BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen

Subject: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Stu
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 10:41 AM

It has been suggested school kids should take an oath of allegiance to Kaiser Liz and her kin in order to be classed as properly 'British'.

Well, like most people on these islands, my ancestors came across the land bridge at the end of the last ice age and settled in our beautiful valleys and plains, high moors and fells, cool green forests and warm shady glades. They worshipped the mighty oaks and deep brooding rivers, the bright lochs, mere, tarns and lakes in the high-walled cwms and cirques.

The raised the mighty dolmens and cromlechs, barrows and mounds that housed their chiefs and priests, warriors and ordinary men, women and children. They built long stone avenues and the ageless stone circles we still see in our modern landscape - places where millions of people go to feel and understand this insatiable curiosity we have about the ancestor.

They were here before the Celts, Romans, Saxons, Jute, Franks, Angels, Danes, and Normans. They were no English, Welsh, Irish or Scots - they were all of these people yet they were none too - they were us, and they revelled in their diversity and absorbed the best parts of the cultures they came into contact with.

Why swear an oath to someone as transient and meaningless as one of the families whose contribution to the life of these islands has been one of conquest, exploitation and division of the ordinary people who have lived here since the start? Bollocks to that.

Say no to the oath for school kids, immigrants, soldiers, sailors, airmen and women - in fact for everyone. Just love the land itself and these oaths are shown as the meaningless waffle they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:05 AM

Bloody rediculous!!

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:09 AM

The scouts have always had this one for years. "I promise to do my best to do my duty to God and to the Queen" - theoretically anyway it's voluntary but no one told me all those years ago.

I remember I made a mental reservation that it wasn't the Queen of England I had in mind, and just in came, held my finger's a quarter of an inch detached from the Union Jack. And of course "my duty" is open to a range of interpretations... That's a Jesuit education for you.

Mind, this one they are on about is a bit more specific, talking about "Queen Elizabeth" and all. But "allegiance", now, that could give room for mental manoeuvre.

Anyway, it all sounds very un-British to me, swearing oaths of allegiance and so forth. The kind of embarrassing thing people do in other countries. I can't see it happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:10 AM

I can see why one might not wish to swear an oath to the queen.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:13 AM

Do kids in England/British Isles/United Kingdom have to say anything similar to our Pledge of Allegiance here in the United States? A pledge of loyality to the country as opposed to a person?

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:16 AM

"I pledge allegiance to the Planet Earth . . .".

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:49 AM

I thought Freddy Mercury was dead ? so why swear at him now ?

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:51 AM

Council tax and student fee rebates are suggested for people who volunteer - as well as a "Britishness" public holiday.

Sounds a bit like bribery!

I like the idea of supporting our country and respecting our culture but this is not the way to do it. Swearing an oath to the Queen would put some people off and others would just do it for the rebates!

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:55 AM

Load of bloody nonsense.Swearing allegiance indeed. I would have thought the essence of Britishness lies in our our not having this ludicrous kind of claptrap.What do they think we are, foreigners?

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 12:01 PM

That was brilliant Stig.

I couldn't be in more accord with your thinking.
If humanity could only find its way back to that "golden age", but I fear it's much too late...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 12:27 PM

"What do they think we are, foreigners?"

Actually Greg - we folks here in the United States have always considered you foreigners. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 12:44 PM

No, no, I don't think I'll do that. I once took an oath to support the Constitution of the US, though. And as a Boy Scout I took one "to God and my country."

No, I think maybe I'll swear an oath AT the Queen instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 12:48 PM

before you decide think........
are you lucky punk ....?

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: gnomad
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 12:50 PM

I have seldom heard a more repugnant and un-British suggestion seriously advanced.

Some politician who was on radio4 this morning supporting the idea (I suspect it was Goldsmith, but I'm not sure) was saying he could see no problem for a republican to make such an oath. I can only think that that reflects on the (lack of) sincerity with which a typical politician invests the making of an oath.

WesleyS: No, we have no equivalent to the US Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, I suspect that many in Britain view it as one of the things that make our countries so different. Probably a subject for another thread really, but how did something written by a staffer for a boys magazine in the late 1800s (to celebrate Columbus Day) become such an integral part of a nation's daily life?

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 12:51 PM

It seems perfectly reasonable for those who want to joint us to have to agree to the rules of the club.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 01:07 PM

I'll swear an oath:

Bugger the Queen.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 01:08 PM

*

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 01:10 PM

Swearing an oath to the Queen is part of the Canadian Citizenship process for landed immigrants.
Two weeks ago it was ruled out of order by the supreme court so I expect that Canada will now see a spike in the numbers of those wishing to take on Canadian Citizenship.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: IanC
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 01:15 PM

In 1662, the Quaker Act was passed in England and Wales. One of the clauses of this act made it treasonable not to swear an oath of allegiance to the king.

This was used by their enemies to imprison Quakers and steal their possessions, as Quakers didn't swear oaths.

They still don't. I'm English and a Quaker. How do you think I, or my children might feel about this bit of stupidity?

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 01:55 PM

oh dear me! Now that has put the pidgeon amongst the 'cats!

I don't think the Queen is quite so popular as she may have been years ago.

I'm sorry, Ma'am but I'm not going to say anything and neither will my children.

Sal

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 01:56 PM

Be against it!

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: gnu
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 02:05 PM

I am for world, Peace!

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 02:24 PM

Enough holiday snaps Bruce.....!

I agree with everyone else, its UnEnglish in the extreme.

Theres this bit in King Lear, where Kent has been trying to reason with the daft old bugger. Lear snarls, On your allegiance!
Poor old Kent has to fall down to his knees to show how he subordinates himself to his monarch and what he says is not treasonable.

Do we really need all this bollocks in today's world. A lot of people don't even have allegiance to the sex they are born into, let alone the queen and the duke.

I think we have moved on, and we don't need to plant bombs and declaim oaths to prove how devout we are about our country and its spiritual life - we are more sophisticated. Those of us with a bit of sense, value what we've got. Enough said.

I suspect most of us would fight and die for our freedoms, but lets not get prissy about it. perhaps we wouldn't. In any case we don't want the nobs PRESUMING that we will, and starting wars willy nilly.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 02:36 PM

There's been various ponderous articles and speeches recently about what Gordon Brown refers to as "British values" and trying to identify what these might be.

It strikes me the best way might be to work out what aspects of other countries tend to be seen as daft or offensive. Pledges of allegiance would be very high on such a list.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 03:00 PM

Emma, that can't be The Queen....NO hat!

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 03:02 PM

I think it is high time, we bought back the times when we stood to attention at the end of every show/match/film etc and listen to the National Anthem.
Anybody disobeying to be taken away and shot.

That will sort it.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 03:05 PM

Good plan but will it be "Flower of Scotland" or "Scots wha hae"?

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 03:09 PM

No Jim

Swing Low Sweet Elizabeth
Coming Forth to Deliver Us Home

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Les from Hull
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 03:18 PM

All this swearing allegiance sounds a bit 'Nuremburg Rally' to me. And what difference would it make to anything? 'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel' said Dr Samuel Johnson. I tend to agree. Why not just attempt to teach our children some decent values and not try to wrap them up in a flag?

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Penny S.
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 03:37 PM

To Wat Tyler, Jack Straw (the other one), John Ball, Jack Cade, Michael An Gof and his mate the Truro lawyer whose name keeps slipping out of my head, the leaders of the Pilgrimage of Grace, and all the others who have felt the need not to show allegiance to a person, but to the idea of British liberty.

The only good thing about the Royal Family is that they are not Blair, Brown, Thatcher or whoever else actually wants the job.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 03:42 PM

I know this has been proposed - but what's the chance it will actually become law? And how would it be inforced?

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: PeadarOfPortsmouth
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 03:55 PM

I was a guest at my first Robbie Burns Night this year and I couldn't help but notice a glaring contradiction:

All night, the speakers would make jokes about "aye, be on guard, for there may be an Englishman about"...and yet they toasted the Queen.

Of course, I joked that my mum's family is Irish and there was never any ambiguity about where the Queen stood when I was growing up. ;-)

(Then again, my dad's family is English and he used to playfully taunt my grandparents that he was the "fruit of Cromwell's loins." It's good to laugh.)

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 04:39 PM

I will neither bow nor curtsy to the Queen of England. As an American citizen I don't gotta. Instead I would make a slight nod, grab her hand, and while shaking it ask, "So, how's it hangin', Queenie?"

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 04:54 PM

I'd say Freddie Mercury probably did swear at lesions ...

... and he remained loyal to queen till the very end ...

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Les from Hull
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 04:55 PM

Why do you lot keep calling her 'the Queen of England'? It's a bit like saying Bush is President of New York!

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 05:04 PM

What should she be called? And be nice....

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 05:04 PM

Well, there's some history to calling the British Monarch "King/Queen of England"; they've ruled over England dating back to the days before the UK (before the K was U).

The office of President of the US, on the other hand, was never attached to any single state, New York or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 05:08 PM

No, Les, Bush is President of Florida, where his brother was Reichsfuehrer.

CC

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: fat B****rd
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 05:22 PM

You'd think with the state of the UK that MP's would have better things to get steamed up about.
PS Lovely legs, Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 05:42 PM

Well the way the Welsh and Scots get all the privelages that the English do not get, it might just as well be Queen of England. Then we can stop all subsidies to the above mentioned places.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: fat B****rd
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 05:46 PM

Keep your greedy paws off my subsidies, Les.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 05:47 PM

It ought to be Queen of Scots anyway rather than Queen of Scotland anyway - they only dropped that title with the Act of Union in 1707, and that doesn't apply any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 06:02 PM

We will get you back to England yet Les. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 06:29 PM

You mean South Scotland, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 06:35 PM

No, Magrath, Act of Union 1707 still in force.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Les from Hull
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 08:17 PM

Wesley - on the subject of what to call 'the Queen', we can usually manage with 'the Queen'. I should be able to call her 'cousin', 'cos my grandma's maiden name was Windsor. But we've had that name a lot longer than her family has!

For those few people who don't have her someway involved as 'Head of State' you could call her "Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith", or you could call her Mrs Mountbatten (the name that her husband changed his to (he must have been getting writer's cramp writing Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg). By another of those strange anachronisms that we seem to do so well, you could call her Duke of Lancaster (yes she's a female Duke), Lord of Man (in the Isle of Man) or Duke of Normandy (in the Channel Isles).

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 08:36 PM

...former Attorney General Lord Goldsmith The man who made a U turn, and gave a legal fig leaf to the British Government to cover the war on Iraq (in the teeth of virtually all legal experts who said it was plainly illegal). And later called a halt to prosecutions against a British arms company for secretly paying £1bn to Saudi prince as a bribe.

Just the man to consult about what kind of "British values" are seen as worth encouraging...

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 09:29 PM

I have no problem with an oath of allegiance to a nation, but I would slit my own throat before I'd swear an oath to a person.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Greg B
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:18 PM

Why anybody would promise allegiance to Freddy Mercury, I do not know.

He had an incredible voice, was a great arranger, but he's dead, man.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:33 AM

Well, I did that thing, long ago. When I joined the army, it was a requirement, and I swore and signed an oath of allegiance to the Queen as head of the armed forces. It never caused me any loss of sleep. Nor did the fact that I lost the right to vote, being a soldier.
Later on I embraced republican ideas (that's English, not American, republican) But there is a lot to be admired about a benevolent monarchy. You don't get daft presidents, for one thing.

I would swear an oath of support to a country, but not to a head of state, now.