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Sharing guitar tab online being banned!

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GUEST,CharleyR 01 Sep 06 - 02:46 PM
Dave'sWife 01 Sep 06 - 04:38 PM
GUEST,Jack Campin 01 Sep 06 - 05:49 PM
Clinton Hammond 01 Sep 06 - 05:56 PM
Grab 01 Sep 06 - 06:23 PM
M.Ted 01 Sep 06 - 08:26 PM
Peace 01 Sep 06 - 09:01 PM
M.Ted 02 Sep 06 - 02:24 AM
bojay68 02 Sep 06 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,Jon 02 Sep 06 - 09:19 AM
RichM 02 Sep 06 - 11:24 AM
Peace 02 Sep 06 - 11:28 AM
Peace 02 Sep 06 - 11:32 AM
M.Ted 02 Sep 06 - 12:39 PM
Louie Roy 02 Sep 06 - 01:01 PM
M.Ted 02 Sep 06 - 02:31 PM
Homeless 02 Sep 06 - 02:46 PM
M.Ted 02 Sep 06 - 11:29 PM
Peace 02 Sep 06 - 11:36 PM
Clinton Hammond 02 Sep 06 - 11:40 PM
Clinton Hammond 02 Sep 06 - 11:41 PM
Louie Roy 03 Sep 06 - 09:48 AM
Scrump 04 Sep 06 - 05:09 AM
GUEST,Grab 04 Sep 06 - 07:03 AM
GUEST,Mr Red on a new computer - XP sucks! 04 Sep 06 - 07:44 AM
Grab 04 Sep 06 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,Ed 04 Sep 06 - 01:49 PM
GUEST,Inquiring Minds Want To Know 04 Sep 06 - 08:42 PM
Big Mick 04 Sep 06 - 08:51 PM
GUEST,pavane 05 Sep 06 - 02:42 AM
GUEST,pavane 05 Sep 06 - 02:43 AM
Grab 05 Sep 06 - 10:01 AM
GUEST,metal mark 21 Jan 07 - 09:21 AM
Richie 21 Jan 07 - 09:33 AM
Alec 21 Jan 07 - 09:44 AM
GUEST,metal mark 21 Jan 07 - 10:19 AM
Alec 21 Jan 07 - 11:01 AM
JeremyC 21 Jan 07 - 03:17 PM
Scrump 22 Jan 07 - 08:31 AM
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Subject: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: GUEST,CharleyR
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 02:46 PM

"With the fight against illegal downloading of songs starting to pay off, the music business has set its sights on a new enemy on the internet - websites which transcribe pop songs into musical notation.[...]Having seen off some of the biggest networks that enabled free downloading of songs over the net, the music business is now calling the tune for websites aimed at guitarists. Music publishers in the US say the guitar "tab" sites illegally infringe songwriters' copyright, and have issued "take down" orders to some of the biggest.[...]Cathal Woods, who runs Olga.net - Online Guitar Archive - has removed all 34,000 tablatures in the site's archive after getting a "take down" letter from lawyers representing two US groups: the National Music Publishers Association (NMPA) and the Music Publishers Association of the United States (MPA)."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5305520.stm

Apologies if there is already a thread on this, I came on here to look for one and couldn't find one, so just in case you haven't seen this...


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 04:38 PM

How about just the chords? is that now illegal too?


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 05:49 PM

You mean guitarists might be forced to use their ears and their imagination like other musicians?

God that would be tragic wouldn't it?


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 05:56 PM

Just move all the OLGA servers to Canada...


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: Grab
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:23 PM

You're a wee bit late, Charley - or rather, the BBC is. :-/ This thread was in August.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 08:26 PM

This "battle" is hardly new--before there were MP3s to go after, the music industry folks were going after "tab" sites, most of which really just post chords and lyrics, as well as sites that just posted lyrics-legally, they are on shaky ground, though that doesn't bother them, because the threat of legal action is enough to intimidate folks who are simply aspiring musicians trying to help others who are learning,

Jack Campin--Guitarists, by the nature of the instrument, have to work out a lot more on their own--You can play melody, rhythm, or bass, or a combination of three--block chords or chords with moving voices, open or closed position, chord melody, and thats without even thinking about alternate tunings--tab just gives you the starting point--you have to create, imagine and work out a lot more before youcan play anything--


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: Peace
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 09:01 PM

It's a real bitch that writers want to be paid for their work . . . .


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 02:24 AM

Have you paid for the rights to every song you every learned, Peace? Should you have to pay every time you write they lyrics to something down, or ever time you figure out the chords to something? Should you pay every time you play a song? Or every time you show someone how to play something?


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: bojay68
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 08:00 AM

I for one think that this kinda sucks but on a positive note it might make some folks train thier ears better and learn stuff on thier own more. Who knows, somebody out there might come up with a better version of an old favorite. Where's the harm in that? But, yeah, get OLGA and the like back up on the net is my say in the end.
peace, bojay68


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 09:19 AM

Peace, do you ever contribute anyone elses copyrighted work without the owners permission to any sites? Do you support any sites that do such things?

I do and consider it fair usage but I fear that guitar tabs might only end up being the start of a whole can of worms for many of us.


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: RichM
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 11:24 AM

If someone takes the time to put down on paper ( or the internet ) his or her interpretation of someone's performance, I'll use it if it helps me learn.

In some 50 years of learning, playing and performing musical works of other musicians,I have bought hundreds of recordings and music books. I think I've supported musicians to the affordable extent I could.
Now I'm at the stage of experience where I can (usually) listen to a recording or performance, and remember the chords and arrangements enough to do the song. Occasionally I have written out music or tab for less experienced musicians to help them learn...
Is this stealing? I don't think so! But each person has to decide for themselves...


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 11:28 AM

Let me ask you guys the same questions.


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 11:32 AM

BTW, most writers enjoy having their material sung on stages, by singer/performers, live. I have never heard a writer demand money for that kind of performance. A fairly well-known performer has been doing one of my songs in concerts and festivals. I don't mind at all, and no I receive no cash or remuneration. Doesn't bother me. My remark was more general in nature. (BTW, he asked my permission first.) There is an assumption made often that writers 'write for the love of it'. That's all fine, but it don't pay the rent. That was what I was saying. And since I know neither of you quys, you'll excuse me for not answering you.


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 12:39 PM

Online tab isn't music, and it isn't a note for note tablature rendition of a tune --it is really what you'd call "performers notes"--it just some basic information on fingerings and chords that players use to to learn a song by following a recording--it has nothing to do with players trying to get something for free(they bought the recording, after all, and, in many cases, bought the sheet music) and everything to do with musicians trying to learn to play a song, which they legally have a right to do-

As far as your example, you should realize that the concert halls and festivals do pay performance fees for your song, and that you should be receiving that money--


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: Louie Roy
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 01:01 PM

Maybe one of you mudcatters that are in the know can answer this.Since the music mongrels are going after the guitar tabs is it illegal to send someone an MP3 that you recorded off of a record,tape CD or something you taped off of the radio or TV or is it also illegal for you to make a tape of you singing a variety of various songs and mailing them this tape free of any charge other than mailing costs?


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 02:31 PM

As far as I know, you still have the right to personally share whatever you own with anyone of your choosing--what you can't do is sell something, or distribute in some way that interfers with the owners right to profit from their own work. principle is simple enough, but practice is something else again--

You should look up the details on how the law regards your rights, however, because they are continually being redefined by litigation--


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: Homeless
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 02:46 PM

"an MP3 that you recorded off of a record,tape CD"
Unless you were authorized by the copyright holder, you were in violation of the law when you recorded this. Creating another copy, to send to a friend, is another violation. When you purchase a recording, you only own the physical medium - the music is only lisenced to you, and that is limited.

"is it also illegal for you to make a tape of you singing a variety of various songs"
Are the songs public domain, or copyrighted? If the former, you're in the clear. If the latter, you should be paying a lisence fee based on number of pressings. You are then free to distribute however you wish.

"mailing them this tape free of any charge"
"interfers with the owners right to profit"
These two go hand in hand. The law has nothing to do with whether you are making money or not - it has to do with the copyright owner's profit. If you give away the tape/CD/whatever, you are preventing a sale by the copyright owner, and keeping them from making money.


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 11:29 PM

If you can site legal decisions that prove your claims, Homeless, I'd love to see them--as far as I know, there is still such a thing as fair use--you are entitled to record broadcasts and music for your own use, and to share those recordings with friends--For now, anyway.


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 11:36 PM

Great article here.


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 11:40 PM

" is it illegal to send someone an MP3 that you recorded..."
Not in Canada!


As Johnny Cash put it,

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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 11:41 PM

oops....

mIn>


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: Louie Roy
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 09:48 AM

Homeless if what you say is true and I'm not implying it isn't then it is also illegal for someone here on mudcat to post the lyrics of a song that someone requested for you would be infringing on the song writer


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: Scrump
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 05:09 AM

As far as I can see, the chords accompanying a song are just a subjective guide to a guitarist, reflecting the author of the tab site's opinion. You could have several tab sites for the same song with different chords. So I don't think the chords themselves are infringing anyone's copyright.

But if the site includes the lyrics of someone else's song, that is infringement of copyright. Many of them don't include the melody of the song, as it's assumed the reader will know that already (of course, publishing the melody on the site would also constitute copyright infringement).

What's to stop someone writing their own lyrics and publishing the chords for that? The lyrics could be any old nonsense, as long as they scan the same as the real lyrics (they wouldn't even have to rhyme).

For example, you could rewrite the lyrics to Bob Dylan's "Blowing in the Wind" as:

B*gg*r the sods who make up these laws
To stop us from publishing tabs
Any old crap words will do for the song
As long as it more or less scans
(etc.)

Hope you get the idea - would it be a way round the law?


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: GUEST,Grab
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 07:03 AM

as far as I know, there is still such a thing as fair use--you are entitled to record broadcasts and music for your own use

Yep. "Time-shifting" is established as fair use.

and to share those recordings with friends

Nope, that's never been fair use. Distribution is distribution, whether you're distributing it to friends, enemies or people you wouldn't know from Adam. You're allowed to distribute parts of it as quotes - for educational purposes, for example - but this has to be just a quote, and the fair-use limit is usually 10% of the whole word. (And no, you wouldn't get away with splitting it into 10 separate files and saying that's fair use! ;-)

I have never heard a writer demand money for that kind of performance.

Except they do, and that's what the PRS and similar groups are set up for - so that you get paid by people doing covers of your work.

Which is why I think they've got their heads up their collective arses in trying to squash online guitar tabs. The harder you make it to learn how to play your songs, the less likely it'll be that anyone will learn your songs. And that cuts how much you earn from your writing.

Scrump, you're right that you could do that. However, you then need some mapping between your new song and the original, otherwise it's useless. And the moment you do that you're screwed.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: GUEST,Mr Red on a new computer - XP sucks!
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 07:44 AM

Is this what they call "Keeping Tabs"?

How about ABC notation?


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: Grab
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 09:14 AM

Useful links...

Details of fair use
Time-shifting


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 01:49 PM

I'm in two ways about this:

Yes the artist should get paid, but if it's a Paul McCartney song (for example) I'd have no moral problem in transcribing the whole bloody thing!

Lesser (paid) artists, more difficult.

I remember when I was learning the guitar as a teenager, and had big problems working out the chords without a book (there were no web sites then). It frustrated me, but I eventually learned enough to 'hear' and am now able to put together a reasonable arrangement (chord wise) of anything I like.

Wonder whether it may by a good thing for learners not to have the chords? Otherwise they won't foster a decent ear??

Just a thought...


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: GUEST,Inquiring Minds Want To Know
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 08:42 PM

would free speech or copyright infringment come into play
if i say or sing the words to a song out loud and then tell another party the Key and chord placments???

or worse yet, show someone how to play the song on a
musical instrument?

is it copyright infringement to tape record a radio program
or tv program?

Hint: in case you forget, that was the SELLING POINT years ago
for tape recorders and later VCRs [record tv programs to view later] ..and then cd/dvd recorders [tv & movies]!

is it copyright infringment to play that recorded tape
or vcr tape to family or friends at a later date?

if i shell out $40 for a song book of lyrics and chords
can i let anyone else look at it or use it?

i let a friend borrow an instrument for a year he spent
in saudi arabia, he undoubtedly sang and played a lot
of songs on it - should he have sent in royalty payments?

i bought 500 records/cas tapes at an estate sale awhile back,
can i legally listen to them?

can i legally re/sell them?


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 08:51 PM

would free speech or copyright infringment come into play
if i say or sing the words to a song out loud and then tell another party the Key and chord placments???


Nope, that is simply your interpretation of the song, I believe it would be covered by fair use.

or worse yet, show someone how to play the song on a
musical instrument?


Same thing

is it copyright infringement to tape record a radio program
or tv program?


Nope, once again this is covered by fair use. What would be illegal would be to sell that tape, in other words commercial use.

Hint: in case you forget, that was the SELLING POINT years ago
for tape recorders and later VCRs [record tv programs to view later] ..and then cd/dvd recorders [tv & movies]!

is it copyright infringment to play that recorded tape
or vcr tape to family or friends at a later date?


Nope, non commercial use. Technically if you charged admission for that screening, you would be in violation.

if i shell out $40 for a song book of lyrics and chords
can i let anyone else look at it or use it?


Sure, I think the disclaimers/warnings in the book allow that, again it would be a "fair use". What you couldn't do is photocopy it and sell those copies, or give them to someone for other than a "fair use". Giving copies a song to bandmates, for performance purposes, I believe, is fair use.

i let a friend borrow an instrument for a year he spent
in saudi arabia, he undoubtedly sang and played a lot
of songs on it - should he have sent in royalty payments?


C'mon, quit screwing around. Stop the bullshit.

i bought 500 records/cas tapes at an estate sale awhile back,
can i legally listen to them?


Absolutely. The person sold them to you, they are yours. Now if that person sold you copies, they would be in violation of the law, as would you.

can i legally re/sell them?

Yep, they are yours to sell or keep as you choose. What you can't do is copy them and sell the copies.


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 02:42 AM

ABC files would still be subject to copyright, but there would be different rights for the tune itself and the expression in abc format.

As far as I know, only the copyright owner of the tune could authorise the publication of an abc version, but the rights to an authorised abc file itself would initially belong to the transcriber.

As for the chords, they ARE subject to copyright as well.
When I bought MIDI backing tracks from a licensed supplied, they could provide the lyrics as part of the licence, but NOT the chords.
That is why I wrote my program FIND MIDI CHORDS, which analyses a MIDI file and lists the chords being played.

Go here to find a copy to download


BTW
When I was in Saudi some years ago, I believe they didn't have any copyright laws (maybe I was just mistaken?)


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 02:43 AM

Typo in last message: Should be Supplier not supplied!


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: Grab
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 10:01 AM

would free speech or copyright infringment come into play if i say or sing the words to a song out loud

Not copyright, because you're not copying them. But if you're performing in public then PRS will want appropriate payment to go to the author. This is *not* copyright, it's licensing.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: GUEST,metal mark
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 09:21 AM

what the f%@k, this is ridiculous, most of the tabs i have looked at online werent the complete song, and who knows if its even remotely close to the original, they were just renditions of what the tabber thought they might be, how can that be illegal? so there trying to say free thought and expresion is illegal? what about all the music teachers in the world are they only going to be able to teach songs that they have writtn?, i very rarely look at tab, but once in a while i`ll check out the first few bars of a tab just to see how someone else would play it,
like tenacious d say "the goverment totally sucks"


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: Richie
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 09:33 AM

So Metal Mark,

Should there be no copyright laws at all? Then what should they be?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: Alec
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 09:44 AM

"You serve me
          And I'll serve you
          Swing your partners,all get screwed
          Bring your lawyer
          And I'll bring mine
          Get together and we could have a bad time"
          Sue Me,Sue You Blues
          George Harrison
          (Still in Copyrigt)
The history of Human music making is measured in millenia.
The history of Copyright law is measured in decades.
Which do you think will prevail?


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: GUEST,metal mark
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 10:19 AM

so ricthie
no copyrites r cool, if you wanna know exactly how a specific song is played then go out and buy a cherry lane tab book,but if your just interested in checking out a couple of bars of another players rendition, check out some tabs online.

and be careful alec writng down actual song lyrics might get you served,lol


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: Alec
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:01 AM

You may be right there Metal Mark! Better clarify my position.
What I was trying to say was imagine no possessions I wonder if you can... Oops no,hang on,better rephrase that um what I meant was I don't care too much for money 'cos money can't buy me...ah on second thoughts perhaps I'll leave it at that : )


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: JeremyC
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:17 PM

Since I'll often figure out how a song is played by watching a video of a performer, or by listening to it, I wonder if that should be banned, too, because if I listen to the album or watch a performance and figure it out, that's like having a tab for the song in my head! And god forbid, but I might play it in front of someone else who may also figure it out.

I don't see the difference between this phenomenon and online guitar tabs (although I think tabs can promote laziness, not to mention well over three quarters of them are absolutely wrong).


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Subject: RE: Sharing guitar tab online being banned!
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 08:31 AM

I agree that tabs you see on the web are often wrong. In that case, I don't see how they can be said to breach copyright, because they're not repeating what the original artist or writer did.


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