Is folk a dirty four-letter word?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 01:49 AM

one thing that attracted me to this music 50 years ago, was it was more honest than the the pop music world, I have never had any problem using the word folk to describe my music.
I do not regard it as a dirty word.
Part of that which attracted me to this music, was the idea at that time, that folk music was judged on actual perfomance not hyped PR.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 04:23 PM

lemonade lady, you are clearly aiming at venues outside thefolk club circuit, so if it works for you ok,
but i am only explaining my reaction in the context of the folk club festival circuit and what my reaction as an organiser would be

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 04:04 PM

Guest Keith Price.You are quite correct In the RN for capstan work a bosuns whistle, fife, fiddle or drum was used. The only reason I used HMS Victory as an example is that the records state how many sailors were required on the capstan.( a number I found surprisingly high)
Thanks for the correction and clarification.

I was kind of agreeing with Steve Gardham's post of the 11th Jan

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 03:32 PM

Iains: Not sure how you got shanties out of all this. Crosspost maybe?

RE rudeness and folk in general:

Attitude is an internal individual psychological construct. Hospitality and entertainment are external relationships.

If both the venue owner and the audience all share your attitude, Bob's yer uncle. If somebody, somewhere, calls you something dirty, it is you who have failed to be accessible, interesting and entertaining. That's one job, not three.

And let's make no mistake, audiences do like to hate. It's a product. Always has been. Between the so-called “Mandela Effect” and dogma/propaganda/fake news, folks can be managed to hate things that do.not.exist.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 03:05 PM

Iains, they didn't sing shanties in the Royal Navy.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 02:49 PM

That's a bit rude ??

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Iains
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 02:48 PM

I doubt the capstan shanties for hauling anchors were very musical.
As an example take "randy dandy oh" and HMS Victory. This ship had two anchor capstans one above the other so up to 144 sailors could be employed on the task that could take up to 5 hours of backbreaking labour.
It was not a continuous process either. The capstan rope was a continuous circle of rope, not the same as the anchor rope.One was continuously untied and tied to the other by "nippers" and friction allowed the capstan rope to heave up the anchor cable and store the 6 tons of it into a locker, this employing yet more sailors.
Even allowing for pauses the process was strenuous. The emphasis would be on keeping the timing, rather than musicality. I would imagine by the end of the process, even the singer was nackered.
(other sources suggest up to 250 sailors would be employed raising anchors)
A performance by shanty singers would find it hard to convey the hideousness of the process, in limited headroom and having to step over the rope with each revolution of the capstan, while all the while exerting maximum effort. If the dogs failed and the anchor was allowed to get away the capstan bars would be lethal.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 12:28 PM

i get gigs without having t9o mention the word folk, that is because i have been playing in folk clubs and festivals for over 46 years and have a track record.
i get gigs in ireland on the strength of my singing.
if someone approached me for a gig at the festival i run and said they do progressive folk with attitude.
I would think it was an entry for Pseuds Corner.
using the term progresive folk with attitude is just a load of bullshit, being progressive is a subjective opinion that is open to debate
dealing with someone who has an attitude is the last thing i want as an organiser, what i want is professionalism, skill, abilty to communicate with an audience and performers who do not create me with problems, as far as i am concerned someone with an attitude can jump of the Ballydehob 12 arch bridge.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 11:06 AM

But is progressive folk with attitude folk? :-D

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 22 - 02:53 AM

"Progressive folk with attitude." Ah, that's the formula!!
Cheers!
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 12 Jan 22 - 12:00 PM

We've found it a bit of a hurdle when getting gigs. Once I mention folk, I can hear the interest drain out of their enthusiasm. I now say that our genre is progressive folk with attitude.

Www.miceinamatchbox.co.uk

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 22 - 07:46 AM

Actually, Joe, it makes me nervous too. I feel that one of the reasons that we folkies are often seen as a somewhat impenetrable set apart, in which it's rather hard to do anything without being criticised for doing something or other wrong or a bit untraditional, is that we indulge ourselves in long bouts of looking inward, as in many a thread like this one. As a relative outsider (a harmonica player of traditional, mostly Irish, music) I feel rather fortunate in that I can so explicitly and so boldly "do the wrong thing" that I never get criticised for it!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jan 22 - 02:55 AM

well feel free to expunge anything I say that you think might be contentious. I don't claim to be an expert on anything

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 09:37 PM

Threads like this always make me nervous, but I guess they have to be. What I like to do with threads like this is to let them run their natural course, and then close them quietly once they've died down so nobody can refresh them and peel the scab off the wounds.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: rosma
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 08:28 PM

Although I used shanty singers and pseudo-shanty singers as my example, I didn't intend to mean it would apply exclusively to shanty singing.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 06:16 PM

Steve: "...100% heritage related entertainment...."

Why do I get the feeling no actual maths were used in this statement?

Less drift here methinks: What is a Shanty

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 05:28 PM

There is a likelihood that heaving chanties in port or in less strenuous circumstances might have afforded the luxury of harmony on occasion, but I can't see it with hauling chanties whilst out at sea.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 04:15 PM

I suppose it is, Dick. Which is why I said I doubt rather than I know. It is a fact that some people will automatically harmonise though so I will still say it is likely that in any situation where a group of people are singing, some will be harmonising. They may not intend to or even know they are doing it but some will do it all the same.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 04:03 PM

Exactly, Steve. They would have been sung with a complete disregard of keeping to the tune or words. Bit like some floorsingers :-) I reckon that it would have been pretty difficult to hear anything but the rhythm at times anyway!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 04:00 PM

That was probably as they were intended but I doubt that is they way they came out!"
speculation and guess work

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 03:41 PM

When you're breaking your back with exertion musical niceties were the last thing to be taken care of. The only consideration was keeping in time.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 02:37 PM

I had this discussion with someone from a shanty group, Steve. Yes, they were work songs and I would certainly concur that no-one purposely put any harmonies in. However, harmony happens whether it is meant to or not. Get a group of a dozen or so people singing and, whether by design or accident, some will be harmonising. May be because there are some notes they cannot reach. May be because that is what they hear. Could be many other reasons. But he was insisting that shanties should be in pure unison because that is how they were sung. That was probably as they were intended but I doubt that is they way they came out!

Nowt to do with the thread of course but an interesting enough aside I think :-)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 10:58 AM

Good points, rosma. Regarding chanties, they are today 100% heritage related entertainment and are totally away from the original context, so that means they can be performed in any way the performers feel fit. It is a personal preference to me to sing them in as close a way as I can to what I envisage was the original style, with the proviso I have other preferences, i.e., I enjoy singing in a group and improvising harmonies. I doubt very much any harmonising was involved with the originals. What I'm trying to say rather clumsily is there is no right way or wrong way, it all comes down to personal preference. We are entertaining/educating so we should make the best stab at that if we wish to succeed.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: rosma
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 09:10 AM

I've read about half of this thread (sorry if I'm repeating what's in the other half). It reminds me of something I mused recently. An acquaintance of mine is a shanty singer. He has been known to look down his nose a little at popular shanty groups.

I am perfectly aware of "traditional" shanty singing, but I relatively recently saw The Longest Johns a few times and have been inspired to sing some of the songs they sing, whether or not I'd heard them before.

My acquaintance recently referred to hearing a recording of The Longest Johns and described it as being the worst he'd heard them sing. He described it though in a way that showed somewhere deep down some sort of admiration for them.

I pointed out to another acquaintance that popular folk-like performers, particularly those who sing traditional or near-traditional songs, are capable of acting as a gateway drug which could, with the right attitude from us, get more people into folk clubs and sessions. If we sing a shanty in a traditional way, for example, and they recognise it, they may sing along, and they may even be drawn further in to listening to that type, and perhaps other types of folk music.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Roderick A. Warner
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 09:03 AM

Point taken, Dave. But I’ve heard more bad acoustic guitar players then amplified ones down the years I’ve attended gigs in various venues in several countries. I’ve heard a lot of great music in ‘folk clubs’ and a fearful amount of bungling crap. In fact, can’t think of any bad amplified guitar players, off hand.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 07:25 AM

well seeing as the word 'folk' has created such division - perhaps that is no bad thing

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 05:16 AM

...and the youngsters who come after us...
- Who will do it their own way, no matter what people here think, and it very probably won't be in anything called a folk club.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jan 22 - 10:02 PM

I don't think it does any harm to credit most people with good intentions whatever their beliefs are.

When I was 16 in 1965, most towns of any size had about three folk clubs. I thought (mistakenly) that it was a state of affairs that would endure. How could we possibly throw such treasure stores of entertainment and enrichment away?

I thought I would be safe taking a few years to get my playing up to the standard of the players and singers I admired.

But throw it away we did, and by the time I started writing and performing in the mid 70's, there only fragments left. And by and large the fragments were fought over like a basket of rats.

I don't think theres ever been much point in apportioning blame. By then most of us were living in dormitory towns, far from where we were born - rootless almost by definition. But some of us wanted a voice - despite living in soulless estates. And the songs we produced felt no alliance with basket weavers and the like.   Sure the traditional songs had as many valid virtues as Shakespeare. But the 'in the tradition' business seemed to many of us similar in spirit to the turn of century poets writing about Highwaymen in the age of the steam and early combustion engine.

I don't think we'll ever get back to the generosity of spirit that I remember in those early folk clubs. Folk isn't a dirty word to me. To me its been an artistic movement of terrific achievement. Whether it has good days in front of it is up to us, and the youngsters who come after us.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 22 - 08:45 AM

At my age I can filter out some sounds, Roderick :-) Amplifiers tend to nullify that :-(

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Roderick A. Warner
Date: 10 Jan 22 - 08:30 AM

… as opposed to a badly-played, out of tune acoustic guitar? Heard many a time down the years…

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Jan 22 - 04:37 AM

I saw that happen at 'Grannies Folk and Blues' in London. Raggy Farmer removed the electric noise maker from the stage. Those were the days! I saw the late Christy Hennessey blow the place apart, with sheer personality and his own songs. Sorry! A sign of age reminiscing in public.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 22 - 03:00 AM

Al. "To me - artists and pieces of music float in and out of the orbit of what is folk music." is just about as perfect a description of how it should be as I can imagine. Thank you. Other people would disagree of course and, yes, some have done so in a way that is toxic. Fortunately, they are getting fewer and further between.

I also agree that a word in someone's ear when they cross the line is the best way of going about things. It only happened once in my 30+ years of helping run a folk club though I am glad to say. The perpetrator took offence of course and we never saw him again. But who wants a badly played, out of tune electric guitar blasting out at their folk club? :-S

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 10:41 AM

Amy MacDonald did a version for, I think, Scottish tourism. It was on her album "This is the life" as a hidden track at the end for some reason!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 06:10 AM

One of the newer songs most oft sung in Scottish folk clubs is Dougie Mclean's "Caledonia" which first really came to prominence to the Scottish public in general through it's use in an advert for beer in the early 90s. That cover version by "Frankie Miller" was then released as a single and reached the lower regions of the UK pop chart. It is kind of forgotten now and Dougie's own version is the better known again.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 06:00 AM

However if the song, o good ale, or Drink old England dry, was used to advertise a beer like Adnams Spitfire, I probably would feel differently.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 05:51 AM

I can see the advantages of Folk music being popularised through adverts, but I find emotionally, I can then be put off the song, not because it is popular but because of the association, an example might be the Rev Gary Davis version of Candy Man being used to sell Candy Floss.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 04:38 AM

Well this is what I mean about spiritual.

I'm not sure you can define and refine the quiditas of what is folk music in the same way that Thomas Aquinas tried with truth, beauty and Christian faith. And frankly - I'm not sure its a worthy aim - after all what is it for except to say 'yahboo! Sucks to you!' to someone who is pissing you off.

If you have someone who turns at your club and wants to sing rubbish - them to piss off. You don't need the 1954 definition and bell book and candle. sod off! usually does the job.

To me - artists and pieces of music float in and out of the orbit of what is folk music. The intention to be folk music is is largely illusory. Its like a venn diagram where the parameters keep changing.

This rancorous going over of old arguments is what imbues the term 'folk' with poison.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 04:11 AM

Oh, and thanks for the other links Nigel. I have enjoyed them all. I think you are now the named expert on folk fusions :-D

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 04:09 AM

Yes, I see what you mean, Allan and Nick. I agree. I did ask for a reason, well two really. Primarily, if mainstream singers do folky stuff then it may become both better known and more acceptable among the younger generations. Of course we may get some critics slagging them off but that always happens. Secondly, I was once told in no uncertain terms that pop singers can never do folk as they are only in it for the money and any folk singers trying out new stuff are just wannabee pop singers. Good to see that attitude is not endemic :-)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 03:08 AM

It's not the money, or the musical direction, it's the sincerity. Of course you can do other things, just be honest about it. Unlike the likes of John Lydon IMHO. That's where we've got the edge I think. That's the point I was making.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 02:55 AM

Barbara Dickson went from Folk music in folk clubs, to mainstream success in the pop charts and in musical theatre, then back to the folk music world again. Good on her I say. Don't see why you can't do both. Let's face it Karine Polwart chops and changes from album to album. Why not??? If you make a good folk album then it is a good folk album - even if the previous one was a cover of 80s pop songs or whatever. Why should musicians be restricted?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 02:27 AM

What if it goes the other way? Someone who has already made loads of money in pop music then releases some non conformist folky stuff that is different to their musical direction? Eddi Reader for instance with her Robert Burns showcase? Neither Fairground Attraction nor mainstream! Should performers from the pop world be able to switch direction or can pop singers never be acceptable performing folk?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 07:16 PM

Non Conformity, is OK, unless it makes loads of money. See my posting on this thread 18th of December. Nothing wrong with making money, but not at the expense of professed beliefs, and musical dedication. Inspire and then betray, happens rarely if at all in the Folk world. I believe we all value that, and should be proud of it. No, not a dirty four letter word at all.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 03:55 PM

All minority interests are seen by the great unthinking masses as something to fear and take the piss out of, because it doesn't conform to their mass-culture. Mass media has blown this out of all proportion.
Those in power are happy to perpetuate this state of affairs.

All you can do is make good music and hope that you inspire some people. You'll never inspire all of them.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 12:26 PM

"How does it help the image of English folk music?"

To be honest, it probably doesn't. But, one of the things I like about House & Land is that here are two excellent musicians who are deeply involved in the US experimental/ underground music scene, yet who are also knowledgeable about traditional music and comfortable enough with playing it to bring influences from their other musical lives into their song arrangements. To me this normalises folk music - it's not out on a limb but part of their wider musical lives. Jake Xerxes Fussell is another good example - a very good interpreter of traditional songs who is equally at home sharing a bill with rock and underground musicians as he is playing on more specifically folky stages (last time I saw him he was on tour with
Daniel Bachman).

Here's Jake Xerxes Fussell live on KEXP. He's got a UK tour in May. I already have tickets :-)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 08:16 AM

I am thank you Nigel :-)

That link was lovely but, putting on my devils advocate hat, how does it help the image of English folk music? And there are some amongst us who would claim that the instrumental accompaniment detract from the song! ;-) (Not me I hasten to add. I thought it was great)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 07:52 AM

People write folksongs about the nobility like Matty Groves quote

Matty Groves is about arranged marriages, AND SOCIETY AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME.
the necessity for his wife to be buried on top because she was of noble kin, his lord ship was a psychopath and power freak,who it appears was not tried for murder because of his social position, not much different from john hardy[ apart from the outcome,because of his social position], or the nutter in "early morning blues"
however. it will be intersting to see what happens to the Prince who was a friend of Epstein., Have times changed?
Folk belongs to people from all levels of society and about all levels of society.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 07:23 AM

Well with the best will in the world (and my will is in the top four) - are you asking the right question Dave?

To me it seems that folk is dirty, by definition. Its the English language you are taking issue with.

Folk is the music of the great unwashed. The Queen isn't folk, or her family. THe house of Lords isn't folk.

People write folksongs about the nobility like Matty Groves, and Sir Patrick Spens. But Lords and ladies have their gig and folk belongs with the mucky denizens in the mucky streets.

All attempts to trap it on BBC4 for half a dozen insomniacs and a couple of superstars who need a government grant and a record deal to change their guitar strings have been pretty shit - compared to the actual stuff of pubs, and peoples front rooms.

Blues doesn't shy away from its demotic origins and the fact that all the practitioners are skint. Why should we?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 07:05 AM

Hi Dave - I'm good thanks, in answer to your question a few days ago! Hope you are.

I'm not sure any of us can do much about the negative image folk music has in some parts of the media. I'm also not sure it matters that much.

I tend to simply point people at music that blows my mind, like this by House & Land and suggest preconceptions are best left at the door.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 04:43 AM

Thanks, Dick. We were posting at the same time and your comment is a good example of bolstering the image of Scottish folk.