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Lyr Req: Freedom Isn't Free

Anne Lee 30 Jan 99 - 04:53 PM
Joe Offer 30 Jan 99 - 05:25 PM
Joe Offer 30 Jan 99 - 06:59 PM
Anne Lee 31 Jan 99 - 07:52 AM
Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca 31 Jan 99 - 12:38 PM
rich r 31 Jan 99 - 12:55 PM
rick fielding 31 Jan 99 - 01:02 PM
Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca 31 Jan 99 - 01:14 PM
Art Thieme 31 Jan 99 - 01:19 PM
Anne Lee 31 Jan 99 - 02:00 PM
catspaw49 01 Feb 99 - 09:58 AM
rick fielding 01 Feb 99 - 11:37 AM
Joe Offer 01 Feb 99 - 05:37 PM
Sandy Paton 01 Feb 99 - 05:56 PM
Joe Offer 01 Feb 99 - 06:04 PM
01 Feb 99 - 06:12 PM
Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca 01 Feb 99 - 07:31 PM
01 Feb 99 - 07:31 PM
01 Feb 99 - 09:27 PM
Sheye 02 Feb 99 - 05:38 PM
Laurel 02 Feb 99 - 05:53 PM
rick fielding 02 Feb 99 - 06:27 PM
Anne Lee 04 Feb 99 - 09:33 PM
Joe Offer 04 Feb 99 - 10:00 PM
Anne Lee 04 Feb 99 - 10:14 PM
catspaw49 04 Feb 99 - 11:04 PM
Sandy Paton 05 Feb 99 - 12:51 AM
Lonesome EJ 05 Feb 99 - 01:38 AM
Lonesome EJ 05 Feb 99 - 01:52 AM
Steve Parkes 05 Feb 99 - 03:45 AM
Joe Offer 05 Feb 99 - 04:31 AM
Laurel 05 Feb 99 - 07:49 AM
catspaw49 05 Feb 99 - 08:04 AM
Roger in Baltimore 05 Feb 99 - 07:35 PM
dick greenhaus 06 Feb 99 - 10:46 AM
Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca 06 Feb 99 - 04:07 PM
Hatzie 07 Feb 99 - 04:31 AM
Hatzie 07 Feb 99 - 05:08 AM
Joe Offer 07 Feb 99 - 05:15 AM
Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca 07 Feb 99 - 07:43 PM
Sandy Paton 07 Feb 99 - 08:33 PM
rich r 07 Feb 99 - 09:56 PM
Lonesome EJ 08 Feb 99 - 12:51 AM
rick fielding 08 Feb 99 - 12:54 AM
Steve Parkes 08 Feb 99 - 03:33 AM
Joe Offer 08 Feb 99 - 02:06 PM
Pete M 08 Feb 99 - 03:32 PM
Sandy Paton 08 Feb 99 - 03:41 PM
Steve Parkes 09 Feb 99 - 03:36 AM
Jon Bartlett 10 Feb 99 - 06:48 PM
Pete M 10 Feb 99 - 07:57 PM
Anne Lee 10 Feb 99 - 10:27 PM
Pete M 10 Feb 99 - 11:36 PM
katlaughing 11 Feb 99 - 01:05 AM
Steve Parkes 11 Feb 99 - 03:29 AM
Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca 13 Feb 99 - 04:30 PM
Lonesome EJ 13 Feb 99 - 06:14 PM
Steve Parkes 15 Feb 99 - 03:49 AM
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Subject: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Anne Lee
Date: 30 Jan 99 - 04:53 PM

I'm not sure where to find the song (ballad) from the late 60's or early 70's...The words..."Freedom isn't free(2x), you gotta pay the price, you gotta sacrifice for your liberty..." This is the chorus.. Can anyone help?

Also looking for the song with the words"...down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico..."

Thanks, Anne Lee


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 99 - 05:25 PM

Hi, Anne Lee - I've got Paul & Ralph Colwell's "Freedom Isn't Free" in an "Up With People" songbook. Can't say I like songs of the jingoistic variety, since it seems that songs about "freedom" often imply the restriction of the freedoms of others. I'll post it later unless somebody beats me to it. Watch this space.
If you put [mississippi to the gulf] in square brackets in the database search box so it searches for an exact phrase, you'll find Jimmy Driftwood's BATTLE OF NEW ORLEANS (or you can be lazy and click here).
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: Lyr Add: FREEDOM ISN'T FREE (Paul & Ralph Colwell)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 99 - 06:59 PM

Ah, I'll probably get a phone call from Gene Graham about my seditious comments in the message above (grin). For my penance, I'll post the lyrics.

FREEDOM ISN'T FREE
Words by Paul Colwell
Music by Paul and Ralph Colwell (ASCAP)
©1964 and 1965 by Moral Re-Armament, Inc.


Freedom is a word often heard today,
but if you want to keep it there's a price to pay,
Each generation must win it anew,
'Cause it's not something handed down to you.
CHORUS:
Freedom isn't free!
Freedom isn't free!
You go to pay a price,
You got to sacrifice,
For your liberty.
There was a general by the name of George,
With a small band of men at Valley Forge,
Left the comfort of home for the snow and ice,
They won independence 'cause they paid the price.
CHORUS

In ancient Rome they felt so free,
Doing what comes natch'rally,
They were so busy being merry ones,
That they didn't notice the barbarians!
CHORUS

From Vietnam to Alamein
Our fighting men will have died in vain,
If we go on with our comfort and ease,
Doing exactly as we dang well please!


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Subject: RE:Freedom Isn't Free
From: Anne Lee
Date: 31 Jan 99 - 07:52 AM

Thanks, Joe.

Right after I left a thread, I did a search and found the Battle Of New Orleans. Which version is the one we remember from the radio? Is is Johnny Hortons?

Thank you for the lyrics...I have to agree with you, but the song came flooding back when my fourth graders had the word "freedom" as a spelling wording last week.

I'm excited to find such a website.

Anne Lee


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca
Date: 31 Jan 99 - 12:38 PM

I've often wondered if the English wrote a song about burning Washington.


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: rich r
Date: 31 Jan 99 - 12:55 PM

George or the city???

rich r


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: rick fielding
Date: 31 Jan 99 - 01:02 PM

I know I should not be telling this, but it's been on my conscience for almost 30 years, and it's probably the devil making me do it.

I was on tour in The Maritimes and was staying with a VERY religious(fundamentalist Christian) family for a couple of days. They were friends of my bass player and I tried to be very polite and courteous. Certainly I wasn't going to tell them that back home I was one of those Godless, atheistic, protestin' kind of guys. Well, one day I was looking through their record collection and was enjoying immensely listening to their old-time gospel records (I know, I know...but it's a dichotomy common to many folkies) when I came upon "Up With People"! I was immediately impressed by the fact that John Wayne,Pat Boone, and Walt Disney had their pictures on the back and were recommending it so highly. The fact that the Schick razor company, who proudly declared their support for the John Birch Society, financed the album, clinched my decision to resort to crime. I stole (or perhaps liberated) the album, so that future generations of my friends could enjoy such songs as: "Freedom isn't Free", "What Colour is God's Skin", "Which Way, America", and my all time favourite: "You Can't Live Crooked, and Think Straight"! I officially apologise, but if you really want to know why an otherwise honest person would do such a thing...you must find that album and listen to it!


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca
Date: 31 Jan 99 - 01:14 PM

I'm sure they'd have loved to burn the man, had they been able to get their hands on him. The British burned the city of Washington during the War of 1812 in retaliation for the Americans burning York (Toronto). (Canada from time to time still demands the return of a wooden lion they stole at the time.) They also burned Buffalo in retaliation for the Americans burning some farms on the Canadian side. although the poor people of Buffalo had nothing to do with such antics. There seems to have been a fair amount of burning back and forth at the time.

Before they burned the White House some of the British officers ate the dinner which had been prepared for the President and his wife. (I have been told, but don't know if it is true, that the reason the White House is white is because they painted it to cover up the scorch marks.) It was on this same expedition that the British unsuccessfully attacked a fort and you got the words to The Star Spangled Banner.

The Americans had their revenge for the British burning Washington because it was essentially this same force which attacked New Orleans, the foolish British general ordering a direct assault on the entrenched American positions. At one point in the battle he had the chance to outflank the Americans and failed to take advantage of the situation, and Old Hickory didn't give him a second chance. Incidently, the war was concluded by then due to a peace treaty signed in Belgium, but no-one got word of it in time.


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Art Thieme
Date: 31 Jan 99 - 01:19 PM

An old frind of mine used to say that there is enough freedom in our system (USA) to terrify an anarchist.

Art


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Anne Lee
Date: 31 Jan 99 - 02:00 PM

Dear Rick Fielding:

Great story! Would Love to get a copy of the album. I sung "What Color is God's Skin?" in Jr. Choir. Brought back wonderful memories.

Thanks,

Anne Lee


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 09:58 AM

"The people will fancy an appearance of freedom; Illusion will be their native land."...Jacques Ellul

catspaw


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: rick fielding
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 11:37 AM

Dear Anne Lee. Although I still have my purloined copy of "Up with People", (by the way, I sure hope the statute of limitations has run it's course for my crime) it is so scratched as to be virtually unplayable, so I doubt if I could make you a listenable copy. Lots of people keep their recordings in better condition, so you should be able to find one if you persevere. As an incentive it may be one of the only albums in existance to feature the "melodica". Remember the little keyboard that was played by blowing into it?


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 05:37 PM

Anne Lee, it was Jimmy Driftwood who wrote "Battle of New Orleans" in 1957. Johnny Horton recorded it, and that recording hit #1 on the charts.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 05:56 PM

Special message for TJaques:

Tim: If we agree to give you the damned fort, will you promise to take "The Star Spangled Banner" as well? I'd even be willing to throw in Baltimore, but then we'd lose Roger! Too great a price to pay.

Sandy (who once was given a bad time on the Baltimore waterfront, but that was long before gentrification)


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 06:04 PM

Watch out for that Jaques fellow. I knew he was a Royalist.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From:
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 06:12 PM

My significant other, Rika Ruebsaat, is writing a thesis on the words of songs taught in BC schools since 1900. This "Freedom Isn't Free" song (though only two verses) turned up in one of the texts, "This is Music for Today (Canadian Edition) 7." (1971)I've been entering in our big database. I figured they put it in to counteract the dreadful communistic, anarchistic, black-dwarf-lesbian-loving effect of the previous song in the book, "Where Have All The Flowers Gone?" by the well-known Peter (sic) Seeger.


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 07:31 PM

Although it is harder to sing, I'd take Star Spangled Banner as a song over Oh, Canada any day. The second verse of Oh, Canada is better than the first, but no-one ever sings the full version. The only man who could sing Oh Canada with any passion was the guy who used to sing the anthems at the Habs games, and even then it sounded better only because it was in French.

As a tune, I've always prefered The Maple Leaf Forever.It has a nice optimistic air to it, rather than plodding like Oh, Canada. However the present lyrics are very old-style imperialist, what with dauntless Wolfe sticking it to the French and planting firm Brittania's flag and all that, although I suppose he did just that. I remember one time Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau visited Washington DC and the marine band unwittingly serenaded him with it. He must have been fuming.


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From:
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 07:31 PM

To Sandy! You were given a bad time on the waterfront? How? When? Why? Like Terry Mulloy in Bud Shulberg's "On the Waterfront" Could you have been a contender? Sharon Ct. sure ain't Palookaville!


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From:
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 09:27 PM

To Rita's significant other:

What a discovery! Any way to find a recording or a way to send the notes?

Rick F.---Thanks for your help and effort. I think I'll try the local radio stations.

Joe O.---Thanks for Driftwood info, already have Horton's cd coming in the mail

What a helpful bunch you folkies are!


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Sheye
Date: 02 Feb 99 - 05:38 PM

Oh, Canada! was written by an aging group of CRTC gents who were made to sit in a stark and dim room until they reached consensus on the words. In true Canadian style, they mumbled alot and desperately grasped at anything that could not be misinterpreted as aggressive in any way.

We never finish singing the song because:

a) Although we are force fed every morning from k through 12, the speakers crackle and we can't really make out what is being broadcast through the school. Could be demonic codes played forward for all we know.

b) We aren't really sure which are the old words and which are the new words, so we fade away.

c) We're always attempting to spit on queue, just like our hockey heroes. (We have heroes.)

d) We get bored and drift away.

It starts the way it does because rise and jab our neighbour, who turns, puzzled, realizes what's going on and joins in, "oh!....Canadaaaaaaa...."

Seriously, it's a great country with a boring anthem.

Sheye


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Laurel
Date: 02 Feb 99 - 05:53 PM

Rick Fielding- I have two melodicas!

Laurel


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: rick fielding
Date: 02 Feb 99 - 06:27 PM

Laurel, where have you been all my life? Let's make an album!


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Anne Lee
Date: 04 Feb 99 - 09:33 PM

Rick F:

Yes,I do remember the melodica. Sorry, I forgot to mention it.

Laurel - How did you become interested in melodicas? By the way, good point on schools and folk music. Reassuring to know that their are youth who know, enjoy and what quality.

Joe Offer---how come you know so much about music? You always have great helps.


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Feb 99 - 10:00 PM

For those of us who weren't quite sure what a melodica might be, click here.

Anne Lee - the music I didn't learn from the nuns, I learned from the Web. Actually, though, I don't know all that much about music. I can sing pretty well, but I know about half as much about music as a lot of the people here. I feel humbled in the presence of many of the people I've met here. I'm surprised that they're so nice to me. I do have very good research skills because I work as an investigator. If there's information to be found, I often can find it.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Anne Lee
Date: 04 Feb 99 - 10:14 PM

Joe,

Great! I have an ex how owers me $5k. Is it worth my time to "free" him from his "sacrifice" for his "liberty"? Had to get the thread title back in somewhere.

Really... he lives in the Placerville area...you are in the Sacramento area, are you not? Or do I have you mixed up with someone else?

Anne Lee


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Feb 99 - 11:04 PM

Freedom is not free...it comes with a price. Rick Fielding is about to pay the ultimate price as I'm holding him at groundhog point til he starts a thread titled "Short Time Instrument Disasters" with his first post being the tale of Pedro. Please help me turn loose this disgustin' blunt end of said groundhog and get on his case now!!!

Seriously, Laurel, I've been reading you on several threads and you are like dawn mist on an upholler' spring mornin'.

catspaw


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 05 Feb 99 - 12:51 AM

Early 50s. Hitchhiking back toward New York after spending some time cutting brush along the Pamunkey River in Virginia. Passed through Baltimore, down by the waterfront, because that's where my ride had let me out. Thought I might wash a few dishes in a waterfront diner to get a meal and a few bucks. Met a handful of young toughs who didn't like my general appearance and thought to change it some. Guess I looked like a stranger on their turf. Fortunately, a couple of stevedore stalwarts decided to take my side in the discussion. All ended well, but my memories of Baltimore could be more pleasant.

Sharon, CT, is where I live, not where I come from. I was conceived in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, and born in Jacksonville, FL, son of an itinerant government Coast and Geodetic Surveyor. In my youth I lived in Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, Washington (DC), New York, New Hampshire, Maine, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Washington (state), Hawaii, and Kansas. Met my wife in California, lived with her in England, Illinois, Indiana, Colorado, Vermont and, now, Connecticut. Sharon may not be Palookaville, but it ain't so bad. The Buckleys have left the premises since we arrived, so my urge to alter the image of the place has grown less intense of late.

Well, someone did ask, and that's about as brief as I can make it.

Sandy


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 05 Feb 99 - 01:38 AM

Ann Lee....if I'm not mistaken,you're talking about another song than the Jimmy Driftwood "Battle of New Orleans"?There was a song on top 40 radio in the mid 60s that went like Come on everybody take a trip with me Down the Mississippi down to New Orleans They got Spanish Moss hangin from a big oak tree Down the Mississippi, down to New Orleans and thats the only verse I remember, but it had kind of a doo-wop beat with some chanting"I said a-heyyyy hey hey hey Yeah!"in the bridge. That the one?LEJ


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 05 Feb 99 - 01:52 AM

Duh...after posting that,went back and read your original post,Ann.Sorry bout the completely irrelevant comment above.(is my face red)LEJ


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 05 Feb 99 - 03:45 AM

Lonnie Donegan recorde "The battle of New Orleans" in England in the fifties, although fortunately I don't remember it. He was censured for being unpatriotic, apparently

I used to be able to sing "the star-spangled banner" tune all the way through; I don't know if I still can - ther's nt much call for it over here. I often think a good way of annoying foreigners in a way that they can't object to would be to learn all the verses of their national anthem, and whenever you hear it sung, get up and join in, and insist on singing all the other verses nobody knows!

The Marseillaise is a good one, I think - properly bloodthirsty, with none of that namby-pamby "confound their politics, frustrate their navish tricks" kind of thing.

Steve


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Feb 99 - 04:31 AM

Gee, Lonesome EJ, now you got me wondering about the song you're talking about. I'm guessing it's New Christy Minstrels - "Mighty Mississippi," if I recall correctly. Maybe not.....
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Laurel
Date: 05 Feb 99 - 07:49 AM

Rick-

I recently aqquired them from my grandparents house in Sioux Falls. They were my mom's when she was little.

Laurel


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Feb 99 - 08:04 AM

Laurel...two things

1. I seem to remember Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys playing one several times. If you get VH1, there is a Beach Boys special running sometimes called, I think, "Endless Harmony" and you can see him there with one.

2. Check out my post before this one and you'll see that Rick is in serious trouble unless he starts a thread. YOU get on his case too. I'm holding him at groundhog point. There's also a message for you on that post above.

catspaw


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Subject: Lyr Add: MARYLAND, MY MARYLAND
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 05 Feb 99 - 07:35 PM

Sandy,

I'm late coming to this thread, but thank you for the brief kind words. The docks used to be "the docks" in Baltimore and I suspect that is where you were dropped off. The shipping piers and the industry have been torn down and we now have "The Inner Harbor". It is a tourist attraction and probably one of the safest areas in town. Y'all come back some day.

As we discuss national anthems it leaves me an opening to offer the Maryland State song. The Maryland web site states:

"The nine-stanza poem, "Maryland, My Maryland," was written by James Ryder Randall in 1861. A native of Maryland, Randall was teaching in Louisiana in the early days of the Civil War, and he was outraged at the news of Union troops being marched through Baltimore. The poem articulated Randall's Confederate sympathies. Set to the traditional tune of "Lauriger Horatius" ("O, Tannenbaum"), the song achieved wide popularity in Maryland and throughout the South.

"Maryland, My Maryland" was adopted as the State song in 1939 (Chapter 451, Acts of 1939; Code State Government Article, sec. 13-307).

I continue to be baffled that the following song would be selected to represent this "border state" in the year 1939 or that no one has risen up to strike it for it's anti-Union sympathies. Maryland is truly the northernmost southern state in many ways. It is a rare Marylander who knows the origins of the song or the despot to which it refers. Nice tune though. And remember my mantra, music is powerful thought control, it can get you to sing words which you do not believe.

The despot's heel is on thy shore, Maryland! My Maryland!
His torch is at thy temple door, Maryland! My Maryland!
Avenge the patriotic gore,
That flecked the streets of Baltimore,
And be the battle queen of yore, Maryland! My Maryland!

Hark to an exiled son's appeal, Maryland! My Maryland!
My mother State! to thee I kneel, Maryland! My Maryland!
For life and death, for woe and weal,
Thy peerless chivalry reveal,
And gird they beauteous limbs with steel, Maryland! My Maryland!

Thou wilt not cower in the dust, Maryland! My Maryland!
Thy beaming sword shall never rust, Maryland! My Maryland!
Remember Carroll's sacred trust,
Remember Howard's warlike thrust,
And all they slumberers with the just, Maryland! My Maryland!

Come! 'tis the red dawn of the day, Maryland! My Maryland!
Come with thy panoplied array, Maryland! My Maryland!
With Ringgold's spirit for the fray,
With Watson's blood at Monterey,
With fearless Lowe and dashing May, Maryland! My Maryland!

Come! for thy shield is bright and strong, Maryland! My Maryland!
Come! for thy dalliance does thee wrong, Maryland! My Maryland!
Come to thine own heroic throng,
Stalking with Liberty along,
And chaunt thy dauntless slogan song, Maryland! My Maryland!

Dear Mother! burst the tyrant's chain, Maryland! My Maryland!
Virginia should not call in vain, Maryland! My Maryland!
She meets her sisters on the plain,
"Sic semper!" 'tis the proud refrain,
That baffles minions back again, Maryland! My Maryland!

I see the blush upon thy cheek, Maryland! My Maryland!
For thou wast ever bravely meek, Maryland! My Maryland!
But lo! there surges forth a shriek,
From hill to fill, from creek to creek.
Potomac calls to Chesapeake, Maryland! My Maryland!

Thou wilt not yield the vandal toll, Maryland! My Maryland!
Thou wilt not crook to his control, Maryland! My Maryland!
Better the fire upon thee roll,
Better the blade, the shot, the bowl,
Than crucifixion of the soul, Maryland! My Maryland!

I hear the distant thunder-hum, Maryland! My Maryland!
The Old Line's bugle, fife, and drum, Maryland! My Maryland!
She is not dead, nor deaf, nor dumb,
Huzza! she spurns the Northern scum!
She breathes! she burns! she'll come! she'll come! Maryland! My Maryland!

Roger in Baltimore


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Feb 99 - 10:46 AM

I always thought Kristofferson had the final word on the subject-

Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose Nothin' ain't worth nothin', but it's free....



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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca
Date: 06 Feb 99 - 04:07 PM

Anne Lee -- five grand might be cheap at the price if it gets rid of someone you don't want around and keeps them away.

The discussion of freedom brings us around once again to the discussion that came up before. Can't recall whether it was here or on one of the Usenet groups -- why were there so few folk songs to come out of WWII? The only tunes of that era of which I can think are those of the big band or jazz singers.


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Hatzie
Date: 07 Feb 99 - 04:31 AM

<>

I always thought that would be something interesting to throw into the conversation when people start talking about the Eastern religions and the concept of being free by renouncing all worldly desires (presumably including any desire to sing or listen). If you don't want nothin' then you're free, but I'm not sure I want to set out to be quite as free as that. I may not have much, but that isn't the plan.

Maybe a little like Bob Dylan saying "I got nothin' Ma, to live up to."


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Hatzie
Date: 07 Feb 99 - 05:08 AM

[The discussion of freedom brings us around once again to the discussion that came up before. Can't recall whether it was here or on one of the Usenet groups -- why were there so few folk songs to come out of WWII? The only tunes of that era of which I can think are those of the big band or jazz singers.]

A little more Dylan:

This song wasn't written in Tin Pan Alley, that's where most of the folk songs come from now, this song was written somewhere in the United States.

I never noticed, but now that you mention it, we have songs from lots of other wars but not that one, as far as I know, and it's hard to see why. Maybe there was a general loss of interest in the folk tradition for just a short period around that time, before the revival of the 50's and 60's and thereafter. I suppose that's not much of an explanation, just another observation. Here's another one: we are looking at this as Americans (US and Canadians) and our people fought in the war but we did not see it in our own cities etc. Maybe the Germans, or the French, or the Russians might have songs about that time?

BTW, I found this site looking for the words to "Northwest Passage," which I have heard on the radio a couple of times by Stan Rogers. I notice there are some Canadians in this thread, maybe they can help? And maybe if I spring for $15 or so and buy the CD it will have words on the liner?

And there used to be a radio station from Canada that I could get here in the lower 48, and I used to enjoy listening to O Canada at mignight. I even thought they had a great recording of God Save the Queen. Maybe it's easier to enjoy other people's national songs, as I don't know the countries well enough to find fault with them. A lot of USA citizens (Canadians note that I did not make the mistake of saying Americans )say they don't like our national anthem, and claim that their problem is musical, when actually it is probably political. I'm not a professional musician, and I can sing it, so I don't see what the big problem is.

I learned a little about the country of some of my ancestors when I worked in Amherstburg in the 1960's. One of the most interesting comments I can remember about war - we had a little problem going in Asia at the time - came from a gentleman who happened to be sitting next to me in a restaurant; he said that when he was a boy, he used to hear about what terrible people the Boers were (he might as well have said the Carthaginians or the Assyrians and it would have sounded about the same to me, being about 22 years old at the time, so I really noticed)and eventually he found out that they weren't really all that much different from the rest of us. The problem with not going to the war, OTOH, is that if one side loses, a lot of people from that side can end up in concentration camps. Actually, in this particularly bloody century, far more people have been killed by their own governments than by their external enemies, so we have to keep watch of them, too. We have been fortunate not to have had much trouble of that kind in the US or Canada, at least in the 20th century, but we're not immune entirely or permanently. It seems to me that whatever we might want to do, there is somebody right there waiting to tell us that it's bad and we shouldn't do it, and to try to pass a law to put us in jail right now if we don't stop.

Well, enough of that, time to go back to singing. [G] again

Moi aussi, je me souviens. Au revoir pour maintenant. RWH


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Feb 99 - 05:15 AM

Welcome ot the Mudcat Cafe, Hatzie. You can find songs in our database by using the search box in the upper-right corner of most pages - put [northwest passage] in square brackets so the database will search for that exact phrase - or you can be lazy thith time and click here.
Oh, by the way - be careful how you use angle brackets here - anything enclosed by them is viewed as an HTML command an is invisible. I changed your angle brackets to square on the Dylan quote above.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca
Date: 07 Feb 99 - 07:43 PM

You can order both the CD Northwest Passage and the Stan Rogers songbook from http://www.bpm.on.ca with which I have no connection except for purchasing CD's from them.

WWII -- The British had bombs dropped on their heads too, but not too many folksongs in English come to mind. Maybe "Banks of Sicily."


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 07 Feb 99 - 08:33 PM

MacColl's "D-Day Dodgers" may qualify, along with Hamish Henderson's "Banks of Sicily."

Roger: I had no idea your state songs was so gruesome. If Georgia could finally vote to get rid of the Confederate banner flying over their state capitol, maybe you could organize a similar effort in Maryland, and get rid of that horror. Write some new words to it, or something!

I've never returned to admire the gentrified waterfront. I'd rather just loop around Baltimore (I prefer the Eastern alternative). This shouldn't hurt your feelings, as I realize that you don't really live there, just near there.

But then, I don't like Boston either, which may inflame many other Mudcatters. I've lived too many years in the relative peace and quiet of the countryside, I guess. No more city driving for me, unless it's absolutely unavoidable. In Sharon, three cars in a row is a traffic jam. I see more deer and wild turkeys on the roads up here than I do other vehicles. I like it that way.

Sandy


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: rich r
Date: 07 Feb 99 - 09:56 PM

Now that all the nuclear ICBMs have been pulled out of their silos and the big B-52s have been removed from Grand Forks Air Base, I am no longer certain that North Dakota is the world's third largest nuclear power. This raises the very serious threat that royalist folk like Tim (that French looking name doesn't fool me) and his ilk are going to come streaming up the Red River Valley right into the American heartland. The words "O Canada, we stand on guard for thee" now have a totally different meaning when sung at a Fargo-Moorhead Redhawks baseball team is hosting the Winnepeg Goldeyes or the Thunder Bay Whiskey Jacks. He He

rich r


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 08 Feb 99 - 12:51 AM

Although I disagree with Sandy's sentiments regarding the Confederate battle flag(ie.a racist symbol-It certainly has been misused in that manner,but that doesn't change the fact that many brave men died fighting beneath it,and it is a part of the historic heritage of many southern states-no one is suggesting the stars and stripes be banned because it was used as a tool of repression in the Indian Wars)BE THAT AS IT MAY...I was amazed by the lyric to "Maryland,My Maryland".I knew that in 1862, when Lee invaded Maryland, the Army of Virginia sang the song as they marched through the countryside toward Antietam.However, it is quite amazing that the Civil War era lyric was adopted as is.Phrases like "Virginia should not call in vain" and "Potomac calls to Chesapeake" and especially"she spurns the northern scum"certainly defy usage in any other context.


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: rick fielding
Date: 08 Feb 99 - 12:54 AM

Seem to recall having a Burl Ives recording about "Rodger Young". Believe it was about WW2. I think that by that war most folks had radios, went to the movies, had telephones etc. All that would have to put some kind of damper on 1940s folkie writing. I think Woody Guthrie (and the Almanacs) probably wrote more WW2 songs than anybody. A rough guess would be about 20. Leadbelly also had a couple. (Red cross Store, and Hitler Song) Another that comes to mind is "I come and Stand at Every Door". I guess the one that has been sung the most has to be "Sinking of the Reuben James".


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 08 Feb 99 - 03:33 AM

I didn't know McColl wrote "D-Day Dodgers". He did write "The Second Front Song", but I think singing it is more likely to provoke WWIII than commemorate WWII!

Steve


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 99 - 02:06 PM

Smithsonian Folkways has a fascinating CD out called What's Why We're Marching: World War II and the American Folk Song Movement. A number of the songs are in the database, and I've made links to them. Others are parodies of songs in the database - "Looking for a Home" is "Boll Weevil," for instance; and many of the others are obvious from the title. Let's see if I can get fancy and paste in the track listing:

01. Freedom Road - Josh White
02. Talking Sailor - Woody Guthrie
03. BALLAD OF OCTOBER 16 - Almanac Singers, Pete Seeger
04. BILLY BOY - Almanac Singers, Josh White
05. PLOW UNDER - Almanac Singers, Pete Seeger
06. I'm Gonna Put My Name Down - Tom Glazer
07. What Are We Waiting On (What Are We Waiting For) - Woody Guthrie
08. Citizen C.I.O. - Union Boys, Tom Glazer, Josh White
09. THE SINKING OF THE REUBEN JAMES - Woody Guthrie
10. You Better Get Ready - Union Boys, Burl Ives
11. If You Want To Do Your Part - Lead Belly
12. Move Into Germany - Union Boys, Sonny Terry, Brownie McGhee
13. So Long It's Been Good To Know You (Dusty Old... - Woody Guthrie

14. Martins And Coys - Union Boys
15. Mr. Hitler - Lead Belly
16. Sally Don't You Grieve - Woody Guthrie, Cisco Houston
17. Jimmy Longhi Story - Vincent 'Jimmy' Longhi
18. When The Yanks Go Marching In - Woody Guthrie, Cisco Houston, Sonny Terry
19. ROUND HITLER'S GRAVE - Almanac Singers
20. The Fuhrer - Josh White
21. Miss Pavlichencko - Woody Guthrie
22. National Defense Blues - Lead Belly, Terry, McGhee, Dupree
23. GEE, MA, I WANT TO GO HOME - Lead Belly
24. Looking For A Home - Pete Seeger
25. Now That It's All Over - Pete Seeger


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Pete M
Date: 08 Feb 99 - 03:32 PM

I think Rick is probably right about the main reasons for the comparative lack of songs to come out of WWII that have been absorbed into the folk tradition. I suspect that another may be that with the wide range of appropriate songs from WWI still fresh in their minds, there was not the same pressure to vent feelings with new creations.

The ones that I can recall are: (I won't try and emulate Joe with columns!)

THE D-DAY DODGERS - Hamish Henderson (NOT MacColl)
51st Highland Div farewell to Sicily - Hamish Henderson here? here???
BLOODY ORKNEY - reputedly written as a poem by the Capt Blair in the song, and set to music by Ian Campbell
The Kreigie ballad - Robert Garioch
Reuben James - Guthrie

There are several others which were written during the war but which to my knowledge have not gained the same popularity eg The Second front song - MacColl.

As Steve notes, our ahem allies were probably less popular than the Wehrmacht. One of the features of life in the Navy in WWII was "fleet canteens" These were at major Naval bases and were often the only place where Jack could spend his run ashore, they often had 1500 - 2000 men in at a time. Occasionally I understand, the crew of a Yankee ship would be in and make the mistake of opening their mouths - then the real fighting would start!

Pete M


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 08 Feb 99 - 03:41 PM

I'm not sure that MacColl wrote "D Day Dodgers," but he's the one I first heard sing it.

Many brave men may have fallen under that flag, Lonesome, but for a large part of our population it stands, in these latter days, as an emblem of prejudice and segregation. Until it no longer has unpleasant associations for so many, I will oppose flying it over public buildings such as state capitols. Display it with reverence above the graves of the sacrificed, if you will, but don't flaunt it in the face of those for whom its appearance causes pain.

Sandy


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 09 Feb 99 - 03:36 AM

Re. "D-Day dodgers", my friend's father was one, and he knew the song in a slightly different form. That might just have been a problem remembering, of course. He told me that the trains carrying the troops were festooned with inflated condoms and banners saying "Lady Astor's boys" and the like. (You'll remember Lady Astor was a very, er, prominent former American turned British Member of Parliament.)

I heard a story of a USAF or USAAF wartime outfit that flew in to Britain from one of the Southern States to find the locals had put up banners saying "Welcome Yanks" - they nearly turned around and flew straight back!

I dare say the ... let's call it friendly rivalry ... between the UK and the US deserves a thread to itself; maybe even England and the rest of the world. But I've no intention of being thought unpatriotic, not to mention upsetting all my new friends on the 'Cat, so I'll let someone else start it. Personally, I think its' very inefficient for Brits to hate Americans, when the French are now only a train ride away.

Steve


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 10 Feb 99 - 06:48 PM

re: a Post 01 Feb 6.12 pm - I am the nameless 'Rika's significant other" - don't know why the "from" box is empty. As to "D-Day Dodgers", it was constructed (if I remember correctly) by Hamish Henderson (Capt.?) from lines he had heard - I think he "regularized" it (if that's the word) and I think MacColl was certainly one of the first to sing it (along with his "Browned Off", a re-working either of the original or of Joe Hill's parody ("Stung Right")). I had the first printing of it in my hands a few years back, but I'm damned if I can think of its title.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE KRIEGIE BALLAD
From: Pete M
Date: 10 Feb 99 - 07:57 PM

Thanks for adding the links to the DT Joe. The first "here" against the 51st farewell is as written. The second seems to be an Anglicised? Americanised? version.

The version of Bloody Orkney in the DT is as sung by Ian Campbell, with his last stanza. (It should read "roll on demob.." by the way Dick)

The original, taken from a book of war poetry whose title escapes me and I can't find at the moment, is:

Capt. Hamish bloody Blair
Doesnae live here any mair
And no one seems to Bloody care
In Bloody Orkney.

As the Kreigie Ballad doesn't appear to be in the DT I've added it below.

"The Kriegie ballad"

Robert Garioch
Tune: Botany Bay


Yes this is the place we were took Sir,
And landed right into the bag
Right outside the town of Tobruk, Sir,
So now for some bloody stalag.

ChorusWith a toora-lie, oora-lie addy,
With a toora-lie oora-lie ay,
With attora-lie oora-lie addy,
Here's hoping we're not here to stay!

There was plenty of water in Derna
But that camp was not very well kept
For either you slept in the piss-hole
Or pissed in the place where you slept

Chorus

And then we went on to Benghazi
We had plenty of room, what a treat!
But I wish that the guard was a Nazi
He might find us something to eat

Chorus

And then we went on to Brindisi,
With free melons in fields on the way
Parades there were quite free and easy
Except that they went on all day

Chorus

The sun it grew hotter and hotter
The shit trench was streaked red and brown
The stew was like maiden's water
With gnat's piss to wash it all down

Chorus

With hunger were nearly demented
You can see it at once by our looks
The only ones really contented
Are the greasy fat bastards of cooks

Chorus

And now it was late in the autumn
And our clothes they were only a farce
For torn KD shorts with no bottom,
Send a hell of a draught up your arse.

Chorus

At Musso's show camp at Vetrella,
They gave us beds, blankets and sheets,
They've even got chains in the shit house,
But still they had no bloody seats.

Chorus

We were promised a treat for our Christmas,
Of thick pasta-shoota, all hot,
But some how the cooks got a transfer,
And shot out of sight with the lot.

Chorus

So somewhere they wish us good wishes,
That we're not all feeling too queer,
And while they arte guzzling our pasta,
They wish us a Happy New Year.

Chorus

Pete M


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Anne Lee
Date: 10 Feb 99 - 10:27 PM

Does "Sink the Bismarc" sung by Johnny Horton and "The Ballad of the Green Berets" sung (and written?) by Ssgt. Barry Sadler count as WWII folk?

I know that the Germans (not to bring up ill feeling) sung many folk/marching songs during WWII, but not sure if they were from prior eras.

I tend to agree that due to modern inventions in America, there was a shift away from folk songs during WWII. Shows how quickly a culture can change.

Anne Lee


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Pete M
Date: 10 Feb 99 - 11:36 PM

Good question Anne,

there are undoubtedly a lot more songs written during WWII such as "Browned off" by MacColl and about WWII such as "Dunkirk" by Zetta St Clair, but whetrher they count as WWII folk songs is an open question. I"m fairly confident that those I mentioned were sung during the war and they they gained widespread usage by oral transmission, which is close enough for my definition. Others of course differ in their view as to what constitutes a folk song.

Pete M


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Feb 99 - 01:05 AM

Hey, Joe, that was a great listing. I hadn't thought of "So long it's been good to know you" in quite a few years. I grew up hearing mom and dad sing it.

Funny story about it. Dad got caught out at a drilling rig and was late getting in on Christmas Eve, or so the story goes, I wasn't around, yet. Anyway, the only store open (of course it was pre-Walmart/Kmart, etc.) was a little drug store. He stopped in to get a gift for mom. Bought a little round metal music box with a kind of receptacle in the top, I think for powder.

Anyway, she opened it in the morning and was pleasantly surprised until she wound it up and heard it play "So long it's been good to know you"! Needless to say he was in the dog house for quite awhile and never lived it down!

Kat


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 11 Feb 99 - 03:29 AM

"Bloody Orkney" also goes by the name "Bloody Halkirk" (the polite version, anyway!). I don't know which one is the original.

Steve


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 04:30 PM

"Ballad of the Green Berets" was a Vietnam War era song, IIRC. Certainly I can remember it being played on the radio, and I wasn't around during WWII.

The drunken quarrelling, I have heard, was generally between soldiers and sailors when they met in taverns. Groups of one branch of service would band together, regardless of nationality, to battle their multinational foes of the other service. Then the Military Police would come, beat on everybody, haul them off, and the fun would be over for the night.


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 06:14 PM

One of the most popular songs among all the troops on both sides in the European theatre was "Lily Marlene" which I believe started life as a German Beerhall tune. As to the US/UK rivalry during the war, my father told the story of an English pub where he and a fellow GI went in for a drink. Americans weren't always welcome in these neighborhood pubs, and in this case Dad and his buddy,an Italian from Brooklyn,had to wait til all the Brit soldiers were served before they got their pints.After they finished their beers, the Italian guy shouts to the bartender"Bring us another round faster than the Limies left Dunkirk!"Dad said only the sudden appearance of a gang of mps allowed them to get out with their lives. My father in law, who was in the English Army, says"During the war your fellows had a bit of trouble handling our strong British beer. They often had to be carried into the street to sober up".Right. Or be run over by a lorry,whichever came first.


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Subject: RE: Freedom Isn't Free
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 15 Feb 99 - 03:49 AM

There was much consternation recently when "Friends" had someone say "you'd all be speaking German if it wasn't for us" to an unpeasant Englishman. Inthe interests of maintaining the excellent relations our two countries enjoy, I think I'd better point out - in the most affectionate manner - that if you wittily make remarks of that kind over here you are likely to get a witty smack in the gob by return. (I completely ignore that fact that other nations would all be speaking Gaelic/Welsh/Dutch, etc. if it wasn't for us).

Steve


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