling as a major centre. The battle of Nechtansmere (Dunnechan) marked the end of Northumbrian rule north of the Forth, and indeed possibly the first appearance of a combination between the Picts, Scots and maybe even Britons to form the foundation of what we would now recognise as a Scottish identity.

Note that the term Sassenach, nowadays applied to the English, was originally a highland term for Lowland Scots, thus demonstrating the importance of the Saxon presence. Northumbria (at its peak) was much bigger than a north-west limiting line from Edinburgh to Carlisle would suggest.

Not sure what all this has to do with the tunes, though. I don't think that they go that far back.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 05:05 PM

Northumbrians pre-dated the Saxon invasion and indeed Xtianity. It was Edwin who converted. I think the overspill areas were under constant dispute, but there was certainly influence (in both directions) Perhaps the musical tie-in is how those folks banjoed one another (groan ...)

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Tootler
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 06:42 PM

A quick check shows that ancient Northumbria comprised Northeast England and Southeast Scotland, from the Humber to the Forth plus modern Lancashire north of the Ribble Estuary.

Southwest Scotland and Cumbria were in the ancient kingdom of Strathclyde. Carlisle was in Strathclyde not Northumbria.

Click here to see a map

From a traditional music point of view, I suspect that "Northumbrian" refers to the county of Northumberland (Including Newcastle which was part of Northumberland until Edward Heath mucked up the county boundaries).

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Little Robyn
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 02:58 AM

Some people now call the smallpipes Northumberland pipes, not Northumbrian.
I call them Geordie pipes myself!
Robyn

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Paul Burke
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 03:41 AM

Nonono roseate chappie, Northumbria WAS an AS kingdom. There may well have been (Romano-)British political aggregates (the Votadini?) that preceded it in the same territory, but of those we know next to nothing or less. It's all swallowed up in the oblivion of the dark ages, theories of which range from wholesale ethnic cleansing by incoming AngloSaxons, through post- catastrophic winter plague and famine, to nothing much happened at all.

Musically, I think of Northumberland as a survivor of the common musical culture that prevailed, in its various local flavours, over the whole of the British Isles, until urbanisation, commercialisation, and lack of leisure time in early indutrial society caused most of it to wither away.

I wonder how much the flavour of Northumbrian music was a conscious contrast to Scottish, and how much common with it? There was the traditional enmity between the rival borderers, but did that stretch to musical exclusivity? Songs like the Piper of Lochmaben seem to suggest otherwise.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 12:34 PM

Nonono roseate chappie, Northumbria WAS an AS kingdom.

No argument, it was an Anglian kingdom after Ida moved in, but it was still there--and populated--before the Angles arrived of course.

Anyone like to speculate what Romano-Brits sang to keep up morale during sentry duty along Hadrian's Waal in February? There may be a prize ;o)

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Little Robyn
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 02:51 PM

That might be 'Small coals and little money'
Robyn

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Gedpipes
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 03:59 PM

You've comprehensively told me (and Les) where Northumbria is, you have told us us how N'brian tunes sound (thanks Ted - NSP the true path) but no one has really told me (or Les) what is a Northumbrian tune....and I'm losing sleep over it ;-)

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 04:23 AM

Romans in the Gloamin? Stottin' doon the waal? Wor Geordius lost his pilum? There's No Place Like Rome?

Gedpipes: 9/8, as often as not.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: shepherdlass
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 10:21 AM

Just from the viewpoint of geographical boundaries, maybe there's enough commonality (in overlapping bands of musical interest) from the south east of Scotland down to the Tees to justify the broad definition of Northumbrian music, but, let's face it, it's murderous to pin down. Just think where you might draw the line round Irish music - just what comes from the island itself, just from Eire, how about including the diaspora? - and I guess it's a universal problem. Music is pretty darn portable!

But most people seem to agree that Northumbrian tunes are tricky. Possibly down to input into the tradition from particular virtuoso players/tunesmiths like James Hill the fiddler and Tom Clough the piper? And, of course, those temperamental pipe chanters.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: shepherdlass
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 12:00 PM

PS Little Robyn - the Northumbrian pipes were called Northumberland pipes for most of the 19th century and they were still fighting about it at the start of the present Northumbrian Pipers Society.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 12:53 PM

We can tell the difference between jigs, reels and hornpipes. Although massive crossovers exist, English Irish and Scottish tunes do sound different. This may be due to instrumentation and current fashions in playing.

Northumbrian tunes also sound different. I think we were on to something when Paul said:

'A lot of Northumbrian tunes reflect the limitations of the Northumbrian smallpipes. Having a cylindrical bore, they can't be overblown to get the octave, so the range is extended above and below the basic 7 hole compass using keys. The way these keys fall under the piper's fingers shape the tunes, and your fiddle/ whistle/ flute won't have easy intervals in the same place.'

Is this about right?

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 01:13 PM

The soldiers manning the walls would have sung about women, how bloody cold it was, what bastards they were led by, how far from home, going on a spree, that sort of thing.
No way of proving it, but conceivably.....

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 01:30 PM

Conceivably? Quite a bit of that I bet!

One of the joys of this forum is the way posts come in creating great (I cannot spell this) non-sequetters.

There's me wittering on about the nature of smallpipes and tunes and Le Scaramouche appears to respond with total clarity!

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: 8_Pints
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 03:02 PM

Not only that, but didn't the Romans also have bagpipes?

Bob

PS I have been told that 'Buttered Peas' is actually a Welsh tune!

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 05:41 PM

Everyone had bagpipes once. Biblical dulcimer, BTW, is thought by some to reffer to pipes.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian tunes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 03:45 AM

My point entirely