BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 08:25 PM

"John Hardly--Is jam in Goshen anything like balm in Gilead?"

Exactly! Except that it doesn't have the same meter.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Amos
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 07:14 PM

Lox:

You put in your pocket for Fb. Just don't clamp it on anything int here...


A

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 05:17 PM

John Hardly--Is jam in Goshen anything like balm in Gilead?

Amos--Does this help you know where to put your capo if you want to play in Fb?

Peace--Loved the binary thing. Like, "There are three kinds of people in this world: those who can count and those who can't."

B#B#
As Khayyam said, "Sans wine, sans song, sans cookie and sans end."

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Amos
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 07:01 PM

Slag:

Given that you have made assumptions about my way of viewing things that appear to be well wide of the mark; and given that your grasp of those asymmetries sounds pretty shaky; and given that I have a perfectly workable theory of everything that seems to satisfy my most burning questions in general about spiritual forces and events as well as things within the normal spacetime continuum; I don't think I will hold my breath worrying about how you see things. I am not trying to shop a theory to anyone.

The eightfold way is a reference to Murray Gell-Mann's theory of the organization of quarks in a hadron, and their relationship to the strong force. It really does not have a lot of epistemological meaning; it is noteworthy because it predicted, mathematically, a particle that was later found to exist.

Eipistemologically, the Noble Eightfold Path, as originally postulaed by Gautam Siddhartha, is more interesting, IMO.

The Special Unary group SU(3) doesn't need a subscript. It is matrix notation for a set matrix with three elements in n²-1 dimesnions. It is the mathematical description for the octets that Gell-Mann settled on in describing the relationships table of the hadron.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Slag
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 05:37 PM

TOE, The Theory of Everything, the holy grail of physics. The broken symmetries are a subject for an entirely different thread and perhaps an entirely different forum. Check out the work being done on string theory, SU sub 3 (as I can't write subscript with this program) the Eightfold Path, theoretical physics in general. I am not purporting to understand it completely myself. Much is far beyond my poor capabilities but I do grasp the concepts and what it means philosophically and epistemologically. Boiled down it means that the more we know the more we realize how little we know. It also means that every now and then a paradigm of scientific understanding gets turned over and the scientific community is confronted with a major overhaul of their basic assumptions. As Alice said, "Curiouser and curiouser!"

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Amos
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 04:44 PM

I'm afraid I don't know what "TOE" means, in this context, Slag. And I am also afraid you have mistaken me for a materialist hardhead, which I am not. The "asymmetries" you speak of are what, exactly?


All I was doing in my previous point was pointing out an implied logical fallacy.


A

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Slag
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 04:33 PM

Amos, I find that "religionists" often find much greater AGREEMENT with others about their experiences and beliefs than the other way around. Even within the great religions the denominational differences are usually about small matters and personal quibbles, form rather than substance. Your idea of analytical attack can and does apply verbatim in the scientific community with equal force and result. Professional jealously, "publish or perish", being first, Nobel sainthood, etc. It all goes to demonstrate that we are humans and imperfect creatures (or "beings", if you prefer). We see through a glass as darkly (or we have incomplete knowledge, if you prefer).

Bill D writes:

    "Life is a toil and love is a trouble.
      Beauty will fade, and riches will flee.
      Pleasures, they dwindle and prices, they double,
      And nothing is as I would wish it to be"

As Job put it:
      
      "Yet man is born unto trouble,
       as the sparks fly upward." Job 5:7

The commonality of human experience is one of the things that has made the Bible so enduring as well as endearing. It doesn't portray mankind as how it would LIKE things to be but rather how they ARE. King David was an adulterer and a murderer. Hosea's wife was a whore. Judah used prostitutes. On and on with no punches pulled. Good and bad and often in the same person. Noah getting plastered, conniving Jacob. It's all there in black and white.

Amos, when you solve the problem of the broken symmetries and elucidate TOE, when you have created life from inanimate substance then I will have reason to consider things your way. But I'm not holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 04:10 PM

Black Elk...
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=167466421

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 04:00 PM

Amos: I think Al was referring to those who had connected with the Great Spirit...But who am I to say? Faith is the evidence of things not seen...


"Let Go. Let God..." - Silent Unity

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Amos
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 03:32 PM

Bob:

THat may well be true; but it does not mean that everyone who experiences the opposition of mediocre minds is by that evidence a great spirit. Sometimes the mediocre minds like to gang up on mediocre spirits, too.


A

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:44 PM

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence." Albert Einstein

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 12:23 PM

At the start of this thread I said -

Ed, go to the zoo and rattle your walking stick along the bars of the tiger cage if that's the sort of fun you want.

Do you see what I mean yet, Ed?

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Amos
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 11:56 AM

Bee:

One answer is for the same reason that De gustibus non disputandum. Matters of metaphysical belief are not comparable one to another because they are individual personal constructs, born out of the individual's creative center, often on a deep, unexamined instinctive level.

This is what makes them vulnerable to analytical attacks.

It really comes down to whether you feel annoyed enough to start a scrap. Doing so for sheer exercise or enjoyment is certainly your own perrogative and there is no inherent value for or against doing so. It's a risk that any proselytizer takes and should understand he is taking when he wants to trumpet his version of metaphysics at you.

Personally I think such an impulse is driven by personal lack of confidence and is a sort of pseudo solution to being unsure of one's own viewpoint, or more likely of having fallen for the trap of "social proof" from other, similar, people, rather than individual exploration. A mind is a terrible thing to rent.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 11:24 AM

"Only drowning men could see Him"...."And He sank beneath your wisdom, like a stone,,,"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czQoGSYBeHU&feature=related

bob

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:53 AM

"Life is a toil and love is a trouble.
Beauty will fade, and riches will flee.
Pleasures, they dwindle and prices, they double,
And nothing is as I would wish it to be"

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 09:26 AM

Death and taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 09:09 AM

What are the things one CAN be "absolutely sure" about?

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Slag
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 03:10 AM

Too late Little Hawk! I 'm jumping back in! I really like you because we do see many things the same and have similar attitudes about some things. We are greatly divided on other issues but that does not mean we cannot converse civilly! People can disagree without being disagreeable.

I wholeheartedly support the concept of freedom of speech. Ideas, theories and beliefs should have feet of their own upon which to stand. You can attack ideas, etc. and even knock them down, if you are able, without attacking the person. If someone is so heavily invested in his ideas that he sinks or swims with them, so be it, just so long as the attack remains on the idea and not upon the person.

I'm looking at your examples now LH and this is what I see:

"Your clothes are ugly." could imply that the speaker believes the wearer has bad taste. More accurate would be "In my opinion your clothes are ugly." which removes the possibility of personal attack. It might even be a qualified opinion such as "I am a clothes designer and in my opinion, your clothes are ugly." or it could even be a considered and considerate opinion, "I am a fashion designer and I think I could offer some suggestions on how to improve your wardrobe. However if you are happy with your clothes please know that this is just my personal opinion."

Theism does permeate and touch every aspect of every life whether we recognize it or not. It is a part of the language and language symbols we use. Consider Greek and Roman mythology and how it is often reflected in art and conversation and psychology (especially Jungian). Take the word "gas". We use it all the time but it comes to us from the word chaos and Chaos was the mythical being that dominated existence before creation. It's there whether you recognize it or not. Or psychology! "Psyche" the spirit! Logos, the word, the knowledge of, the study of. The importance of Jerusalem (Jah's Peace) or Rome (founded by Romulus and Remus), San Francisco ( the city of Saint Francis) Philadelphia, the planets, the stars, everything. You cannot get away from it.

I also agree that those who get in your face and try to make a hard sell about anything and especially religion find instant and irreversible opposition from myself, personally. A polite "Not interested" is the only civility they will receive from me. I goes downhill form there. If someone wants to discuss religion or some other topic I am interested in OK, but that is my choice, choice being the key word.

Well, it's late and I feel myself starting to ramble so, uh, PM me if you have anything else to say!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:34 AM

And if that won't do it, if that won't provide some resolution to this apparently futile attempt to communicate, then PM me from here on in. This is just getting downright ridiculous, and it can only get a lot worse if 3 or 4 other people jump in.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:29 AM

But I have just said, and said several times and in several ways that you should feel entirely free about speaking about any positive form of belief you have...and that religious people are trespassing on other people when they prosyletize and try to convert them.

I just don't get it. Do you only notice the things I say that you think are against you?

I just cannot comprehend your inability to see that I AM supporting your positive viewpoints and your right to express them.

It looks to me like you are so desirous of continuing to feel persecuted in some way that you're not willing to even acknowledge anything I say that supports you. Could this be the desire to sustain a previous argument when in fact there IS no real basis FOR that argument?

We both agree that ideas about Hell and eternal damnation are hideous, and that prosyletization is intrusive. We agree on virtually every important matter. I don't mind in the least that you are an atheist. It does not threaten me. I would rather deal with a sensible atheist...or a sensible religious person...than a NOT sensible atheist or religious person! I DON'T CARE ONE DAMN WAY OR THE OTHER WHETHER THE PERSON IS RELIGIOUS OR ATHEISTIC AS LONG AS THE PERSON IS SENSIBLE AND REASONABLE.

What would threaten me would be this: if you were dishonest, hostile, abusive, unfriendly, violent or in any other way troublesome...not whether or not you are an atheist. It doesn't frikkin' matter! Your atheism is not an issue for me.

We have no real argument, in my opinion, but you seem very eager to find a way to prove that we do.

"I see no reason why I should not be openly positive about my views"

Nor do I! Needless to say.

So, what is your line of business?

'Theism infiltrates virtually every area of our lives'

It DOES???? Good golly, I hadn't noticed that. I was not aware of the looming crisis posed by rampant theism in Canada. Yikes! Time to man the barricades, is it? You sound like George Bush or Dick Cheney talking about Al Queda or something. Could it be that your hostility toward the imagined boogeyman of theism is making you see it lurking under every bush and looming like a titan over society, while I go about from day to day and barely even notice its presence? Why? Because I'm not scared of it, that's why. It does not frighten me in the least. If I was scared of it, I bet I'd see it everywhere too.

Just be who you are and be happy with what you are. That's all anyone has to do in life.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bee
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 12:33 AM

Little Hawk, nope, I do not see it that way, because I am not talking about walking into a church and telling people their beliefs are nonsense. In fact I specifically said I would not want to disrupt or be negative about a prayer thread, and was aware that people find them comforting.

But if someone speaks to me about their beliefs, I do not see that my lack of belief should be considered the negative POV and theirs the positive. That is just the construct that is placed on religion, that it is seen to be positive by believers and has long been considered to be positive. I am quite able to see my secularism/naturalism as the positive starting point. In fact, once again, and likely quite unconsciously, you seem to have decided that my strongly held atheist stance has less value (and a negative one, at that) than that of any theist.

In fact, I see no reason why I should not be openly positive about my views, just as theists are about their views. They express disbelief about my understanding of the universe, therefore, they are negative towards my beliefs.

They are saying my clothes are ugly, in your analogy.

And I don't think your analogy works very well, anyway, since I'm not saying "You are all stupid deluded fools (your clothes are ugly)". If we were to stretch your clothing analogy, it might be more like discussing the utility of various kinds of clothing, and why I prefer not to wear their clothing style, and why they do prefer it. But that's really stretching it.

And this: "I recommend focusing more on positives. Persuade by enthusiasm about what you are for and what you like, rather than by criticism of and attack upon what others are for. It shouldn't matter what others are for so much, because they are not living your life for you. What they are for is basically their own business, because that's their life, not yours.

What you are for is likewise your business, because it's your life, not theirs." = LH

Although you likely don't mean it to sound that way, is a suggestion that I shut up about my beliefs entirely, because the very mention of them is an 'attack' on believers. Theism infiltrates virtually every area of our lives, from Stevie Harper at the top saying God Bless Canada while allowing homophobic anti-science bigots to govern our country and influence our laws to the Jehovah's Witnesses at my door. Who I am always polite to, BTW, because they are my neighbours, not because they are theists. My point being: theists are in my business by default. At least they should be aware I exist, as a human being like them.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:02 PM

One more thought on the subject. You said, "why is it more insulting/agressive to tell a believer that you don't believe than for a believer to tell you that they do?"

Okay. It is more aggressive to express disbelief in something someone else believes in than simply to express belief in something you believe in.

The first is a deliberate negation of the other person's values. That is likely to bother them. The second is merely a positive statement about some value you have, not a deliberate negation of anyone else.

(but there can be some beliefs that are in themselves negative...like the belief that "unbelievers will burn in hell"...so it's tricky...) Those are negative beliefs, not positive beliefs. Negative beliefs DO involve attack. Postive beliefs do not.

Here are some examples:

It's a negative thing to say to someone, "Your clothes are ugly. I don't like them." ;-) If you say it, the other person doesn't like it.

It's a positive thing to say, "I like the clothes I'm choosing to wear." or "I like your clothes."

It's a negative thing to say, "That's a lousy piece of art," to an artist who is showing his work at a show.

It's a positive thing to say to him, "That's a beautiful piece of art." (or if you don't think it is and you can't find anything good to say about it, then just don't say anything about it, and move on...)

Get the analogy?

Now if I was aware that someone had different values than me in regards to clothing, let's say, and I didn't like their style one bit, would I go up to them and say, "I hate your clothing. It sucks."?

No. I wouldn't. ;-) Why bother them about it? I would not broach the subject at all.

If, on the other hand, I liked their clothing, then I might tell them so if it crossed my mind to.

If someone proposes a prayer thread on Mudcat, they are not attacking people who don't believe in prayer, they're just doing something they like to do that makes sense to them. Period.

If someone, on the other hand, launches a thread saying that all prayer is "a crock" and that people who pray are fools, then they ARE deliberately attacking people who do engage in prayer and they're trying to get them to give it up. What they should do instead, I think, is launch a thread talking about how great science is or something else like that that they are for. Something they themselves believe in. Talk about THAT. That's not an attack on people.

I recommend focusing more on positives. Persuade by enthusiasm about what you are for and what you like, rather than by criticism of and attack upon what others are for. It shouldn't matter what others are for so much, because they are not living your life for you. What they are for is basically their own business, because that's their life, not yours.

What you are for is likewise your business, because it's your life, not theirs.

People cross the line when they try to badger everyone else into being the same as them and having the same values as them. Religious prosyletizers do that, and that's why most people don't like them. Those who constantly attack religion and badmouth it also do that. They are also prosyletizing, but with a different point of view in mind. Both are claiming some kind of superiority. Neither has the right to.

In either case, it's aggressive, invasive, and offensive to try to badger other people in that fashion.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 07:36 PM

Nope, Bee, you have the same rights that way that anyone else does to speak on a subject, understand it, and speculate about it.

Like you, I find the concept that non-believers will be "hideously tortured for eternity, and that such a fate is well deserved" to be hideously repugnant. I have never subscribed to it. I don't subscribe to the idea of "Hell" or the idea of divine punishment or the idea of original sin. If such an insane deity as would do that (torture souls for all eternity) ran the Universe I guess I would find myself obliged to join whoever was willing to rise up and rebel against that monster.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bee
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 07:01 PM

Generally speaking, though, Little Hawk, those of us who don't believe in one of the standard set of deities are unlikely to tell those we disagree with that they will be hideously tortured for eternity, and that such a fate is well deserved. Believers do this all the time and are often surprised that we think it a deeply repugnant concept, and that it is even more repugnant to threaten anyone in such a manner, regardless of their being convinced of its factuality.

Now, I know not all believers are caught up in the Hell ideology, but most are, in some form or another.

Also, this question remains: why is it more insulting/agressive to tell a believer that you don't believe than for a believer to tell you that they do? Because that is certainly the impression I am getting, anywhere the subject comes up. I have been actively pressured not to discuss religion from the POV of an atheist on this very board. No one ever complains about any spiritual group conducting, essentially, prayer rituals, on this board and everywhere else, nor would I ever wish them to stop doing so, as I am aware many find it comforting. Are my thoughts about the universe of lesser value? Do I have less right to speak on the subject as I see it, or understand it, or speculate about it?

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 05:27 PM

Yes, people always try to create order. That's because order seems a lot safer and more predictable than chaos, right? One person's search for order may lead him to a religion or to faith in what he calls "God", another's may lead him to join a political party, another's may lead him to join the military, another's may lead him to join a street gang, another's may lead him to a career in science or the police force.

There are innumerable ways to seek order and thereby increase one's sense of security and control in a potentially chaotic world.

A confident expectation or extrapolation is exactly what I think faith is, religious faith included.

It is precisely the fact that religion does give some people great confidence that they are so drawn to it.

When you try to stand between someone and what gives them confident expectation, they get really angry! And that's quite understandable.

When you tell someone that that which they most believe in is "a crock"...whatever it may be...they likewise get really angry. This is as true if they believe in the Republican Party, or the Democratic Party, or their girlfriend, or their country, or their God, or their science, or their profession. It doesn't matter what it is. Everyone needs to believe in something, and it's best not to trash the beliefs of others to their faces if you can possibly avoid the temptation to do so. Yet I see people trashing the beliefs of others constantly on the Internet without a second thought, and I think it's rather disgraceful. They love dishing it out, but they do not enjoy receiving it back. No one enjoys being disrespected in that fashion.

There's no guarantee as to whose beliefs are "best" and there never will be.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bee
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 05:11 PM

I understand what you're getting at, LH, but I don't agree that it is 'faith'. I could as easily call it 'expectation' or 'extrapolation'. They love me, therefore they are likely to treat me kindly. The sun is known to have circled the earth umptybillion times, therfore I expect it will do so again tomorrow.

As for people you've met from poor countries having more faith, maybe the ones you've met do. I wasn't particularly referring to 'poor' countries, but to truly awful countries. People I've met who've survived gruesome all-encompassing trauma (I've met a few: Halifax is a port, refugees end up there frequently) haven't struck me as particularly interested in religion unless in the tribal sense of 'others like me'. Some will take on the religious trappings of any religious group which participates in helping them; understandable, and kudos to religious groups who do help. There is also a human tendency to question one's own survival when many around you have died. Why me? can be answered: God's reasons, which I can't be expected to understand. Otherwise, it is very hard to accept.

I've recently spoken with a young and affluent teen who by pure luck survived a bombing incident. He saw other children dead, saw people's dismembered bodies. He turned to God, believing God saved him, because otherwise why is he still alive?

In an unreasoning universe, people try to create order, even if it's just pattern imposition.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 04:02 PM

We all work on knowledge. Partial knowledge. Our knowledge is necessarily quite limited. Our faith (in whatever it is we have faith in and I do NOT speak only of religion) is based first of all on our available knowledge (limited though it may be), and secondly on our imagination's reach beyond the boundaries of that knowledge.

Everyone to some extent depends upon faith-based assumptions that reach beyond the present boundaries of their knowledge, yet what knowledge they have also plays a very significant part in influencing those faith-based assumptions. One's knowledge is the bedrock OF one's faith. The more you know about anything, the more faith you are inclined to have about it, based on that knowledge...plus further imaginative stretch. This is why people who've thoroughly investigated the possibility of reincarnation, for example, are far more likely to have some faith in its likelihood than people who have never given it any real thought....and the same goes for any other theoretical matter.

As for people in poor countries, I've met a lot of those people, and what I noticed about them, simply on average you understand, is that they seem to have stronger faith in spiritual matters and family ties than the average person does in an affluent society.

I would ascribe that to the fact that they have not been so sedated and distracted by affluence itself, but that's only speculation on my part. There may be any number of other reasons for it.

Bee, because you love your husband and family, you DO have faith in them. That's how love works. You also have knowledge of them. The two work in tandem, not at odds with one another. Knowledge bolsters an abiding faith, and an abiding faith always encourages the pursuit of more knowledge.

That which I have no faith in, I do not pursue.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bee
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 03:46 PM

I think...

...that one of the reasons I am so opposed to the kind of reasoning about faith, positive thinking, etc. I'm seeing in the last fifty posts or so is that much of it is predicated on the experiences of people whose primary lifestyle is supported by living where we do, surrounded by affluence, not particularly in danger of starving or being murdered for what little we might have, or running from the paths of oncoming armies. Yes some of us, me included, have suffered from poverty Western style, where keeping a roof over our heads got a little tricky and it might have to be someone else's roof, and food got harder to come by, and compared to others around us, we were hurting bad.

Bob R. said: "The answer is there. Why your life is the way it is. It's the focus you entertain, your "Faith."
That which got you through this life so far, If you believe "life is hard," quite simply, and with no big surprise, life is hard for you.

But if you boldly develop the "yes, a few things got in the way, but I'm going to do it anyway" mind set. You attach yourself to a great power, some people choose to call this "God"...

This is why you've been given the message, "According to your Faith, so be it unto you..."

(I ain't pickin' on you Bob - you just articulated more of what I'm trying to talk about)

This just ignored, as do all statements about faith in some greater spirit/intelligence/globular mass of cosmic consciousness that imply at bottom you get something back for your faithfulness, a huge percentage of the people in the world who live in conditions we can barely imagine. Those are people who aren't funnin' when they look around and say "My life is hard". Those are women watching their babies die because they haven't any milk left in their own famine-dried breasts to feed them. Children forced to be atrocity committing soldiers in some mad warlord's army. Little girls forced into marriages with old men who make slaves of them. Families in one room shacks hoping nobody kills them tonight because they are members of the wrong tribe. Women told to close their businesses and stay home because God says that's your place.

Prosperity gospel, whether it comes from a braying preacher or in a flower-power haze of cosmic goodies, would be a joke to people like that, if they have anything left of the sense of humour they may have started out with.

I'm damn glad I'm fortunate enough to be far away from those kinds of human experiences. Fortunate! That's the word: luck.of.the.draw. Yes, I can improve my lot through energy and activity and smarts, I can feel good about myself if I can convince myself I'm specially protected by Goodnessknowswhat, I can ascribe my place in life to having propitiated enough or not enough whatever deity I care to subscribe to.

Innocence! There are a lot of people on the planet who never had much more than nine months of that.

Faith may work wonders for y'all. Goodonya. I have Knowledge in stead. I love my husband and family. I know them. It isn't necessary for me to have faith in them. Or in anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 02:47 PM

"It is a bit foolish to always talk in absolutes when the fact is that one really doesn't know."

" the fact is "

ummmmmmm........is that an absolute?

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 02:10 PM

No one can make themselves believe something they don't believe. And why should they be expected to?

But it's not just a question of to believe...or not believe. It's a question of:

1. Do I believe this?
2. Do I not believe it?
3. Do I simply not know for sure?

If it's # 3, which is most often the case, then it isn't a question of believing or not believing, it's a question of:

1. Does this seem likely to me?
2. Does it seem unlikely?
3. Does it seem moderately likely or unlikely?
4. Is it possible that I need a lot more information about this before I can even have any justification for having any strong opinion about it?
5. Is it possible that I don't know much about this yet?
6. Is it possible that somebody knows more about it than I do?
7. Is it possible that I don't yet have ALL the answers? ;-) !

And if so, what would I base my categorical statement of belief or my categorical statement of non-belief on? A house built on sand?

Why is it that people keep stating absolutes all the time, as in saying "I believe this" or "I don't believe that". How much have they really got to go on? Do they really know?

Not too much to go on in most cases, I'd say. They mostly go on assumptions, based on prior assumptions, based on somebody else's prior assumptions.

It is a bit foolish to always talk in absolutes when the fact is that one really doesn't know.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 01:57 PM

Oops - italics should have ended sooner.

But I can't make myself believe something I don't believe, so I guess it IS hard (for some)...

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 12:54 PM

Exactly my thoughts, Slag.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Slag
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 01:31 AM

LH, et al, There is innocence and then there is higher innocence. The first we are born with. Yes, it gets worn down, abused and betrayed. The "Disney" gets rubbed off by the world. We stop believing in fairy tales, we stop trusting, our hides grow thicker and we learn what the real world is really like and we, above most things, protect ourselves and our own.

A higher innocence comes when we recognize that because we may have failed and lost our virginity, our innocence or perhaps had it stripped away from us, we can still hold to the ideals and concepts that are righteous. We can believe in the same and promote the same and encourage others to do the same. To surrender to cynicism and sneer at those who don't does not make for a better world. Jesus said to be as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves. Good words.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 10:28 PM

Your question was "is faith hard?". Well....(shrug)...obviously faith (in anything) is harder for some and easier for others. I don't think your question really has a definitive answer.

Faith (in anything) comes naturally when there is great love. I'm speaking of faith in general terms when I say that, not specifically of religious faith alone...but in either case, the same can apply. Lack of faith comes naturally when there is hostility, suspicion, disappointment, a sense of betrayal or any other bad feeling like that.

Have you ever noticed how great it feels when people have faith in you? And how lousy it feels when they don't?

When one is deeply and happily in love...one has tremendous faith in the object of one's love. These are the experiences we all secretly or openly long for in life and we search for them, each in his or her own way. Most people search for it through individual relationships, most often of the romantic type. Some people search for it through greater service...in various ways...to their family, to their community, to their nation, even to the whole world. Some people search for it through various forms of religious devotion.

I cannot fault anyone for engaging in that search, because in so doing they are rendering service unto the highest ideal they know how to reach for.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 09:45 PM

I was just countering the post above mine, not saying that is what I thought. The prior poster had been saying Cynicism is easy. Criticism is easy. Sitting back and taking potshots is easy. Disbelief is also easy. Thus, my question.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bee
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 12:46 PM

I prefers haddocks and handcuts.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 12:31 PM

And let the chips fall where they may.

Would that be Cod and chips?

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 12:12 PM

Thoughts on a Monday morning, after a snowstorm...

You might go through life thinking, well hey, it was ME who got the job, and I worked hard, and when all that bad stuff happened , I was tough, got up, dusted myself off and kept going...And all of that is true. And you might look at the people in this world that you would call "lucky," "privileged", "in the right place at the right time," etc. Why is that?

Those people have gone through bad times, maybe more so than you. But they were not self defeating, their focus was on a world of possibilities, even in the face of troubled times; they had the experiences, but did not DWELL on them. They CHOSE to have a different mind set. It is why we refer to them as winners, the bold, geniuses...
You too, have access to that same force, you need only focus your thoughts. Some would call this Faith, and label it under the guise of Religion. Others might call it self-reliance, and choose not to acknowledge any form of "higher power."

You might choose to experiment with the concept of "review of the day." That is to say, before you retire, observe your thinking patterns for that day. Did you struggle that day? Or, was it one of those "magical" days, where everything went your way? A blend of both? What was the dominant thought? Woe is me? Or, wow, what a great day!
Examine a number of days, what was your attitude, "I can DO this," or, "I'd like to do this, but I don't have..." Or, "I don't stand a chance?"

The answer is there. Why your life is the way it is. It's the focus you entertain, your "Faith."
That which got you through this life so far, If you believe "life is hard," quite simply, and with no big surprise, life is hard for you.

But if you boldly develop the "yes, a few things got in the way, but I'm going to do it anyway" mind set. You attach yourself to a great power, some people choose to call this "God"...

This is why you've been given the message, "According to your Faith, so be it unto you..."

bob

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bee
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 12:10 PM

Perhaps, then, people (self included) should be more careful about speaking universally rather than specifically. And let the chips fall where they may.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 12:05 PM

"I'd like to believe that there is a God..."


                      I'd like to believe I had fifty-million dollars in the bank too, but...

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 11:41 AM

200!

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 11:36 AM

Anything you have faith in (God, the government, your parents, your partner, your children, the scientific community, your doctor, your lawyer, and yourself) can be damaged when a person becomes fearful, defensive, and reactive. That damage is the problem I was referring to. Faith does not only apply to religious beliefs, but to all forms of belief and trust in anyone or anything. The fact that some of you are taking what I said as a personal attack on you is the perfect demonstration of what I am talking about when I say that offence is often taken before it was ever intended.

I never met anyone yet without some chip on his shoulder. The chip on his shoulder was not put there by me, and I do not take responsibility for it, nor carry guilt for it, nor can I remove it. Only the one with the chip on his shoulder can remove it.

If he's willing to. If not, he goes on carrying it.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 11:08 AM

"Faith is very hard for a heart that has grown cynical, fearful, reactive, defensive, and suspicious, as Slag suggested." Little Hawk

How about curious, bold, inquiring, challenging?

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bee
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 10:57 AM

"Faith is very hard for a heart that has grown cynical, fearful, reactive, defensive, and suspicious, as Slag suggested." Little Hawk

I see this opinion, or something like it, often, coming from people who are believers. In most cases, they don't seem to even understand that they are broadbrushing and insulting. It is as insulting to say I am cynical, reactive, defensive and suspicious as it would be for me to say you are gullible, naive, and unintelligent. I'm perfectly comfortable with saying I think someone's belief is hogwash or full of nonsense. I'm not prepared to say people (particularly people I like) are all those negative things - unless, of course, they are.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 09:25 AM

Is faith hard, Mrzzy? Not necessarily. It depends on the condition of the heart. I had no trouble having total faith in my parents, my country, and the authoritative power of the world of science when I was 7 years old. Faith comes very easily to a heart that is open.

Faith is very hard for a heart that has grown cynical, fearful, reactive, defensive, and suspicious, as Slag suggested.

Most of us do become quite cynical and suspicious as time goes by...due to a series of shocks and disappointments we have suffered in life. We start expecting the worst. We develop many chips on our shoulders, and we being reacting to things around us in a hostile manner before any offence has even been given...as I see all the time on this forum.

I remember that when I first went off to school I thought that everyone in the world would always be kind and truthful. I thought that all people were good to one another. I thought that everyone had high ideals and noble virtues. Well, I was in for a surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 09:00 AM

Faith, then, is hard?

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Slag
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 02:24 AM

Cynicism is easy. Criticism is easy. Sitting back and taking potshots is easy. Disbelief is also easy. In a world of distrust, cynicism and general negativity, God help the soul who ventures a theory or an original idea or a belief. That's fresh meat before the lions. An honest critique seeks to understand what is being proffered and then analyzes the same in light of reason or theology or form and substance or history and so forth. Cheap shots come from a attitude of general disbelief or suspicion or a smug attitude of superiority and certainly not from a heart of love and understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bee
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 10:58 PM

Alan Sokal's name has become a verb - a high internetz honour.

Just read the last page and a half of this thread. Think I'll go on over and see if there are any more birthday LolPZs linked at Pharyngula.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 10:44 PM

Fred Allen Wolf, Ph.D "Poppin the Quiff"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5mPWmGhfJQ&feature=related
I reached a state of mind one time where I observed a horse's head that looked similar to what you would find in a chess set. The difference was it was constructed with only lines of white light determining it's features. What set it apart was that I was able to observe it from every direction AT THE SAME TIME. Something that lasted for perhaps a second, something I won't forget...A glimpse into the Quantum Field, or the mind entertaining me, who can say?
bob

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 07:40 PM

Snail - "You were mistaken or, more likely, badly taught. The fundamental undelying principle of science is to question everything especially conventional views."

That's true. But it's not as you think. I was aware that science questions everything...I simply was not quite careful enough as to how I worded my original statements in the previous post that you are alluding to.

What I meant was this: as a child I learned to approach the world strictly through the scientific viewpoint...as opposed to approaching it through the mystical viewpoint, some religious viewpoints, or the viewpoints of superstition or folk legends or beliefs about good and bad "luck". Did I leave anything out? ;-)

Am I clear now? I WAS aware that science questions and re-examines conventional views, and I was inclined to do that...but only THROUGH the approach of science, logic, observation, and rationality. ("science" meaning, the scientific methods...observation, experimentation, measurement, etc)

It was not surprising that I would have had that viewpoint. My father was an engineer and neither of my parents had any religious beliefs, in fact, they rather looked down on organized religion. ("mumbo jumbo", my Dad called it)

Like any child at a young age, I tended to believe whatever my parents believed. Later on, of course, I tended to question what they believed quite stringently.

I later moved into all kinds of other interests beyond my parents' viewpoints, including spirituality, but I don't belong to any religion. I'm interested in all of them (the religions), and I am still interested in science too, naturally. I mean, who wouldn't be, if they knew anything about it? ;-)