BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:20 AM

Hi guitar I knew Arthur when he was really radical!!
THey say he's gone soft :0)...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: guitar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:35 AM

there's a guy calld Arthur Johnstone he's a folksinger, and he's that left wing that he thinks that Karl Marx is a right winger

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 02:08 PM

Dead centre of the target, McG, and that's what we have to start dealing with, and NOW.

Son T.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 01:45 PM

That's exactly the point - we recognise that lamp-posts are things we can change around and that sometimes cease to be useful. We made them, we use them, we dispose of them.

But we don't recognise that the same is true of economic systems.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 01:25 PM

I just came across what struck me as a relevant sentence in a book I'm reading at the moment: "Economic systems are not things like the stars, but things like the lamp-posts,manifestations of the human mind, and things to be judged by the heart." (From Charles Dickens by GK CHesterton.)

Maybe, but you don't get people saying.....I don't agree with your analysis of a lamp-post, or that's not a true lamp-post, lamp-posts are causing all trouble of this world, I regard myself as a believer in lamp posts, lamp posts must be opposed, lamp posts eat away at man's self respect,.....whereas socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 10:28 AM

Snap!!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:41 AM

Oh, I like that! Yeah. Indeed, they are mind-creations, and that is all...ridiculous in the face of Nature, and eventually to be erased by Nature and by time. The same can be said of all political systems.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:38 AM

I just came across what struck me as a relevant sentence in a book I'm reading at the moment: "Economic systems are not things like the stars, but things like the lamp-posts,manifestations of the human mind, and things to be judged by the heart." (From Charles Dickens by GK CHesterton.)

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 08:14 PM

I generally don't post to threads that I haven't read but to the question "Anyone still a socialist/communist?", ahhhhh....

....yeah...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:55 PM

We have met the . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:48 PM

"Don... you may think a FAIR balance can be struck between Capital and Labour.
But only a fool would assume that such a balance can be struck between Capital and the environment."

Ake, that is another of those "us and them" arguments, and as usual misses the point. It's a matter of priorities, surely. Capital can't save the environment without the willing co-operation of labour. They have to stop raping the earth of its finite resources, and labour has to ask for rather less in the way of consumables to make that possible, so they MUST be pulling in the same direction for it to work.

We all sink or swim on board of the same spaceship!

First the balance, then the combined effort.

If we can't achieve that I see little future for this planet.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:37 PM

. . . I'm swiftly becoming one. . . .

Socialist, that is.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: redsnapper
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:01 PM

Yes... still essentially socialist.

RS

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 04:14 PM

Steady on Little Hawk, I'm quite happy with my decision to join the Communist Party. At the time it seemed the right thing to do and it was better to search for a better way than be one of those who just accepted all the shit that was thrown at them.

I certainly dont consider my choice to equate with "dog kicking" or "wife beating".   Never tried wanking in the rest room so don't suppose I should knock it!!

P Egg is obviously searching for something, he thinks he can humiliate by referring to how others learn from life.

Perhaps someday his search will expand his knowledge to one hundredth part of the wisdom you have aquired.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: guitar
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 02:04 PM

I don't have a dog or a wife and I don't work, mind I'm now wearing glasses which means it does make you go blind

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 12:45 PM

While we're at it, Penguin Egg, why not do some more threads in the spirit of this one, like...

BS: Anyone still kicking their dog?

BS: Anyone still beating his wife?

BS: Anyone still wanking in the restroom during work hours?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: guitar
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 05:35 AM

I'm a Socialist unlike those that voted fro the Labour party because they don't beleive in socialism anyway, I think that our natinal anthem should be THE RED FLAG

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 05:30 AM

Don... you may think a FAIR balance can be struck between Capital and Labour.
But only a fool would assume that such a balance can be struck between Capital and the environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 11:57 PM

Every society depends on the marketing process to enable the exchange of goods and services between individuals and groups of people. This is also true in a socialist system, even in a primitive tribal hunter-gatherer system, but it may be handled quite a bit differently. There are many ways of handling it. You can just let the chips fall where they may by having no rule at all about what people do...or you can regulate things to one extent or another through laws, licences, etc. The larger and more complex a society gets, the more regulations usually come with it...and it gets harder and harder for ordinary people to understand it and cope with it effectively.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 11:09 PM

That's the question--is there a necessity for markets or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 11:02 PM

"The situation vis-a-vis capital and labour is a matter of balance, and no matter what argument you put forward, there IS a point where both sides can achieve the best reasonable advantage."

          Don - I agree that's true, but labor is way behind schedule on this issue. Capital is now playing workers in developing countries off against workers in Europe, North America, and Japan--among other places. Labor has to organizw world wide in order to balance the equation.


    "But do you think there is any point to having a Stock Exchange---anywhere in the world?"

          I will agree that a lot of money seems to be wasted in the effort to buy and sell securities. At the other end of the spectrum Marx seemed to have missed the necessity markets in any respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 08:28 PM

Kevin--

But do you think there is any point to having a Stock Exchange---anywhere in the world?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 08:22 PM

"There is no solution other than dismantling this slave owning society and starting again."

I find it impossible to subscribe to this mindset, and I would go so far as to say that this sentence demonstrates the kind of us and them thinking which prevents the solution of our problems.

The situation vis-a-vis capital and labour is a matter of balance, and no matter what argument you put forward, there IS a point where both sides can achieve the best reasonable advantage. Whether you can get both sides to sit down and thrash out where that balance point is, is another matter entirely. IMO, it won't be achieved by negative comments about slavery. Maybe it will never happen at all, but it might be smart to really try before tearing down the existing structure and replacing it with....what?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 01:32 PM

I suppose these dealers earning ridiculous money are likely to spend it locally, so that's money in the till for various London enterprises. But in any case I read somewhere that before long they expect to replace the yuppies on the trading floor by computer programmes.

Basically I can't see that it makes any real difference whether all that stuff is happening in London or Outer Mongolia.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 01:00 PM

"would you like to..."

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 12:00 PM

Kevin--

Ah , but would like you like to abolish the London Stock Exchange tomorrow?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 05:13 PM

On the other hand, alongside the railway going round the mountain there will be scope for little townships to develop and for communities to grow, so that the railway becomes a lot more than just a link between A and B that gets there as fast as possible with no stops.

It all depends what kind of society you are hoping to develop.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 04:13 PM

Oh yes I'm the trite condescender!

Freddie Mercury....?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 03:51 PM

"A genuinely communist society would go round, ..." Ah, no.

Okay. Sorry for posing the question in the first place.

Commies would look at the life cycle cost. High initial cost to go through the mountain, less fuel and maintenance forever. Cheaper to all in the long run.

Cappies would look at the cheap cost up front and tack on the future costs to the consumer. Fuck em, we own the railroad. They will pay what we charge.

Sorry. It was silly of me to go about that like it was a contest. I apologize for seeming trite or condescending.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 03:35 PM

"Somewhere in the middle of all this is a solution everybody COULD live with, if only they would consider long term self interest," (Don)

There is no solution where Capitalism is concerned.
It is Capitalism versus the planet....and nature always wins in the long term.
To survive, Capitalism requires ever increasing sales of services and manufactured goods. this requires ever increasing supplies of energy and the environmental problems which accompany that energy use.

Put simply, Capitalism needs continued development. Capitalism funds that development and that development has in a few hundred years put the long term future of humanity and thousands of other species of plants and animals at grave risk.

The unsustainable lifestyle which we are encouraged to aspire to...houses, cars, unlimited credit, gadgets which become obsolete in months,mean that our lives are controlled by the need to work harder and longer undoing all rights and conditions that our fathers and grandfathers fought the Capitalists for.

There is no solution other than dismantling this slave owning society and starting again.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 03:33 PM

Variables make all the difference. You can't disregard them. They would determine, for example, whether there was more profit to be made in tunnelling, in which case that's the option the private company would be likely to take, even though it involved a waste of the community's resources.

A genuinely communist society would go round, but a society labelling itself communist or socialist might still choose the wasteful option, for all kinds of dubious reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 03:24 PM

BTW... sorry if I seem to be silly or arrogant or whatever by asking this. It was a question on a Master's Degree exam in Transportaion Engineering that I took. It was a question specifically designed to denote the difference between the capitalist and communist systems of economic analyses and how they are linked to the "battle" between engineering design and politics.

Much like my blurbs on the New Orleans thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 03:13 PM

Nope.... she's flat as a pancake and as hard as the rock in the mountain and there are no people living anywhere except in A and B. No evironmental concerns, no NOTHING. Just you and the mountain.

Read nothing beyond the post above. Don't introduce any other variables or questions. Just answer the question... and supply the reasoning, of course. I didn't ask that, but it is kinda the reason for asking the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 01:57 PM

if the City were transferred tomorrow to Abu Dhabi That, or something similar, will undoubtedly happen sooner or later. And as I said, the rest of the world gets by without being "the financial capital of the world", and when it happens, so will we.

................
There might be three reasons to tunnel through the gnu's mountain. One would because it would cost less because there's something stopping you go by the flat route - that might be some private landowner, it might be some kind of political frontier, or local inhabitants who were strongly enough opposed to the route. Or while flat the terrain might be unsuitable in some other way - impassible marshes maybe.

A second reason would be that the tunnel was seen as some kind of prestige project by the people in charge.

A third would be that building the tunnel would be seen as some kind of make-work solution to unemployment, or something of that kind.

Any of those three situations could arise in either a socialist or a capitalist system.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 01:47 PM

"The underlying assumption that has especially underpinned policy over the past decades in the UK has been that you just can't get efficiency and imagination within a public enterprise, and that in a private enterprise you are somehow guaranteed to get that stuff. And I think that is just lazy thinking."

"I'm afraid management sounded the death nell for the British Car industry long before the trade unions got in on the act. Lack of investment for product development, outdated models, cobbled together cars using outdated technology..."

Wise words from McGrath of Harlow and Rog Peek. It's a wonder to me that any private company keeps running. Far too many of them seem to be run by egotistical shits who are unimaginative, unaccountable for their mistakes and have complete contempt for their customers (let alone their workers!). The senior management of a company that I worked for, until recently, were always bleating on about "innovation", yet when you looked at the products that actually got to market 99.9% of them were just copies of other company's products ('mee-toos'). When R&D did actually come up with a truly innovative product senior management/marketing didn't know how to sell it!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 01:22 PM

Kevin-

The City--and the UK's financial clout--including the strength of the pound--helps the UK living standard. Do you not think that benefits you? I suspect that if the City were transferred tomorrow to Abu Dhabi, it would affect you--negatively.   Why is this not so?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 01:14 PM

I have a theoretical question.

A railroad is to be built from A to B.

The land is flat except for the mountain between A and B.

Do you tunnel through the mountain or go around it?

That will separate the capitalists from the communists!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 01:03 PM

Communism was destined for failure. Those uniforms are just so drab.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 12:56 PM

The rest of the world has by definition to get by without being "the financial capital of the world", and that includes places which manage pretty well.

That's fortunate because it seems highly unlikely that this status - "financial capital of the world" - will stay with London for all that long. The world doesn't work that way.

If the City were to be lifted up by some Arabian Nights Genie and taken to the other side of the world and deposited there I think we could manage pretty well.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 12:54 PM

I would certainly agree that public transport should be controlled by the public. If you call that socialism, then it's definitely an aspect of life which should be socialistic. In the DC area, the Metro--which is not a private firm-- at least at this point, seems to work fairly well. Though there are frequent problems--fare increases, plans to bring in new cars with fewer seats, breakdowns, etc.    (And the bus service is a poor stepchild.) It's still a hell of lot better than driving to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 12:42 PM

It seems that even if they sell the bus service off, they could still oversee the service and require a certain standard.

Also, would you abolish the City? Do you not think that having London as the financial capital of the world helps the UK economy?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 12:16 PM

DonW
It's very easy to blame the trade unions for the demise of the British Car industry, and of course the British gutter press will lead the way. I'm afraid management sounded the death nell for the British Car industry long before the trade unions got in on the act. Lack of investment for product development, outdated models, cobbled together cars using outdated technology, trading on what had been respected marques like Morris, Austin, Triumph etc. by fixing badges to rubbish and expecting to fool joe public. Remember cars like Allegro, Ital, Marina, Montego etc.
of course, unlike the workers, who will have paid the price of their livlihoods, management will have walked away with big bonuses, golden handshakes and peerages.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 11:07 AM

Since they sold off our local bus service to a mess of different companies it's got significantly worse in all kind of ways. The same happened with the trains.

That's just an example. I could give more.

The underlying assumption that has especially underpinned policy over the past decades in the UK has been that you just can't get efficiency and imagination within a public enterprise, and that in a private enterprise you are somehow guaranteed to get that stuff. And I think that is just lazy thinking.

Any system in which sizeable resources are diverted from the business itself, including the people working in it, and from the users, and abstracted by outsiders and onlookers, is in my view essentially defective. The aim should be to find ways to avoid the while at the same time preserving the useful techniques that can be associated with that system - initiative and enterprise and so forth.

The form of socialism I would like to see would be based primarily on workers and users cooperatives, ranging from tiny and local to regional, national or even supranational, rather than on the top-down monopolist state socialist model, which was cobbled together essentially as a way of preserving the management structure of the private business of the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 10:38 AM

Ah, but Kevin, I would submit that the UK is a capitalist society with socialist elements, rather than a socialist society with capitalist elements. And that you are better off having it so. True?

What changes towards socialism would you like to see in the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 09:26 AM

It seems to me that self-interest is an essential aspect of socialism every bit as much as it is of capitalism.

I want a decent health service which provides good medical care when I need it and which doesn't charge me money to use it. I want public transport which is reliable and comfortable and inexpensive. I want to have the protection of a trades union and have a job where I have some control over my working environment and on what I do every day.

That is all about self interest, short-term as well as long-term, and it seems to me that I am more likely to get those needs satisfied in a socialist context than in one which is built round private profit.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 08:38 PM

The problem is you need to appeal to a person's self-interest. Capitalism does this. Socialism doesn't--except if you are willing to think about your long-term self- interest--which, in general, people aren't. It's no accident that all the most prosperous states (GDP etc)are capitalist. Including Canada, the UK, and the Scandanavian countries. But these have large socialist elements--which are desperately needed to temper capitalism.

The pendulum in the US has to swing back soon from the Bushite love affair with capitalism--that is, self-interest as the solution to everything--to a larger socialist element--especially in health care. The Bushites even think that the only health care reform worth having is to give people "health savings accounts"--since they will in theory be more frugal if it's their money. They seem to think that people "choose" to go see a doctor. As if people want to do that. I'm not doing anything else this afternoon--I think I'll go see my lung specialist. Right.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 07:03 PM

"ENLIGHTENED SELF INTEREST!"

My boss wants me to work for a certain number of hours per day. If my shift is eight hours, he feels entitled to expect eight hours work. He is prepared to pay me money to acquire my labour for said shift.

I want money to buy food, accommodation, and perhaps a few luxuries. To that end I am prepared to commit eight hours to supplying the required labour.

I want to earn the maximum possible hourly rate, and my boss would ideally like to pay as little as possible.

Negotiation seems to be required, and after deep and meaningful discussion, we are able to come to an agreement which is satisfactory to both. I don't insist upon a wage which will cripple his finances, and he doesn't insist upon a wage which will starve me and my family.

As has been said above, some such restraint is essential, and the result I have stated is the only way in which capital and labour can both survive in the long term.

Add to the mix, tax levies on both my wages and his profits, which will be used to fund essential services, and you have Capitalism and Socialism co-existing in a workable way.

Where this all goes wrong, IMO, is in the fact that there is always envy concerning the differences in pay engendered by rank. The labourers want to have the same pay as tradesmen, and the tradesmen want the same as middle management etc. etc., and the shareholders always want a larger share of the cake.

Somewhere in the middle of all this is a solution everybody COULD live with, if only they would consider long term self interest, but of course they never will, which is why the UK auto industry was destroyed by stupid union leaders striking for 40% pay hikes in the sixties, and also why it took minimum wage legislation to alleviate the plight of the lowest paid, criminally exploited, UK workers.

The recent history of my country is loaded with instances of workers generating huge (obscenely so in many cases) profits for cpmpanies that pay peanuts, and also of companies declining and failing because of workers skiving for two thirds of their supposed working hours.

Capital abd labour cannot survive without each other. In reality there is no "US" and "THEM", only "US", but how long, do you suppose, will it be before they finally decide to work together?

I've been a Conservative (large C UK Tory) all my working life, but I also consider myself a socialist (small s), having paid my share to help those less fortunate.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:42 PM

Correct. The USA kicked Cuba into the arms of Russia, because they were mad at Castro for kicking out the big US-owned companies. Castro worked with the Russians because he had to, simply to survive.

100!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:29 PM

I've always rather liked - and found quite credible - the anecdote about the leaders of the Cuban Revolution getting together for at the first planning meeting after the fighting is done, and Fidel says "Is anyone here an economist?" and Che is pretty bushed and half asleep, and he thinks Fidel said "Is anyone here a communist?", and he sticks his hand up.

So Fidel gives him the job of getting the economy running right, and that's how the Cuban Revolution moved to the left.

But the thing that really drove Cuba into relying on the Russians was, of course, the way the USA pushed it away and set out trying to undermine the new government. And has kept on doing that for the last half century.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 01:53 PM

multi-nationals.