The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #158525   Message #3758691
Posted By: Jim Carroll
16-Dec-15 - 02:38 AM
Thread Name: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
To refresh your memory - this is what I said about Tommy Kenny which you dismissed as him having a laugh at our expense in the pub with his mates - I thing you took me up about my use of the term "redcoats" (as you do)
"One of the most moving moments was when he told us about the deserters.
He described their not walking on dry ground for weeks on end - constant mud.
He described the permanent, deafening noise of gunfire and how young men, little more than boys, would turn around and walk away from the front, not in an attempt to desert, just to get way from the sound.   
The Redcoats would be sent out in trucks to pick them up and they would be brought back to base, where they would be tried and routinely sentenced to be shot by a drum-head court martial.
If another push came, they would be taken from the place they were held and put in the front line to fight.
If they survived, they would be returned to prison and later their sentence would be carried out.
Tommy described how you would be talking strangers, young men, about their homes and families, swapping cigarettes, and later would read a notice pinned up on the canteen wall that they had been executed for cowardice."
"Any concrete evidence of summary executions"
You've been given it on three separate occasions - not from official records, not from historians who came along a century later to tell us it was a glorious fight for freedom, but from the men who were there and experienced it.
"Any evidence of "Jingoism" evident at this years RBL Festival of Remembrance? NO"
I have not commented on the Festival of Remembrance - I didn't watch it - must have been somebody else (or maybe you dreamed it.
I have commented of so-called Christians who were part of sending young men to die monopolising it as a Christian ceremony
I commented on the schmaltzy way Eric Bogles song was turned into a cabaret number for the occasion, rather than the anti-war song it was designed to be.
I have also commented on the obscene personal profit possibly amounting to 10 million pounds made out of the sale of ceramic poppies last year.
That's all.
"1903 and 1916 was booming, it was expanding at a terrific rate"
You paint a rosy picture of the conditions Tommy Keny would have been experiencing in Liverpool when he was conned into joining up
I SUGGEST YOU READ THIS
It is an official account describing what was happening in Liverpool and Strasbourg from the beginning of the century to the outbreak of war.
Liverpool had one of the highest unemployment figures in Britain - it always has had.
This is how the document describes the plight of the unemployed:
"Contributory National Insurance (1911) reinforced this strategy. It was in the employer's interest to avoid hiring day labourers: each required a weekly contribution for health insurance purposes, a payment that was doubled if the worker was also a member of the unemployment scheme.29 Access to unemployment benefit, based on actuarial calculation, would separate the regular contributor from the rest (the ''morality of mathematics'', according to the young Winston Churchill). A stipulated annual number of contributions and benefits limited to fifteen weeks maximum each year identified unemployed claimants as temporarily jobless in previously regular employment. Long-term unemployment was not officially recognized: once benefit rights were exhausted, the claimant left the scheme and re-entered the pauper class. From the small print found in
the legislation, the British unemployed emerge: a select group of regularly employed men whose services were temporarily surplus to immediate requirements, in a scheme initially confined to trades known to suffer from seasonal fluctuations in demand."
Apart from the 1926 General Strike, the years leading up to the war were the nearest Britain ever got to to having a revolution, such was the mass poverty and unrest.
Tommy could not get work, nor could any of his mates - when he recovered from the wounds he had received in the fighting he eventually got work on the docks - the main employer in Liverpool,
was then operating the 'Pen' system, where men would be herded into a compound and be either selected or rejected for a day's work - the latter had to return home and come back the following day to go through the process all over again.
That was the 'land fit for heroes to live in' that Tommy and his contemporaries returned to.
You claim on pressure was put on young man to enlist
A REMINDER
You have ignored and refused to comment of the White Feather campaign, the emotional blackmail, the employers who forced men to join under the threat of dismissal, the massive unprecedented publicity campaign to cajole, shame and trick boys into joining up by suggesting it would be a short picnic in Europe - such as the concert party shows put on by Horatio Bottomley, who became a millionaire out of sending young man to their deaths and was later jailed as a crook and embezzler.
You ignore the disillusionment of soldiers on leave finding a Britain totally unaware of the fact that there was a war going on; the wealthiest dodging the rationing and hoarding food....
You ignore the reality of how the worst off suffered and the soldiers were cynically used as cannon fodder in what is now fully accepted as a war of attrition by all other than the Colonel Blimps and the Land-of-hope-and-gloriers like you pair      
You are alone here in propping up each others lies and distortions.
It is you pair who are "a complete and utter JOKE"
You have convinced no-one
Jim Carroll