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Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer

DigiTrad:
MAID AND THE PALMER
THE WELL BELOW THE VALLEY


Uncle Frank the Singing Insurance Guy 16 Feb 99 - 11:42 PM
Bruce O. 17 Feb 99 - 12:04 AM
rich r 17 Feb 99 - 12:21 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 17 Feb 99 - 04:29 AM
Ferrara 17 Feb 99 - 08:46 AM
dick greenhaus 17 Feb 99 - 08:50 AM
J. Woodland 17 Feb 99 - 02:19 PM
Bobby Bob, Ellan Vannin 17 Feb 99 - 03:26 PM
Bruce O. 17 Feb 99 - 04:55 PM
rich r 17 Feb 99 - 11:54 PM
Joe Offer 19 Feb 99 - 02:50 PM
Uncle Frank the Singing Insurance Guy 20 Feb 99 - 05:42 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Jan 09 - 05:48 PM
SINSULL 03 Jan 09 - 06:04 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Jan 09 - 08:06 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Jan 09 - 08:15 PM
Nerd 03 Jan 09 - 08:29 PM
Art Thieme 03 Jan 09 - 08:44 PM
dick greenhaus 03 Jan 09 - 09:33 PM
Amos 03 Jan 09 - 10:15 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Jan 09 - 11:40 PM
Malcolm Douglas 03 Jan 09 - 11:56 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Jan 09 - 12:04 AM
Anglo 04 Jan 09 - 02:59 AM
SINSULL 04 Jan 09 - 09:55 AM
SINSULL 04 Jan 09 - 10:09 AM
Amos 04 Jan 09 - 12:26 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Jan 09 - 02:06 PM
Steve Gardham 04 Jan 09 - 07:25 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Jan 09 - 08:04 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Jan 09 - 08:44 PM
Nerd 05 Jan 09 - 02:23 AM
Nerd 05 Jan 09 - 02:25 AM
Ruth Archer 05 Jan 09 - 04:55 AM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 05 Jan 09 - 11:15 AM
SINSULL 05 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM
SINSULL 05 Jan 09 - 11:37 AM
Ruth Archer 05 Jan 09 - 11:42 AM
Roger in Baltimore 05 Jan 09 - 01:15 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Jan 09 - 03:34 PM
SINSULL 05 Jan 09 - 03:44 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM
GUEST,harlowpoet 05 Jan 09 - 04:11 PM
SINSULL 05 Jan 09 - 04:15 PM
GUEST,Joseph de Culver City 05 Jan 09 - 04:16 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Jan 09 - 06:06 PM
PoppaGator 06 Jan 09 - 12:13 PM
Joe Offer 24 Feb 11 - 06:02 AM
GUEST,SteveG 20 Sep 11 - 01:20 PM
IvanB 20 Sep 11 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,SteveG 20 Sep 11 - 05:37 PM
Joe Offer 19 May 17 - 03:25 AM
Joe Offer 19 May 17 - 03:27 AM
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Subject: Lyrics request Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Uncle Frank the Singing Insurance Guy
Date: 16 Feb 99 - 11:42 PM

Two questions really - (1) does anyone know lyrics to this blues/gospel song and (2) is there a gospel counterpart to Digital Traditions Database? Not many Jesus titles in this database, must be policy. No complaints,I love the database, explains rookie user hastily.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics request Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Bruce O.
Date: 17 Feb 99 - 12:04 AM

See Child #21 in DT. The original of it is in the Percy Folio MS.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE WOMAN AT THE WELL
From: rich r
Date: 17 Feb 99 - 12:21 AM

The Woman At The Well (from Rise Up Singing)

Jesus met the woman at the well (3x)
And he told her everything she'd ever done.

He said, "Woman, woman, where is your husband? (3x)
I know everything you've ever done."

She said, "Jesus, Jesus, I ain't got no husband (3x) And you don't know everything I've ever done."

He said, " Woman, woman, you've got 5 husbands (3x)
And the one you have now is not your own.

She said, "This man, this man, he must be a prophet (3x)
He done told me everything I've ever done.

Recordings:

Ian & Sylvia "Four Strong Winds"

Peter Paul & Mary "In concert"

Dave Van Ronk "Sunday Strut"

rich r


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Subject: RE: Lyrics request Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 17 Feb 99 - 04:29 AM

Is this a bluesed-up (yes, bluesed) version of "Jacob's Well"? Evidence of cross-pollination, methinks. Fascinating...


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Subject: RE: Lyrics request Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Ferrara
Date: 17 Feb 99 - 08:46 AM

There is a site called "The Cyber Hymnal,"

http://tch.simplenet.com/Default.htm,

don't know it you'd consider it gospel. Great music though. Lyrics only, I think.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics request Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Feb 99 - 08:50 AM

Uncle FRank- We have no such policy. We include what's submitted.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics request Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: J. Woodland
Date: 17 Feb 99 - 02:19 PM

There is a great version of this song on Dave Van Ronk's album: Sunday Street. It on the Philo record label i think.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics request Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Bobby Bob, Ellan Vannin
Date: 17 Feb 99 - 03:26 PM

A version of the song was collected in the north of Ireland. There's a version which gave its name to the second Planxty album, The Well Below the Valley

Shoh slaynt,

Bobby Bob


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE MAID AND THE PALMER
From: Bruce O.
Date: 17 Feb 99 - 04:55 PM

Here's the Percy Folio MS text of Child #21. Child called it "The maid and the Palmer".

^^ [Lillumwham]

The: maid, shee went to the well to washe,
Lillumwham, Lillumwham!
the mayd shee went to the well to washe,
whatt then? what then?
the maid she went to the well to washe,
dew ffell of[f] her lilly white fleshe;
Grandam boy, Grandam boy, heye!
Leg a derry, Leg a merry, mett, mer, whoope, whir!
driuance, larumben, Grandam boy, heye!

White shee washee, & white shee ronge,
Lillumwham, &c.
white shee hangd o the hazle wand,
Grandam boy, heye, &c.

There came an old Palmer by the way,
Lillumwham, &c.
sais, "god speed thee well thou faire maid!"
Grandam boy, heye, &c.

"Hast either Cupp or can-
Lillumwham, &c.-
to giue an old Palmer drinke therin."
Grandam boy, heye, &c.

sayes, "I haue neither cupp npr Cann-
Lillumwham, &c.-
to giue and old Palmer drinke therin."
Grandam boy, heye, &c.

"But an thy Lemman came from Rome,
Lillumwham, &c.
Cupps & canne thou wold ffind soone,
Grandam boy, heye, &c.

She sware by god & good St. John,
Lillumwham, &c.
Lemman had shee neuer none;
Grandam boy, heye, &c.

Saies, "peace, ffair mayd! you are fforsworne!
Lillumwham, &c.
Nine children you have borne;
Grandam boy, heye, &c.-

"They~ were buryed vnder thy beds head;- [~ three
Lillumwham, &c.-
other three vnder thy brewing leade;
Grandam boy, heye, &c.

Other three on won play greene,
Lillumwham, &c.
Count, maids, & there be 9."
Grandam boy, heye, &c.

"But I hope yu are the good old man-
Lillumwham, &c.-
That all the world beleeues vpon;
Grandam boy, heye, &c.

"Old Palmer, I pray thee, -
Lillumwham, &c.-
Pennaunce that thou wilt giue to me."
Grandam boy, heye, &c.

"Pennance I can giue the none,-
Lillumwham, &c.-
but 7 yeere to be a stepping stone;
Grandam boy, heye, &c.

"Other seauen a clapper in a bell,-
Lillumwham, &c.-
but 7 yeeres to lead an ape in hell. [*
Grandam boy, heye, &c.

When thou hast thy penance done,
Lillumwham, Lillumwham,
when thou hast thy penance done,
whatt then? what then?
when thou hast thy penance done,
then thoust come a mayden home."
Grandam boy, Grandam boy, heye!
Leg a derry, Leg a merry, met, mer, whoope, whirr!
driuance, Larumben, Grandam boy, heye!

....................

* It was a rather common 17th century saying (I hesitate to say that it was a real belief) that unmarried maids were doomed to lead apes in hell.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics request Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: rich r
Date: 17 Feb 99 - 11:54 PM

Child # 21 is certainly an interesting mix of story and nonsense lines although I don't see what the connection is to "Jesus met the Woman at the Well" other than the setting.

rich r


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Subject: RE: Lyrics request Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Feb 99 - 02:50 PM

Hey, Uncle Frank, take a look at Southern Harmony. Also The Gospel Music Archive. Here's The Cyber Hymnal, mentioned above. I think we may have more listed on our links page.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Lyrics request Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Uncle Frank the Singing Insurance Guy
Date: 20 Feb 99 - 05:42 PM

Thanks to all from Uncle Frank! The links are really something. If I recall, my search engine only hit one of them. Funny thing, I shifted gears and went to get lyrics to "Precious Lord, Take My Hand" and couldn't find the hymn. Baptist hymn, black gospel background, written by Thomas Dorsey from Chicago, I know that much, and our Episcopal church choir has sheet music for a goopy 3-4 version of it with just one verse, repeated several times. But I heard it played in 4-4 time on Preservation Jazz Band tape once (is that their name? New Orleans outfit) and it was terrific.

Guess I'll see what the search engine can do with Baptists. Thanks again everybody.


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Subject: Lyr. Add: Well Below the Valley (C. Moore)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:48 PM

Lyr. Add: WELL BELOW THE VALLEY
(Christy Moore; new words; trad.)
Green grows the lily-o
Right among the bushes-o.

A gentleman was passing by
And he asked for a drink as he was dry
At the well below the valley-o
Green grows the lily-o
Right among the bushes-o.

My cup is full up to the brim
And if I were to stoop I might fall in
At the well below the valley-o
Green grows etc.

If your true love was passing by
You'd fill him a drink if he was dry
At the well below the valley-o
Green grows etc.

She swore by grass, she swore by corn
Her true love had never been born
At the well below the valley-o
Green grows etc.

He said to her you're swearing wrong
Six fine children you've been born
At the well below the valley-o
Green grows, etc.

If you be a man of noble fame
You'll tell to me the father of them
At the well below the valley-o
Green grows etc.

There's one of them by your brother John
At the well below the valley-o
One of them by your Uncle Don
At the well below the valley-o
Two of them by your father dear
At the well below the valley-o
Green grows, etc.

If you be a man of noble fame
You'll tell to me what did happen to them
At the well below the valley-o
Green grows, etc.

There's one of them buried beneath the tree
At the well below the valley-o
Another two buried beneath the stone
At the well below the valley-o
Two of them outside the graveyard wall
At the well below the valley-o
Green grows, etc.

If you be a man of noble fame
You'll tell to me what will happen myself
At the well below the valley-o
Green grows, etc.

You'll be seven years a-ringing a bell
At the well below the valley-o
And seven years burning in hell
At the well below the valley-o

I'll be seven years a-ringing a bell
But the Lord above may save my soul
From burning in hell at the well below the valley-o
Green grows the lily-o
Right among the bushes-o
Green grows the lily-o
Right among the bushes-o.

Right Among

(Christy Moore - The Official Website -)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:04 PM

Wade In The Water

Jesus met the woman
Met her at the well
Wade in the water
He said "Look out lady
You're headed for hell"
Wade in the water

Wade in the water
Wade in the water children
Wade in the water.
God's gonna trouble the water.

Maybe?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:06 PM

We do have two songs here, as richr pointed out. SINSULL has added a third (interesting, though; the "Look out, lady ..." lines are new to me).

There may be a conection way back when, if 'gentleman' or 'palmer' is changed to Jesus.
There is a Coptic song (on youtube) about the Samaritan woman (El-Samaria)at the well; use of the myth (John 4) in song seems to be old. No translation of the Amharic(?) of the Coptic song. There is a full choral mass setting by Gouzes.

Did Dave van Ronk compose the modern 'Jesus met...' song? The lyrics in "Rise Up Singing" (Sing Out book) seem to have a Af-Am gospel slant, but I haven't found the song in any of the gospel sites.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:15 PM

The Cristy Moore lyrics posted above are close to those sung by John Reilly, Roscommon, Ireland, 1969, and printed with musical score in B. H. Bronson, 1976, "The Singing Tradition of Child's Popular Ballads," Child No. 21, 2. "The Well Below the Valley," pp. 83-85.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Nerd
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:29 PM

Thanks Q,

John Reilly's recording of the song was also released by Topic Records on The Voice of the People, volume 3.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Art Thieme
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:44 PM

My absolute favorite version of this song was the one recorded by TRACY NELSON on what I think was her first solo LP appearance. This album was on Prestige Bluesville Records I'm fairly certain---and it was produced by Sam Charters. Ms Nelson was very young and very thin back then---circa 1960s. An old friend, the late Bob Pearlman of Chicago, had a huge crush on her in those days. And so did Mr. Sam Charters.

I'd love to get that LP on a CD now. Thinking of it provokes good memories of fun times.

Yes, that is the same Tracy Nelson who was lead singer of an early San Francisco rock band but the name of that group eludes me. And she still is singing, but out of Nashville here in 2009.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:33 PM

WEll, Mahalia was doing a knockout job of "Jesus Met the Woman at the Well quite a few years before D van R popped onto the scene. I believe he learned from a record I lent him back in the 50s.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 10:15 PM

The lyrics first given are almost identical to those sung by Mahalia Jackson in one of her first LPs. One verse omitted upthread describes the woman running through the town telling people that she met a man who told her everything she had done.

A


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:40 PM

The post by Dick Greenhaus sent me to my collection. Mahalia Jackson sang it at Newport in 1958. The composer credit is to James W. Alexander.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:56 PM

It should be noted that the comment 'Christy Moore; new words' is more than a little misleading. Only minor alterations have been made to John Reilly's text; the 'official website' fails even to mention him or Tom Munnelly, which really is inexcusable.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:04 AM

Alexander was a member of the "Pilgrim Travelers." Mahalia Jackson recorded it first in 1954.

The first recording of the song collected in Ireland, "Well Below the Valley," seems to be the one by John Reilly.
The Topic album vol. 3, with folk material by several singers including Reilly, is readily available (cduniverse in N. Am., etc.). Thanks for the post, Nerd.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Anglo
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 02:59 AM

As has been said, two separate songs (not counting Sinsull's fragment).

John Reilly's version of the older ballad was picked up by Planxty, among others. It's sad it doesn't get properly attributed. As far as I know it's the only collected version of 'The Maid and the Palmer' - Martin Carthy, et al, first with Steeleye Span and later with Brass Monkey concocted a really nice version though.

I forget where I learned the gospel song - it might have been DVR - ah, these many years ago.

Malcolm, really great to see you back, I hope you're feeling and doing well. Happy new year!

John


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:55 AM

Mine is "Wade In The Water" as sung by Odetta on an LP called Hootenanny, late 50s early 60s.I can provide most of the lyrics. Sung as a spiritual.

Wade In The Water

Chorus:
Wade in the water
Wade in the water children
Wade in the water
God's gonna trouble the water.

Jesus met the woman met her at the well
refrain: God's gonna trouble the water.
He said Look out lady you're headed for hell
refrain

CHORUS

Look at those babies dressed in red
refrain
Must be the children Moses led
refrain

Chorus


Look at those ladies dressed in white
refrain
Must be the children of the Israelites.
refrain

CHORUS

When I get to heaven- sing and shout
refrain
Nobody there can turn me out
refrain

CHORUS


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 10:09 AM

No, it was Miriam Makeba. Somewhere I still have the LP. Will have to dig it out.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:26 PM

"Wade in the Water" has numerous verses in various versions, including all the widely used "dressed in ___" couplets, in the form:

"Who's that yonder, dressed in _____"
"Must be ___________________________".

As in:

Red__________________The children Moses left for dead
White--------------The children of the Israelites
Blue---------------The Hypocrites a-coming through
Black---------------The Hypocrites a-comin' back

A.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 02:06 PM

Sinsull's "Wade in the Water" (Makeba(?) is a combination of two songs, "Wade in the Water" and "Jesus Met a Woman at the Well;" a very common occurrence in spiritual songs in which recombination was common, and a practice continued in later gospel songs.
As Amos posts, "numerous verses in various versions."

"Wade in the Water" seems to have its origin as a baptizing hymn. A version is in the DT, and a number of versions are included in thread 6108, "Wade in the Water." Unfortunately, several posts there are on other subjects, forcing the reader to wade in dilutant streams.
Wade in the Water


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:25 PM

Regarding the palmer=Jesus, Child's interpretation was that the Palmer was 'God' himself. In the Scandinavian analogues to Child 21 the woman is Mary Magdalene and the palmer is Jesus. My guess is that the 2 songs are related and that the blues versions derive from Scandinavian immigrants.


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Subject: Lyr. Add: The Well Below the Valley (Reilly)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:04 PM

Lyr. Add: THE WELL BELOW THE VALLEY
Sung by John Reilly, 1969

1
A gentleman he was passing by.
He axed a drink as he got dry
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows the lily O
Right among the bushes O.
2
My cup it is an (in? on?) overflow
And if I do stoop I may fall in
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows the lily O
Right among the bushes O.
3
Well if your true love was passing by
You'd fill him a drink if he got dry
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.
4
She swore by grass and swore by corn
That her true love was never born.
I say, fair maiden, you've swore in wrong
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.
5
Well if you're a man of that noble fame
You'll tell to me the father o' them
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.
6
Two o' them by your father dear
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.
7
Two more o' them came by your uncle Dan
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.
8
Another one by your brother John
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.
9
Well if you're a man of the noble fame
You'll tell to me what happened then
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.
10
There was two o' them buried by the kitchen fire
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.
11
Two more o' them buried by the stable door
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.
12
The other was buried by the well
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.
13
Well if you're a man of the noble fame
You'll tell to me what will happen mysel'
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.
14
You'll be seven long years a-ringin' a bell
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.
15
You'll be seven more a-portin' in Hell
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.
16
I'll be seven long years a-ringin' the bell
But the Lord above might save my soul
From portin' in Hell
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows the lily O
Right among the bushes O.

"Recorded by Tom Munnelly, D. K and E. Wilgus and sent by Mr. Munnelly to the Editor. Printed with musical score.
Child No. 21, "The Maid and the Palmer"
"It was not to be expected that a traditional version of this ballad which had barely survived in a fragmentary form in Scotland a century and a half ago, should have turned up in Ireland after the Second World War. But such is the case, and we have word of yet another variant in the same vicinity in the year 1970. The musical tradition is very unstable, and perhaps the tunes have been borrowed for the nonce, from material well worn in other connections. In the British Isles, the persons of the ballad are equally blurred and indistinct in identity. On the Continent, the Christ is more perceptible, but the Magdalen and the woman of Samaria are still confused. In the penances forecast, the ballad seems very probably to have crossed the sturdier tradition of "The Cruel Mother" (No. 20)."
Quoted from p. 83, Bertrand Harris Bronson, 1976, "The Singing Tradition of Child's Popular Ballads," Princeton Univ. Press.

Child, "The English and Scottish Popular Ballads," mentions the Percy Ms as the only English copy, and two fragments communicated to Sir Walter Scott.
Other versions of the story of the woman of Samara are widespread; Danish, Norwegian, Finnish, Swedish; some Slavic ballads, Moravian, Russian, French, etc., and there is an extended Coptic version on youtube.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:44 PM

The blues versions could be independent. In one version, "Look out, lady, you're headed for Hell," the line is an interjection in form, and the story is absent, most of the version being "Wade in the Water. It could have no relation to the 'woman at the well.'

The verse quoted by SINSULL refers to the woman at the well, but the subject is one that has been used for a long time by the man in the pulpit. It could be independent of the complex brought up by Child.
On the other hand, all of the countries mentioned by Child have sent many immigrants to North America. Is there any reason to select Scandinavians as the culprits?
So far, the 'blues' versions known are modern, but this could change.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Nerd
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:23 AM

Malcolm,

Not to quibble on this, but Christy Moore's official website does in fact mention both John Reilly and Tom Munnelly in connection with this song, albeit not in the lyrics section. In particular, this review, which Christy has taken the trouble to put up at the site, not only acknowledges Reilly for singing the song and Munnelly for collecting it, but makes it clear that Christy does so when playing the song in concert.

The people in charge of putting up the lyrics on Christy's site put some songs up with only lyrics, others with lyrics and chords, and a few with an essay by Christy. Only those few with an essay have their traditional sources revealed; otherwise most traditional songs are credited only to "traditional." The songs that don't have an essay state "Sorry no essay at present," so we can hope that eventually all songs will carry Christy's notes. However, in Christy's songbook, in album sleeve notes, and in concert, he routinely sings the praises of John Reilly and Tom Munnelly and credits them with preserving this song.

Finally, the credit on the site is not "Christy Moore; new words," but "Traditional With New Words By Christy Moore." Christy has stated elsewhere that he sometimes had trouble understanding what Reilly was singing, and so filled in words and verses for himself in some of the songs he learned from Reilly. I'm guessing that's all this credit is meant to convey.

Generally, Christy is very conscientious about mentioning his sources, which is why I feel it's important to point this out. I don't think the circumstances merit the word "inexcusable."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Nerd
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:25 AM

By the way, to echo Anglo...it's marvelous to have you back, Malcolm!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 04:55 AM

"Other versions of the story of the woman of Samara are widespread;"

Completely OT, but out of interest, one of the Sheffield carols is called At Jacob's Well, and is based on the story: "Samaria's daughter little thought that Jacob's God was near..."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:15 AM

"Jesus Met a Woman at the Well" was done by the great Josh White on an album I had back in 1959 or so (long lost). Also, didn't Hugh Masakela do an instrumental version (a hit, as I recall) of "Wade in the Water back in the 1960's or '70's?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM

I thought Wade In The Water reeferred to the pool (Gethsemane?) where the angel of God would trouble the waters and the first one in was cured of whatever affliction they had.

Certainly that's what "God's gonna trouble the water" refers to.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:37 AM

Pool at Jerusalem.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:42 AM

One of the verses I learned to Wade in the Water was

The River Jordan is chilly and cold
Chills the body but not the soul


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:15 PM

Art,

I think Tracy Nelson's band was Mother Earth.

Roger in Baltimore


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:34 PM

Q,
The reason I specifically postulated the Scandinavian link is that these versions refer specifically to Jesus meeting MM at the well whereas the French and Moravian don't. Most areas have Mary Magdalen but the story starts to deviate somewhat in the southern European versions and they seem to concentrate on the penances.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:44 PM

The woman at the well was not Mary Magdalene.

http://www.lifeintheholyland.com/woman_at_the_well.htm


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM

SINSULL, that is correct, but the folk versions confuse the two.
Child said, "The story of the woman of Samaria, John iv, is in all these blended with mediaeval traditions concerning Mary Magdalen, who is assumed to be the same with the woman "which was a sinner" in Luke, vii 37, and also with Mary, sister of Lazarus."

True that Scandinavian tales identify Jesus at the well, but so do versions from France, Gascony and Provence, as do some from the Iberian area, according to Child. It is God himself in Moravian versions mentioned by Child.
The variance in European stories seems to be considerable.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: GUEST,harlowpoet
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 04:11 PM

This song on you tube is on the same theme.

Everlasting Water


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 04:15 PM

Sorry - didn't mean my comment to sound so bitchy. At work and have limited time to post.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: GUEST,Joseph de Culver City
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 04:16 PM

Tj in SD---                                                                     A piano donminated instrumental version of "Wade In the Water" in the '60s was a hit for The Ramsey Lewis Trio, though Mr. Masakela may have recorded a version as well.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:06 PM

Didn't sound that way to me. I write in 'shorthand' at times and it reads like abrupt comment.

A nice version Nerd posted in the other thread! I may order the Glenbuchat Ballads.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Jesus Met a Woman at the Well
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 12:13 PM

As far as I'm concerned, "Wade in the Water" is a completely different song than the "Jesus Met the Woman at the Well" that I know, which is the song referenced in the third message of this thread, the one which appears in Rise Up Singing and on albums by Ian and Sylvia, Peter Paul & Mary, and Dave Van Ronk.

Both excellent traditional-gospel songs, but definitely different ones ~ despite the fact that some versions of "Wade" may include lyrics about a woman at a well.

*********************

I can verify what Roger in Baltimore posted earlier today ~ Tracy Nelson's band was called "Mother Earth," and they often performed an old blues song of that same title. ("No matter how rich you are / No matter how much you worth . . . When it all comes down / You got to go back to Mother Earth.")

About ten years ago, Tracy collaborated with Marcia Ball and Irma Thomas on a really great album, and they toured together for a while. Tracy was a great admirer of Irma (the longtime "Soul Queen of New Orleans"),and over the years had recorded several of Irma's greatest hits, with and without Mother Earth.


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Subject: Origins: Maid and the Palmer
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 06:02 AM

The Maid and the Palmer (Child 21) is the song for February 24 in Jon Boden's A Folk Song a Day project.

Here's the Traditional Ballad Index entry for "Maid and the Palmer":

    Maid and the Palmer, The [Child 21]

    DESCRIPTION: A woman comes to a well, where she meets a man who asks of her a drink. She says she can offer him none because her leman/husband is away. The man tells her that she has no leman, and goes on to tell of her sins and assigns a punishment
    AUTHOR: unknown
    EARLIEST DATE: c. 1818 (GlenbuchatBallads)
    KEYWORDS: Jesus religious adultery
    FOUND IN: Britain(Scotland(Aber)) Ireland
    REFERENCES (10 citations):
    Child 21, "The Maid and the Palmer" (2 texts)
    Bronson's (21 in addenda), "The Maid and the Palmer" (2 versions in addenda)
    BronsonSinging 21, "The Maid and the Palmer" (2 versions: #1, #2)
    GlenbuchatBallads, pp. 89-90, "The Maid of Coldingham" (1 text)
    Leach, pp. 106-107, "The Maid and the Palmer" (1 text)
    OBB 99, "The Maid and the Palmer" (1 text)
    PBB 3, "The Maid and the Palmer" (1 text)
    TBB 37, "The Maid and the Palmer" (1 text)
    Niles 15, "The Maid and the Palmer" (1 text, which Niles identifies with Child 21, but the fragment is so short that it could equally be part of Child 20)
    DT 21, MAIDPALM MAIDPAL2*

    ST C021 (Full)
    Roud #2335
    RECORDINGS:
    John Reilly, "The Well Below the Valley" (on Voice03)
    CROSS-REFERENCES:
    cf. "Jesus Met the Woman at the Well" (subject)
    cf. "See the Woman at the Well" (subject)
    ALTERNATE TITLES:
    The Samaritan Woman
    The Well Below the Valley
    Jesus Met the Woman at the Well (?)
    Seven Years
    NOTES: For the story of Jesus and the Woman of Samaria, see John 4:5-26.
    The second part of the song, in which the woman is given a penance in the form of a series of transformations, has no parallel in the Biblical story, although such transformations are attested elsewhere -- notably in "The Cruel Mother" [Child 20]. In fact, I wonder if the ending of this song in the Percy text might not be taken from Child 20. - RBW
    Last updated in version 4.1
    File: C021

    Go to the Ballad Search form
    Go to the Ballad Index Song List

    Go to the Ballad Index Instructions
    Go to the Ballad Index Bibliography or Discography

    The Ballad Index Copyright 2016 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.


Reinhard Zierke's page on Maid/Palmer is quite interesting.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 01:20 PM

Joe
'I wonder if the ending of this song in the Percy text might not be taken from Child 20'

I think the RBW who made this statement is Bob? It's actually much more likely the other way round. The earliest version of Child 20 has none of the pennances, and in fact they only occur in a small number of Scottish versions. My own take on this is that some enterprising Scots antiquarian added the verses to a version of The Cruel Mother having taken them from Percy's version of Child 21. Once this has happened it takes but a few years for the new version to enter oral tradition.

Apologies if this is repeating what I've said earlier in the thread somewhere.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer
From: IvanB
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 02:25 PM

A palmer was a person who wore crossed palm leaves to signify the person had made a pilgrimage to the holy land. Such persons were held in especial reverence during the middle ages, given almost the status of holy orders.

Obviously the two songs have been intermingled over the years. I suspect The Maid and the Palmer has its origins in the biblical story of Jesus and the woman at the well, but I never interpreted the palmer as being anyone but a citizen given a mantle of holiness by his circumstances.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 05:37 PM

An interesting possibility. Everyone has assumed because of the palmer's supernatural powers he is either God or Jesus in disguise, but the beliefs of the period might well have endowed supernatural powers of second sight and issuing penances to a palmer.

However if Child was right the ballad is a translation of a continental ballad and therefore we should look to the continental versions to tell us who he was.


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Subject: ADD: When Jesus Met the Woman at the Well
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 May 17 - 03:25 AM

WHEN JESUS MET THE WOMAN AT THE WELL

When Jesus met the woman at the well,
Oh she went running to tell,
She said come to see a man at the well,
He told me everything that I done.

She cried oh, oh, he must be a prophet,
She cried oh, oh, he must be a prophet,
She cried oh, oh, he must be a prophet,
He told me everything that I done.

He said woman where is your husband?
She said that I don't have one.
He said woman you done had five,
And the one you got now ain't yours.

She cried oh, oh, you must be a prophet,
She cried oh, oh, you must be a prophet,
Oh, oh, you must be a prophet,
You told me everything that I done.

Oh he told that Messiah was coming,
Oh he told me everything that I done.
Oh he told that Messiah was coming,
Oh he told me everything that I done.
She cried oh, oh, etc.

Notes: The Gospel According to St. John, Chapter 4, tells that Jesus came to a well in Samaria, and engaged in conversation with a woman drawing water there. He spoke to her about the water of everlasting life which he had to offer, and she asked whether she might have some. "Jesus saith unto her, Go call thy husband and come hither. The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou has well said, I have no husband; for thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly. The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet." This human, intimate exchange, and the woman's report to the village on the event, is recorded in the... song.

Another version of this song stresses a slightly different point in its choral stanza, and mentions that the people of the village, in response to the woman's report, came to see the man at the well
:

Oh listen, don't you hear what he say?
Oh listen, don't you hear what he say?
Oh listen, don't you hear what he say?

He say the truth is the light, and I am the way.
When the people of that city
Came and saw Jesus settin' at the well,
He say I can give water free
That'll save you from a burnin' hell.

Source: Negro Folk Music U.S.A., by Harold Courlander (1963, Columbia University Press), pp 59-60


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Subject: RE: Origins: Jesus Met Woman at the Well/Maid & Palmer
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 May 17 - 03:27 AM

Here's the Traditional Ballad Index entry on this song. Apparently, we don't have lyrics for this song in the Digital Tradition.

Jesus Met the Woman at the Well

DESCRIPTION: Jesus meets a (Samaritan) woman as she comes to draw water, and tells her "everything [she] has ever done." She proclaims him a prophet, and announces the news in the town
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1947 (recorded by the Selah Jubilee Quartet)
KEYWORDS: Bible religious Jesus
FOUND IN: US
REFERENCES (2 citations):
Courlander-NFM, pp. 59-60, "(Jesus Met the Woman at the Well)" (1 text plus a fragment); p. 252, "Jesus Met the Woman at the Well" (1 tune, partial text)
ADDITIONAL: Harold Courlander, _A Treasury of Afro-American Folklore_, Crown Publishers, 1976, p. 325, "(no title)" (1 text); pp. 348-349, "(When Jesus Met the Woman at the Well" (1 text, 1 tune)

RECORDINGS:
Pilgrim Travelers, "Jesus Met the Woman at the Well" (Specialty 329, n.d.)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "The Maid and the Palmer" [Child 21] (subject)
cf. "See the Woman at the Well" (subject)
cf. "Lift Him Up That's All" (subject)
NOTES: For the story of Jesus and the Woman of Samaria, see John 4:5-26 - RBW
Last updated in version 3.5
File: CNFM059

Go to the Ballad Search form
Go to the Ballad Index Song List

Go to the Ballad Index Instructions
Go to the Ballad Index Bibliography or Discography

The Ballad Index Copyright 2016 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.

Fairfield Four recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1RcR-x-Ewo

Dave Van Ronk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UeFu7QdZPI

Sister Rosetta Tharpe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hsG3gs6C_k

Mahalia Jackson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SYxW8uCVkU

Ian & Sylvia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je6MFG_H5HY


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