BS: Killing the Brown Bear

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Alison M
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 08:17 AM

I am not one of those animal rights activists, but I truly do hate any sort of cruelty towards animals. They have a right to live as we do.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: kendall
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 07:56 AM

bears are becoming a nuisance...typical human statement. From THEIR perspective, WE are the nuisance! They didn't move in on us, we are taking over THEIR habitat.Many species are in dangered because they are being pushed out and they have no place to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 07:02 AM

"Fred Bear, a famous archer of years ago shot an elephant with a bow."

Well, I once shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I don't know.

Spaw......with thanks to Groucho and George S. Kaufman

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: gnu
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 06:08 AM

sIx. Chipman... well, I certainly stand corrected. As for the carbines, even though it is varmint season, most people do not want the wardens to see them with rifles because the wardens might suspect that they are poaching deer. Of course, that's simply nonsense. I know a lot of people in Chipman as my camp is a half hour away. They are poaching moose. (Just a joke. Actually, I suspect they were for protection against coyote and bear. I don't even go to the outhouse at night without my shotgun.)

If you are back in Chipman in October, I think you might see a few bows. Archery season for deer begins October 1, three weeks before gun season.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Grab
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 05:09 AM

I imagine just *hitting* the elephant is not the problem in that case, Kendall... ;-)

Graham.

(PS. Grammatical answer. "Rein" is what you use to steer a horse with. "Reign" is what kings do. "Rain" is what falls out of the sky when it's not pigeon droppings. So yes, it is "free rein", from letting a horse go where it wants.)

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 12:23 AM

I had lasagna with black bear meat once, it reminded me of liver. I'd been vegetarian for several years, though, so my perspective might have been warped. Perhaps that might be what's referred to as a "gamy" flavor?

The bear had broken into my friend's house outside Fairbanks, Alaska.

(I was not an anti-killing vegetarian, more an eat-lower-on-the-food-chain/ anti-industrial-farming one. Now I buy meat occasionally.)

Black bears are becoming an nuisance in New Jersey (where I grew up and my parents still live), as are deer. Things are pretty out of whack there (and many other places) and some controlled hunting is certainly necessary, but becoming politically more and more an untouchable topic. People are out of touch with the natural world and consequently their perspectives are out of whack too: the whacko hunters (going off to places where they're given free-rein to indulge macho fantasies, rather than hunting for functional needs) and the whacko anti-hunters are the sad result that make it hard to do the sensible management that's necessary.

~ Becky in Tucson

[Grammatical aside: Should that be rein or reign?? I've been seeing the latter lately, but the former makes more sense to me.]

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 10:00 PM

Fred Bear also took a tiger, a cheetah, and a lion with a bow.

I admit it: I'm no Fred Bear. I can hit a target with a bow and arrow, but I'm waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of practice and even way back when the target had to be pretty large.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: kendall
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 09:46 PM

Fred Bear, a famous archer of years ago shot an elephant with a bow.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: number 6
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 08:47 PM

gnu ... I was up in Chipman for the last 2 days .... from my observations I noticed they have evolved from using bows and arrows to single shot carbines.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 06:24 PM

Bear meant (I've never had any) is supposed to be something like pork. So, for that matter, is people meat (I've never had any of that, either). Bears and people actually have a lot in common -- they're both omnivores, for one thing.

(Pigs are too, and have internal functions and organs similar to those of humans and bears.)

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Willie-O
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 06:06 PM

That's pretty funny if we can get a New Brunswick feud going here between Six and Gnu. Don't kill each other lads! I can just see them standing at opposite sides of the Gondola Point ferry shaking oars and hurling fish at each other...

The spring bear hunt in Ontario was banned about ten years ago. Even the appallingly reactionary neo-con Mike Harris government, normally very pro-hunting, either had actual moral qualms about the very unsporting practice of finding bears just waking up from hibernation, baiting and blasting them, or, as is more widely believed, Harris & Co just wanted to throw a bone to the other side to say they did something humane. (There is still a fall bear hunt.)

Anyway, black bears have gotten considerably more common since then, so some still want to bring back the spring hunt. I've never heard of bow hunting bears here but apparently it is allowed. Yuck. (I am OK with bow hunting generally, I just don't think it's a fast enough kill for something as dangerous and tough as a bear.)   

From what I hear bear isn't the greatest eating anyway...

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 05:46 PM

Thank you Grab. Yes, I eat meat. Yes, I have killed my own meat. I can't kill anymore, but I do still butcher (then eat vegetarian for a few days)

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Grab
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 05:37 PM

Busbies certainly are, but then look at dress clothes in any society - they're always some archaic outfit that's traditional rather than practical.

Thansk Raedwulf and Spaw. Raedwulf, I don't think a proper hunter should be taking pleasure in the death (which is why the idea of those Victorian big-game hunters sickens me). In the stalk and the shot though, yes, and in the resulting food afterwards.

Food-wise though, I don't think there's anything "last-century" about it. If you eat meat, something dies in order that you can do so, and the supermarket culture can divorce you from that reality.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: gnu
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 05:29 PM

sIx... another century? Ah, yeah, kinda. All you have to do is drive thirty miles up the road from Saint John and see it... if that far. You have never been past Gondola Point? Hampton? Anywhere within ten miles of Sussex? Try Doaktown... Harcourt... and a hundred others here in our province.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: pdq
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 05:16 PM

...a bit off the topic, but worth looking at:

                                        Spirit Bear

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 04:39 PM

No, we are talking POOR people!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: number 6
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 04:25 PM

Buzbys ... bows and arrows ... putting meat on the table with a bow or gun ....

Are we talking about another century here???

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Raedwulf
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 04:13 PM

As to bow & arrow, in the opinion of an expert (Baron von Ahrenfeldt quoted by Robert Hardy in "Longbow"), the bow is more humane. He is expert on the grounds that he was a big game hunter with both firearms & bows (not recurves or compounds, either). An arrow wound will either kill, or it will heal; a gunshot wound can easily cripple. The skill of the wielder makes little difference in the former case, but can make a great deal of difference in the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Raedwulf
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 04:06 PM

The best contribution so far IMO (for what little that is worth!) is Grab's, but thank you also to Divis for not using this as another stick to beat the British with.

Wikipedia has something on the subject of busbys. As with many posters, I am in favour of necessary culls. From the Wiki, it would appear the Belgian Army does use synthetic fur, but that it is problematical.

For myself, I would be happier if I knew the British Army was using "needfully culled" skins. This notion of an "international auction" leaves me wondering where the skins for said auction come from. But if they were "needful", it proves added value to the death of the animal in queston.

Killing purely for pleasure is utterly abhorrent to me, & I question the state of mind of anyone who does so (whilst also recognising that taking pleasure in the "stalk" is by no means the same thing). However, if an animal must die, I would rather that as much benefit is made of that sacrifice as possible. Some may question whether a busby is "benefit", but to simply leave the carcass to rot seems to me to be disrepectful both to the life AND the death of any animal.

I think that if an animal must die, we should make the best & as much as possible of that death. So use its skin, eat it (bear meat used to be considered perfectly good game), use the bones for glue, & everything else that you can.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 04:01 PM

I'd have to retake Medieval Literature? I don't think I'm up to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: gnu
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 03:32 PM

Here's a thought... have EVERYONE take hunter education. Might belay some of the inane posts I have read on similar threads over the years.

As for "retaken", nope. That's just a bother. And, if the gummit gets that notion... well, you'll be paying through the nose the rest of your life to retake every course you ever had.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 03:20 PM

Exactly, gnu. I do know the details, and you're quite right.

I also think that some people simply shouldn't be allowed anything more than a rubber spoon, and a soft rubber one at that. I'm all in favor of hunter education courses for all ages, courses that would have to be periodically retaken.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: gnu
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 02:58 PM

Well, I know I shouldn't, but.... Bow and arrow, used properly are as humane as a firearm used properly. "Properly" means the animal never senses danger and never feels any pain. I am not getting into the details of either, but any true hunter will strive to meet these goals.

I now use a camera and a camcorder. But, I still know a bunch of lads that put meat on the table with bow and gun. Not everyone lives in the big city and can afford to pay someone else to put meat on their table.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:10 PM

Low density housing and other developments in relativly unspoilt areas are luxury that we can't afford.

Why do the army still have Bearskins? Tradition.

I heard a few people murdering the Black Bear earlier this afternoon. I rushed out to stop them, but pipers never listen....

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 11:08 AM

You're right about that, Ancient M.

There are slobs and fools out there, just as there are football hooligans. But the majority are sober, nice people who are genuinely interested in the outdoors and in conservation.

I wonder how many people realize that the greatest single threaat to wildlife, the one that far exceeds hunting or climate change, is loss of habitat?

"Loss of habitat" -- a euphemism for people taking the land the animals need to survive. Housing estates, shopping malls, highways, McMansions, dams, factories, mines and worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 10:18 AM

I am not a trophy hunter, but i do hunt. Anyone that knowingly kills a mother bear with cubs is not a hunter (Trophy or otherwise) they are arseholes. The only time you may shoot a bear with cubs is if it is attacking you. Of course the media would have you believe that all the hunters in the woods are drunk, shoot at sounds and kill for fun. Its pure unadulterated Bullshit!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 09:27 AM

By the way, unless you're very much an expert hunting ANY bear with a bow is stupid. Were I to hunt bear it would be with AT LEAST a .30-06 with 180-grain softpoint bullets, and preferably something bigger, like a .338 or .375.

Better yet, I'd like to stay home, sipping a nice drink and editing my photos of bears. As my brother once said, "If you're in the situation where you need a gun, you probably shouldn't be there." (Yes, I have such photos. There's one with a griz on one hillside and a black on the other. My wife took that a Yellowstone National Park a year or so ago. I also have bison, moose and others.)

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 09:07 AM

The Arctic people who kill animals for fur also use them for food -- it's not an "either/or" but and "and" situation. The hunters I know (and there are many) use all of the animal they can, and that can include the bones and "innards."

Those hunters also track wounded animals until they either find the animal and can "finish the job" or are completely certain that the animal will survive. This can mean following a blood trail for two or three days if necessary, knowing the indications of different "hits", and knowing the animal's habits. Gerber has come out with a special flashlight (usable in daylight!) that permits easier and more assured tracking of wounded animals.

I cannot understand those who would shoot any animal and then let it run off and die. That's not "human" and it's not, as the American Indians say, "honoring the spirit of the animal." If you are going to hunt, you owe it to the animal, to the concept of being human, and to the animal to do your best and if that means tracking a wounded animal for three days in the snow or hauling the body out of a canyon, so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: kendall
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 07:52 AM

I find it hard to believe that there could ever be over population of bears in North America. Elk, yes. Thanks to man and his "control" of wolves and bears. The Elk must be culled, otherwise, they starve because there are too many of them for their range.
They have reached the point where it is necessary to feed them because they have grown accustomed to our handouts. Kinda like our welfare system. Old Guy should like that remark.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 06:30 AM

You have it right there Graham. I hope you don't mind, but I find myself agreeing with you on several threads at the moment!

I was talking with a good friend who is an avid hunter and he too was appalled at this. I'm not anti-hunting nor am I anti-fur. I am pro conservation and sometimes that includes mucking about with animal populations.

When the argument was going on after the death of Steve Irwin, a lot of people were saying that he was a show-off and the best thing we could do was to let the animals completely alone. I'd be all for that except we have already screwed up their habitats with our own cultural "needs." Urban expansion and the like has removed much of their natural living and now we are in a bad situation.

Anyway......this bear business makes me wonder at just how far we'll go sometimes in our need to continue on with a tradition.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Grab
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 06:17 AM

There is a third reason - practical clothing. If you're living in Russia or Greenland, wearing animal fur is your only way of staying warm.

Since humans have buggered up the food chain, I'm totally in favour of controlled culls when animal populations start going out of control. The alternative is that we let them go out of control, destabilise the local food chain by eating everything and then have loads of them die of hunger. A controlled cull is a more merciful way of managing things, in the same way as putting an animal down is more merciful than leaving it lying in its own waste until it's half-eaten by worms and finally dies.

I don't have any problems with people taking part in the cull because they enjoy it, either. We evolved as a hunter species, and denying that is to deny who we are. That *doesn't* mean blasting at anything that moves though - we also evolved as an *intelligent* species and we've invented the concept of preventing unnecessary suffering to others, so blasting away at random when you're not sure of a kill is disgraceful. And in particular, it absolutely doesn't mean killing mothers with young and thereby killing the next generation, which is simply revolting.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 05:56 AM

I have nothing against tradition in this sense, but there has to be some form of simulated fur that can be used. It would be great to see them set an example.

I think it was the fact the guy in that report said they collect a few of the cubs that are left without a mother that got to me in that report. The cubs were crying like children and left to starve to death. This bastard was sitting up a tree with a bow and arrow, boasting to his friends after shooting one.

The reporter said it was shot in the back and ran off to die probably several weeks later. There is no defence of anyone doing that in the name of sport. I am not just saying this, but I would be happy to go on a weekend hunting trip, to hunt down these bastards and leave an arrow in their leg or arm as then ask them how it feels.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 04:44 AM

There are only two reasons to kill a wild animal, firstly to eat, and secondly, if it endangers your life, vanity ie. fur coats and hats is no reason it is a disgrace.

I'm a staunch traditionalist, but I'd rather see the Guards in plastic rain hats than dead bears.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 04:33 AM

The hunting fraternity the lowest form of humanity, I know I have met plenty of them, catch these thugs in an unguarded moment and they will boast of how many they have killed.
I seen that TV report I found it incredible that people could be so vicious.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 04:18 AM

theres no excuse for it really, is there.

my wife had a fur coat and they are lighter, more comfortable and warmer to wear than any any simulated fur.

However when the facts about the fur trade became known to us, she put it in the bin.

Some traditions just are not worthy of being handed on. In fact you have to be the one who bites the bullet and ditches them.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 02:54 AM

There ae plenty of Busbys for sale on ebay and with U.K. mititaria dealers. Why don't they just buy back these ones that were stolen from them. Killing these beautiful bears should be a crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 09:28 PM

Just out of curiousity, why do they still wear those hats? The US Army gave up similar sorts of headgear around 1800 (and I think that they used horsehair, not bear fur). The Dragoons pictured did use bearskin flaps for their saddle holsters, because it shed water very well and kept the "horse pistols" dry.

Seems to me that the "Busby" would be hot and damned uncomfortable, even as ceremonial headgear.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 07:45 PM

I'm not an activist on this or fur or anything but this is completely stupid. Using fur in this day and age with the current technologies is ridiculous. I have no good responses to the British Army types in charge who are making this demand..........

BRIT ARMY CLOWN: "We need real bear fur. Nothing else will do and it's traditional."

ME: "Yeah? Well fuck you."

I mean I know that's not too bright but anyone who would even consider this needs to be on the other end of the gun.

ME: "Now you just look right down that tube there and tell me when you see something coming out."

BLAM

ME: "Didn't see it huh? Okay....well...NEXT?"

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: gnu
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 07:34 PM

I apologize. My post above was a knee jerk reaction. It was unwarranted and uncalled for. Please ignore it as it doesn't apply to the posters to this thread.... yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 07:28 PM

"They tried fake fur but it doesn't stand up to being worn by all accounts"

That why the bears grow their own too... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: gnu
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 07:27 PM

Oh, fer fuck sakes. Here we go again. A few people know what they are talking about and the others ween. Canada knows what she is doing.

I have never taken a bear in my life. And, I have been walked down upon by more than one bear. Nobody here rips the guts out of cute little teddy bears. Grow the fuck up.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 07:17 PM

Thank you Rap. Saved me the trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 07:00 PM

If people are shooting sows in the Spring, that's bad. And I don't care where you are.

Let the British Army use whatever bearskins they can get. Better yet, make 'em shoot their own bears (legally, following the hunting regs).

I'm not an animal activist, and I have no objection to true, ethical, hunting. Heck, I'll do it again if I get the chance. But I am VERY MUCH against slobs and idiots out with guns blasting away. And I'm against "hunting preserves," including the Great Estates. If you want to hunt, you should hunt -- not gun down animals in a pen or pen-raised animals.

(Actually, for things like bears I'd give you no more than a three-round magazine -- or better yet, a single-shot muzzleloader.)

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: vectis
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 06:53 PM

They are black bears not brown and the army has (apparantly) just started to buy skins from culled bears again because they have run out of busbys. They tried fake fur but it doesn't stand up to being worn by all accounts.
The news report I saw stated that the army insisted on Spring culled bears because the fur was thicker. As this is the time when nursing mothers are out and desperately hungry then they are going to be easy targets. Canada needs to take charge of its own land and regain control from the cowboys or they'll be targeted by animal activists.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 05:59 PM

Alaska does not permit the taking of cubs OR of sows accompanied by cubs. "Cub" is defined as any Brown/Grizzly in the first or second years of life, or a black (including the cinammon and "blue" phases) in the first year of life. Moreover, you cannot sell, buy or barter ANY part of a bear except for "an article of handicraft made from the fur of a bear."

Since the Canadian Provinces weren't named I used Alaska as an example. The hunting regs are on-line.

Actually, almost every State or Province in the US and Canada is larger than the UK. The county I live in in Idaho is as large or larger than the state of Connecticut.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 05:30 PM

A couple of thoughts occur here, Divis.

I thought only trigger happy yahoos would stoop to shooting a female with cubs. So definitely not real hunters.

Not that I hold with killing by real hunters either, except when a cull is really necessary for population control.

The other thing is that I think I read somewhere that the Guards bearskins were actually not bear fur but Badger, and if true the protection law must have stopped that. So they may possibly already be fake fur.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 05:29 PM

I think, Divis, that the report might have been just a tad sensationalized. I'm not excusing slobs, but I don't find television to be the most unbiased media around.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 05:26 PM

I don't blame you. What a waste. Chalk it up to testosterone poisoning.

Subject: BS: Killing the Brown Bear
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 05:18 PM

Tonight on the ITN news there was a report on the number of Brown Bears being killed in Canada for their fur, or simlpy so called sport. It showed the cubs crying like little children, sadly most of them die when their mothers are shot.

The report said the area shown tonight was larger than the U.K.The report also said the hunters are mostly Americans up for a sporting weekend. Most of the fur is sold in Europe, some used for bearskins for British Guards Regiments (No Keith I am not having a go at the British army). Could they not use fake fur ?

Christ how I would love to get just a half an hour alone with a brain dead bastard that could kill such a beautiful animal.The report really got to me.