BS: GM Strike

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 09:49 PM

Cheech to Chong - "Brakes? What are brakes, man?"

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 09:48 PM

B - Yeah, you're right. Those huge CEO salaries are, in fact, welfare checks. That's exactly what they are. I wish more people could see it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 08:42 PM

LOL, Rigs... Yeah, you go to change the radio station at 70 mph on the innerstate and instead of the radio changin' stations the car goes into reverse??? Oh yeah, big fun...

But beyond the simple fact that building cars requires a certain skill level, yeah, the airlines a perfect example of broken promises... I know of one pilot who used to work for a major airline who has told me that he can now make better money as an assistance manager at a fast food resturant??? Yeah, the airlines loved 9/11... Their company execs got a $26B welfare check while my buddt got hinm a job at the local McD's... Then it got worse as one airline after another started renigin' on the promises that had made... The airlines are probably the poster child of all industries where management has run roughshod over it's employeees (slaves)... Disgracefull...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 06:42 PM

But Bobert - Think off all the excitement to had when driving the cars those illegals would have built.

                I agree completely with what you say about union pension and health care plans. I've known people who have worked for airlines who have been completely wiped out. And, of course, this all happens when you're too old to go out and get another job - start a new profession.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 06:24 PM

Well, not to be changing the subject here but GM, along with Ford and Chrysler made a lot of money way back then and made promises to their union workers... Many of these "promises" have not been kept by the Big Three... Yeah, they give the same blah, blah, blah answers as to why they can't keep thier word but bottom line they don't keep their word... They promised that their retirees health plans would be handled by them and nhow it looks as if they have been able to pass this off to the union...

This is terrible and the only reason that they can do this is because "they can" get away with it...

I don't read where the big shot executives are taking pay cuts when they are pleading with the union folks with the usual "sky is falling" arguments... Whats that all about???

But nevermind that... I wished they had hired a bunch of illegal aliens to build cars... That would have a been a hoot... Buildin' cars ain't exactly like picking crops and slingin' drywall mud... Yeah, that would have been a blast to watch...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 03:58 PM

One country's loss is another one's gain, ay!

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Greg B
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 09:14 PM

The philosophy student probably saved his mind by being
a philosophy student. In fact, he could probably get a lot
of the 'head work' for papers and such done while doing his
assembly-line job.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: number 6
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 06:03 PM

He contributed to his new country ... Canada.

And that is that.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 05:48 PM

...and he contributed by deserting...?

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: number 6
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 05:21 PM

I should also add my friend came into to Canada as an immigrant ... In 1968 he was drafted into the U.S. army ... he deserted just before he was to embark to the conflict in South East Asia ... after drifting around 'on the lam' for a year he crossed the border into Canada, wife an newborn son in tow .... working on the line at Chrysler was the only work he could find and he was grateful for that job (and the UAW) until the day he retired. He is also grateful to Canada (eventually getting citizenship) for taking him in. He has put 2 sons (and himself) through university. Just one story were these (illegal)immigrants and UAW workers can contribute to our society.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: number 6
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 05:08 PM

My friend earned his undergrad degree in Philosophy while attending part time classes and working full time on the line at Chrysler. All this and raising his family at the same time. It took him a long time to get that degree, but he did it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Greg B
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 02:45 PM

Eric, I had the 'privilege' of being a Computer Science instructor
at an SF Bay Area community college during the days when GM was
shutting down their Fremont plant. (Subsequently, it became a
NUMI plant where they built the Chevy Nova version of the Toyota
Corolla, and it now belongs to Toyota--- I think they build light
trucks there).

Part of the 're-education' program was to funnel assembly-line
workers into the school where I taught, to become computer
programmers.

Of the dozens of assembly line workers we saw, I don't recall one
that 'made it' through the program. Oh, some hung on through CS1
and beginners' 'BASIC' programming. But next quarter, it was time
for FORTRAN, and more complex things, on a far less forgiving
system (punched cards run in batch on a mainframe).

Their problem-solving abilities had been erased. Oh, they could
follow spelled-out instructions well enough. But ask them to
spell out the instructions to a computer, that was another thing.
It wasn't that they were stupid. They just had been told, for
maybe decades, exactly what to do. When presented with an objective
and a kit of parts to get there, they were lost. Stuff that was
simple for the recent high-school graduates just left the
assembly-line refugees stuck, frustrated, and perhaps angry.

The year was 1982 or so.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Greg B
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 02:32 PM

Yeah, Peace, but in the scheme of things these various 'deadly'
defects just aren't nearly so huge as people make them. OVERALL,
the Pinto was a pretty good little car for its time. Especially
when you considered it was coming from a company (American Ford)
which had nearly no experience in building economy cars. Compare
its safety with, for example, anything coming out of the 1950's,
even large cars, and overall it was much better.

When the Pinto was new, kids were out (horrors) riding their
bicycles with no helmets, people were driving around with children
not in a car seat, playpens were such that toddlers could get their
heads stuck in the bars, and people who didn't happily suck up
secondhand smoke were just sticks-in-the-mud.

In those days, too, companies didn't pre-build the costs of
recalls and liability suits into the cost of the products. Because
such things didn't happen. When it was built, it was built,
engineering defects and all.

Ralph Nader, God bless him, came along and changed the rules. For
everyone, which was fair enough.

Compared to my present vehicles, my 1983 Toyota pickup truck was
a veritable death-trap. Then again, compared to it, my 1969 MGB
was even more so. But it was a cocoon of safety compared to the
MG TD my parents drove me around in as a youngster. When I wasn't
pedaling around the neighborhood, sans-helmet, on a Schwinn
Sting Ray.

In 1983, Toyota probably knew how to make a vehicle that's as safe
as my 2007 FJ Cruiser. But it was mandated neither by a market that
would pay for it, nor the all-leveling rule of law.

Yep, I'd buy a Ford. I haven't, but I would. I wouldn't go and
find myself a Ford Pinto--- but neither would I feel that great
driving around day-to-day in any car built before the advent of
really solid crash structures and airbags...even, say, a Mercedes
450SEL of the same vintage.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 02:16 PM

"The damage to GM's reputation by putting out questionable product would be massive..."

                There are folks out there who would argue that this is what they've been doing for the last thirty years, though I'm not one of them.

                But what I've understand them to have done in this last round of negotiations is to separate the really skilled workers from the less skilled workers. This is going to allow the company to force wages down for the lower tiered workers. Some of these workers are going to eventually gain the skill necessary to do the more highly skilled work. It's going to be hard to keep that separation going forever, and I think the days of the highly paid auto worker are numbered.

                I've been involved in other industries where years of experience has been replaced by technology as well. Toyota seems to be able to man their plants even when the locate them in areas where there has never been any manufacturing of this kind in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Peace
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 02:00 PM

Maybe, maybe not.

Firestone, Ford. Forty-six deaths and the bastards knew,

Ford Pinto. BOOM. And the bastards knew.

People still buy from Ford.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 01:57 PM

Riginslinger, don't let any one fool you. Assembly line work is not idiot work. There is enough training involved that no manufacturer would put untrained people on the line, as the amount of supervisory work would greatly exceed the so called savings by using cheaper labor. Considering the size of the union, their families, even the maquiladoros, there is little or no benefit to replacing workers who know their jobs. The damage to GM's reputation by putting out questionable product would be massive.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Peace
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 10:26 AM

Wouldn't have been fooled by the Skylark, Spaw?

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 10:23 AM

It seems like they looked around, saw how many illegal aliens were actually out there, and figured they'd better make a deal before it was too late.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 01:49 PM

Those who shill for the American ruling class were anxiously anticipating busting the GM union so that the stock price would drasticly rise...in the short run. Busting the union would be good news for the investment board but would be terrible news for the country that has lost manufacturing jobs at an historic rate.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 10:21 AM

Well, the contract is settled, with some givebacks on each side but basically along the lines the company wanted.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 06:37 PM

Will we have the full monty or the half-assed general?

That oughta' piss off the Brits............Ahh hell, they'll get over it. Anybody who can tolerate Smith Instruments, Girling Brakes, SU Carbs, and Lucas Electrics for all those years have gotta' be pretty laid back........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 06:19 PM

Hmmmm. We may be on to something. Say we build up a demand for something that never existed - of course, we don't say that-we'll set good legal minds to that detail - and when a country-wide populace sets up a clamor, signifying their willingness to outbid any and all competitors - why then we can apply all that money into any areas that need funding. Whether it's a city that needs reclamation or an organization that is dying on the vine, so to speak, or even a country that is deeply in debt- all they need is monty and we'll have LOTS of that.

Anyone with me?

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 05:56 PM

Maybe that's the answer. GM can just go back to making 1966 Buicks, and they'll be able to finance everything.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 05:33 PM

LMAO......Got the joke already huh Ebbie?

Well see Greg, my problem with that '66 Buick Century ain't so much it being a land yacht which don't bother me, but more like the fact it never existed.

I'll pass on all the restoration offers as I'll probably never get around to finishing one of these lovely old girls (actually Karen's favorite car) in my back garage.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 05:05 PM

Spaw, I just now googled for '66 buick century' +photo' and guess what? Your most recent post came up! Fast, huh.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: pdq
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 04:32 PM

Is this the right one?

                         Century

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Greg B
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 04:27 PM

Oh a '66 Century would be interesting. But as a daily driver?
Bad mileage, poor safety, tendency to rust through in a couple
years, not a lot of fun in the snow belt (rear wheel drive),
and in stock form, kinda slow and even modified vague handling.

Pretty much wearing out and falling to pieces after 85K miles.

Those great American 'land yachts' weren't as good as some
people remember them.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Peace
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 04:26 PM

Plush or leather interior?

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Peace
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 04:25 PM

Catspaw,

I can get you one, no question. However, delivery could be a problem. And if you're gonna insist on the VINs matching, that will cost more.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 04:25 PM

Spaw,

Want to restore my '68 AMX?
390 Auto, go package, AC,13xK miles...

Or my 77 Mercury Comet with under 50K miles?

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: pdq
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 04:24 PM

The '66 Buick Century sold just as many units as the '66 Buick Roadmaster.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 04:21 PM

That's what I thought I said....

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 04:11 PM

I can't get ya a 60's Buick of any kind Spaw, especially round here as they have all been taken .... but I can get a 1988 Crown Vic ... pretty good shape, no restoration required ... that Ford 80's silver, deep red velour upholstery. Very nice.

Have ya noticed all the old Buick kind of guys are now driving Maximas.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 04:07 PM

"And please, don't give me that "illegal immigrant" crap. That problem can be solved: for one thing we can enforce the existing laws."

               Rapaire - That problem would be solved if we enforced the existing laws.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 03:50 PM

Geeziz Greg, I'd pay a million for a '66 Buick Century! No shit!!! The value would be beyond priceless. I think most people would give their left nut or their eye teeth or whatever for a '66 Buick Century!

Can you get one for me? I'd make it worth your time and all.....seriously. Just make sure the VIN matches with a 1966 Buick Century and I AM a buyer right now. I'll split whatever I can sell it for over and above what I pay you for it after putting it in like new condition.

You too Six......Deal goes for you as well!   Matching VIN is all I need. I'll spring out of pocket myself for all restoration work including doing most of it myself. As you can see, a '66 Buick Century is a GREAT match for today's drivers!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 03:30 PM

Maybe, I hope, possibly, this will be the impetus to provide a minimum level of health care in the US. Nothing fancy -- wards instead of private or semi-private rooms, no TV, no telephones -- just good basic medical care. Free immunizations, since prevention is less expensive than treatment.

And the ability to buy additional private supplemental insurance.

And please, don't give me that "illegal immigrant" crap. That problem can be solved: for one thing we can enforce the existing laws.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 03:02 PM

The same can be said for the Big 3's Big Managment team Greg ... their tactics in marketing, auto design and business approach "is about as good a fit for today's economic reality as a 1966 Buick Century is for today's drivers" ... good line Greg.

But as mentioned, the game is over for the Big 3. Their day has come and gone .... like the Buick Centry. This strike is probably the coup de grace. It will be the workers and pensioners that will pay the price. The market place certainly won't give a damn.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Greg B
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 01:29 PM

It's worthy of note that the UAW has not been very successful at
getting workers at US Toyota and Nissan plants to vote the UAW
in.

The UAW, of course, blames this on union-busting tactics of the
companies and the bad judgment of the workers.

The companies, of course, claim that they treat their people
well enough that there is no need for a 'third party' in the
employment relationship.

The truth is likely somewhere in between--- that there is
indeed need for representation, but the UAW's tactics and
approach are about as good a fit for today's economic reality
as a 1966 Buick Century is for today's drivers.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 01:27 PM

What is missing, and I think has been missing for years, is a realization of the symbiotic relationship between labor and management. Screwing the workers provides the managers with more money, but lowers productivity and ultimately drives the company to close. Screwing management means that coordination of production, inventory, etc. is lost and the company will close.

Each needs the other, just as we need plants to produce oxygen and to absorb the CO2 we breathe out.

Balance is, and has been, missing from both sides for far too long. And I can cite case after case....

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 01:14 PM

Riginslinger, did you read the post to which I linked? It is so far out in right field, I was being a bit facetious, but the folks who are quoted believe what they are saying and that, to me, is unbelievable.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 01:10 PM

"The workers also will not benefit if the company goes under."


                That's the issue that I think a lot of people are missing.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: EBarnacle
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 12:39 PM

One of the issues above barely touched on a major expense per vehicle.

When a big 3 employee is laid off, that worker does not go on unemployment. He goes to a job center where he is either retrained and placed in a new position or encouraged to do community service. As a layoff, he may never need to work another day in his life before his pension kicks in.

The problem is that there is no incentive to go back to work, at a vehicle assembly plant or elsewhere. When this benefit was negotiated, the US auto manufacturers led the world and the worry was retaining enough workers to be a labor pool when inevitible growths and contractions occurred. These people are still the first call when an employee is needed. Unfortunately, contractions are much more common than expansions and are likely to continue so.

I am a union rep but I can also see that some benefits, such as this one, no longer make economic sense. Society as a whole does not benefit from situations which do not encourage people to take the initiative. The workers also will not benefit if the company goes under.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 12:03 PM

Wasn't the guy who Home Depot paid tens of millions of dollars to get rid of, picked up by Chrysler for additional tens of millions of dollars?

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 11:58 AM

"I bought a Toyota Prius. I would've bought American"

But Toyota's are made in the U.S. .... in fact (it's possible) more of the components in U.S. assembled Toyota's are made in the U.S. while most of your good 'ol Ford's parts come from some other country.

I do agree ... the Big 3's big management don't deserve shit. They've pretty well lost the game. They'll blame it all on the unions, and target the pensioners.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 11:53 AM

Not quite true, in the UK we contribute towards our National Health Service, albeit the number of people benefiting from it far exceeds the amount paying in, so it is government subsidised.
The model I would prefer to see is, all contribute according to income, and benefit likewise. Those who can afford to contribute towards their treatment do so, those who can afford to pay the full amount do so, while those who can't afford to, got free treatment.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 11:38 AM

It could be that the cost of health care is at the root of the problem. American companies might not find it feasable to retool to make Toyota clones. In other industrialized nations, they have government paid health care systems.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 11:31 AM

"But the laws in this country have been slanted towards weakening the right of folks to collectively bargain for years."

While I agree with most of what you said Mick & completely disagree with Riginslinger. I want to add that the Big 3 don't deserve shit. I bought a Toyota Prius. I would've bought American if the reliability, fuel consumption (I get 55mpg)& price were there but they keep making shit that's drinks fuel & cost nearly what I have invested in my house. Shame on them for not competing with the foreign auto makers but that's not the fault of the workers, that's the appeal of the quick buck which is what they see as their short term goal anyway & fuck the long term, the hell with the consumer, piss on the enviorment, & make the workers pay for for it in the long term. Then they all want to go the way Chrysler did years back & have the government (US the tax payer) bail them out. Well fuck them & fuck the government. The government has a lot of balls to back their every play against their own employees & the American public, the enviorment & even their own consumers.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: PMB
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 11:27 AM

I thought the title referred to Genitally Modified soya beans going on strike.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Midchuck
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 11:12 AM

I don't disagree with most of what's been said, but I didn't see any mention of the decline in American car companys' profits being due in part to their insistence on concentrating on building vehicles too large for many Americans to afford, much less afford to buy gas for, and ceding the market for small, economical, but high-quality, cars to the Pacific Rim.

Not that executive compensation is not a big problem as well.

IMO.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 11:11 AM

I don't know enough about the GS strike to be able to comment about the specific issues involved. One thing I do know is that the cost of heath care continues to rise faster than the cost of just about anything else in the US (the reason for that could be the topic of another thread) and GM's profits are certainly not increasing at the same rate.

There are always two possible avenues in these situations: cut expenses and increase profits. Some possibilities for the former include decreasing the overall cost of health care for employees and retirees...and I expect the the hated middle managers would end up with theirs cut at least as much as the line employees'...,reducing the number of employees at all levels, and reducing salaries. I won't disagree that the rates of pay, including non-salary compensation, for top executives in private industry is obscene. I can't really speak to the issue of whether or not the number of middle-level managers in GM is appropriate. Having been one (in the Federal government), and having seen the way that most organizations have ruthlessly pruned their numbers over the past 15 years or so, I'm inclined to question the contention that their ranks are all that bloated.

One possible way to increase profits would be for GM - and the other US auto manufacturers - to start selling the same cars here as they do overseas. According to Bloomberg.com , the company's sales and profits are increasing rapidly outside of North America. Who wants to buy a contemporary GM vehicle unless you are a big truck freak (or need one for business)? The "little" Hummer (a tricked out Colorado pickup) starts at $30,000+!! I replaced my Chevy Blazer with a Subaru Forester this year, because GM discontinued the Blazer (and its clones), which were already too big, and replaced it with the TrailBlazer, which is even bigger with worse gas mileage.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Peace
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 11:04 AM

The problem is trade laws, not workers. Until such time as the US (and Canada, and England, etc) mirror the policies of the countries with whom they trade, the workers at home will keep getting fucked by the companies they work for.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 11:03 AM

kat - I think it's a bigger problem than that. The whole think is a lot like slavery. If you have large numbers of people working below what a realistic wage rate would be, industry has no motivation to modernize.

                  I think that's where agriculture is right now.

            I would also agree that executive salaries are obscene.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:55 AM

The problem is not enough worker bees!

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Peace
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:51 AM

America should be using a "mirror image" trade policy. It's not, and there's the rub.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:41 AM

Mick - I don't disagree with anything you say here.
I've never said I thought there was a problem with Latinos as people, or workers for that matter. The problems are almost entirely due to unworkable American laws.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:40 AM

When CEO's earn salaries 25 times that of the worker on the shop floor, when they get performance bonuses even when the firm does badly. When the dividends on shares are too high, and the shareholders are banks and insurance companies and not 'people', then you will always get greed winning over need every time.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:20 AM

Your examples don't say anything new and are demagogic, to say the least. The fact that there are latinos doing the work for less says more about the state of US labor law than about immigration. The latinos I work with daily have very strong pro labor sentiments. But the laws in this country have been slanted towards weakening the right of folks to collectively bargain for years. The fruit being borne of this crop is that it is easy for employers to circumvent the right to organize, and to take advantage of poor folks who need a job. The same phenemenom you describe occurs in West Michigan. But it is poor white kids that need a job that are working for next to nothing.

Next?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:14 AM

There used to be carpenter in California who were skilled and made very good wages. They were union and proud of it.

             If you go to a housing project in California now, you will see a stream of Latinos carrying lumber to a computerized cut-off saw, and a stream of Latinos carrying cut boards away from the saw. There will be one guy who knows what he's doing, walking around with a pencil marking where the boards go, and an army of Latinos with nail guns nailing them into place.

             The guy with the pencil and the guy running the saw still make good wages. Everybody else makes five to six dollars an hour, without benefits.

             I suspect there is computerized equipment in manufacturing plants as well.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 09:21 AM

You don't flood a modern workfloor with untrained, unskilled labor. Not if you want to stay in business longer than another twenty minutes. Not with literally millions and millions of dollars in computer-driven machinery, robotics, and the other things used to make today's automobiles.

Moreover, I think that labor, management, business, and government should keep the promises they made.

Japan, and other Asian countries, do not look at immediate profits. They look instead at market share -- "what will be your market share in five years? ten years?" and not, as in the US, "how much profit will you be making at the end of the first year and the third year?" Patience and a long term outlook will eventually overcome greed and a short time view.

For example, China is heavily into development assistance and loans to African countries. African countries have oil, copper, uranium.... This will pay off, handsomely, in ten years or so.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 09:06 AM

Ever heard of the maquilladora plants, Riginslinger? They already have moved plants south of the border.

And your assertion about illegal aliens is gratuitous at best. You always say it but provide nothing to back it up. There is an immigration problem, always has been. It is not worse now than ever. And it has nothing whatever to do with the GM strike.

Next?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 08:59 AM

Big Mick - Illegal aliens are a big part of the problem. Of course, a lot of it depends on how you define it, or how far down the foodchain you want to look.

                     I would agree that top level management get paid way more than they're worth. Nobody is worth that much money. But GM has laid off a large number of middle-management people, and at the end of the day, they have to compete in a global market.

                     They could move more of their plants to Mexico, then the workers wouldn't be illegal, but they'd be the same workers.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 08:43 AM

My point exactly, Giok. And the compensation of the few top exec's they have is no where near as outrageous as the US CEO's. That's why when they start that aul shite about taking care of the stockholders, I just hold my nose and look away.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 08:36 AM

In Japan the management is small, and eats in the same canteen as the work force. They know what's going on on the shop floor!
G

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 08:28 AM

Yeah, bILL, I would understand their desire to compete with the Japanese, if they matched them in the management staffing and perks. But they don't. They also don't provide company stores or any of the other perks the rank and file get in Japan.

The US worker is still the most productive in the world overall, and second most in terms of hours worked productivity. GM's profitability problems lie squarely in the upper halls, and they expect the rank and file to take the hit, and the retiree's who depend on a promised benefit that was fairly bargained for.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 08:22 AM

" The company is seeking to increase profitability on the backs of retired workers who were promised health care."

Thanks for that explanation Mick .... A fiend of mine retired 3 years ago from working 30+ years on the line at Chrysler in Windsor Ontario .... since then he has already seen some of his health benefits revoked, he is quite certain and very concerned his pension will be decreased in the future. A big hunk of the Big 3's "payroll" costs are now going to retirement payments and benefit costs. .... as Mick has mentioned these people are now the target of the over inflated management sector. The unions not only have to protect the workers but also the large segment of their baby boomer retirees.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 07:34 AM

Horseshit, Riginslinger. Illegal isn't the problem. What is the problem is legal trade laws that make it so US workers are not on a level playing field. When a country allows open borders with a country that allows the dumping of pollutants in the ground water, open chimneys that blast pollutants in the air, weak worker protection laws that allow companies to hurt their workers, and on top of that allows those countries to charge trade fees but we charge none....... all those "goodies" have a plus on the profit ledger. That's why American workers are getting hurt.

The strike is not complex. The company is seeking to increase profitability on the backs of retired workers who were promised health care. As is typical in negotiations, they want to go too far in the fix. And by the way, most analysts say the real reason GM isn't profitable is that it is bloated in the ranks of middle management. But when these things come up, they always try to make it out to be the rank and file.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 07:20 AM

"If you are seeking discussion on the strike, then discuss pertinent issues. If you are seeking discussion on illegal immigration, choose another thread title.?'


               Janie - I disagree completely with this observation. A lot of people would like to think they are separate issues, but they're really not.

               The New York Times article backs this up. It states that GM makes most of their profits from overseas operations. Cheap labor is cheap labor wherever you find it. Illegal immigration is driving the value of American labor down, out-sourcing does the same thing. The handwriting is on the wall.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 12:34 AM

And, just how badly do you want a vehicle?
What Janie said.

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Janie
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 12:12 AM

NY Times article with some info on the issues.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/25/business/25auto.html?ref=automobiles

Subject: RE: BS: GM Strike
From: Janie
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 11:58 PM

GM is not a likely candidate to routinely hire illegal aliens.

This particular strike and illegal immigration are entirely separate issues. There are many reasons why the UAW may not be able to keep it's members out for long on this one. But fear of job loss to illegal aliens is not one of them.

If you are seeking discussion on the strike, then discuss pertinent issues. If you are seeking discussion on illegal immigration, choose another thread title.

Janie

Subject: BS: GM Strike
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 10:32 PM

So there are twelve to thirteen million illegal aliens out there who would happily take the jobs of the striking GM workers for a fraction of what the company is paying now. What were they thinking?