Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 11:03 PM

"Steve Baughman, do you drink coffee or eat chocolate? "

Umm. . . . no to coffee, kind of to chocolate. I'm scared that this is a trap.   Getting worried.   Go easy on me.

sb

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 11:03 PM

It is always good to find out more about what has happened in history, and what historical figures have done--

In the course of this discussion, I've gotten to know more about Newton than I did-- (apart from details on his slaving, which I'd known about, I've learned about his relationships with Wilberforce and Cowper, and about his evangelical work, etc) I have also learned more about how the commerce in slavery operated(particularly about how the trading of arms fit into it), and I have read some first person accounts of the massacre of Indians and Chinese in California, and refreshed my memory on Junipero Serra---

All in all, a curious, but worthwhile excercise in revulsion.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 12:05 AM

Sitz em leben.<(I hope that's right. It's been a while) It really is difficult to look back in time with 20th/21st century enlightenment. We somehow assume those people had our understanding, should have known our ethics (much of which is still disputed to this day in many sectors). Junipero Serra was on a mission from God, i.e. from the Holy Roman Church, from the Pope and right on down the hierarchy to what? Enslave the Indians? That may have been the effect but his mission was to teach them the enlightened way of the Europeans, the Christians. He would civilize them. His heart was right. Had he not had such a burden for the poor heathen he would have stayed home, taught college, designed flying machines or some other useful thing.

Have you ever noticed that after some time has lapsed after losing a loved one, in most cases, you tend to remember the good things about the person and not the really annoying or bad things? It just kind of happens. We want good things and good memories and we tend to remember and focus on the positive contributions of the departed. Well, unless they were really vile beings like the above stated A. Hitler. The negative instances become cautionary examples. A good historian tries for accuracy in ALL aspects of an event or era but as for evaluating the same he/we all should look for the positive contributions, don't you think? And not toss the good on the scrap heap because of some human foible which we are ALL susceptible .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 07:46 AM

http://vision.ucsd.edu/~kbranson/stopchocolateslavery/
Are you willing to give it up on this basis?
If you are, then more power to you, but if you won't, when this is a very small thing, then it is ridiculous to expect Newton to have given up his entire wealth.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 09:44 AM

Slag--Here is a nice summary of the genocide that Junipero Serra supervised.Indian Country Diaries, California Genocide


I lifted this little comment, with a cited quote, from Lies I was Raised With--which is a long and meandering essay about the Native American Genocide written by an activist who once attended Junipero Serra Elementary School in Ventura--

>Serra's legacy was the death of at least half of California's native population, and a much >greater extermination rate in mission country, of around 90%.

>The authors of Indians, Franciscans, and Spanish Colonization stated,

>"Indian demographic collapse in the missions was not intended but intentional, since >Franciscan congregación [forcing the Indians into the missions and keeping them there under >force - Ed.] continued despite the negative impacts on Indians even though one civil official, >governor Diego de Borica in the 1790s, identified the problem and suggested solutions never i>mplemented by the Franciscans."[55] 

Whatever was in Father Serra's heart, it doesn't excuse genocide--and, even by the standards of his time, his treatment of the Native population wasn't simple a "human foible"---

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: MaineDog
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 10:08 AM

All Christians are black sinners before they get converted, and most do not get cleaned up right away.
The blackest sinner is the one who denies any sin.
God can use black sinners like us to get His message out. Do you think Newton is the only corrupt Christian that ever was?
The GOOD NEWS is that we can be saved, and imperfect people can help.
"Amazing Grace" is an important part of Christianity as well as folk music, so it will survive--forever.
MD

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Green Man
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 10:54 AM

Thi song should be 'Amazing Race' those of you who know me will know why.

;-)

GM

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 02:02 PM

This has been an interesting thread and I see validity in both sides of the issue. I'm not a Christian but I have always loved this hymn. At the graveside service for my brother I had my son take his boombox off into the woods and play a bagpipe recording of it from an unseen distance. I'm not sure if I would now, knowing what I know about the man who wrote it. Now I understand that in the 18th century being a pious Christian did not necessarily make you an abolishonist.
Many actually believed that by capturing and Christianizing the African "heathens" they were saving their souls, even as they enslaved their bodies. Some even pointed to a supposed biblical ordination of the enslavement of the black race: Gods imposition of that punishment on "the sons of Ham" after he derided his father Noah for his naked drunkenness. Hamite was a synonym for a black person well into the 19th century. That being said there does seem to be a certain amount of hypocrisy at play when a man speaks out publicly against an institution while profitting from it. He surely was aware of its brutality having been so closely involved with its practice.
    I find it hard to separate my personal feelings on a work of art from the integrity of its author. It's like when I discovered that Jack London was a racist. And I've never been able to enjoy the works of Wagner since learning of his anti-semitism, even if the conductor of the Israeli philharmonic has decided they're okay.(Beethoven is a different story. You can't fault him if some genocidal madman comes along well after his passing and enjoys his music.) Sometimes knowledge can be heartbreaking but it is still important to acquire it. Works of technology (i.e. driving your Volkswagon on the autobahn or DNA research in light of the recent racist propagandizing by James D. Watson) don't necessarily invoke the same feeling and it IS a personal feeling I'm describing. I certainly wouldn't try to stop anyone else from performing or enjoying "Amazing Grace". I'm just saying that I'll never hear it again without a certain reservation.
    On a lighter note I must disagree with artbrooks and Kim C. I've always thought "Amazing Grace" is the only song that SHOULD be allowed on the bagpipes, but don't tell my wife I said so. She loves the blasted instrument. ;^)
                           Neil

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 02:21 PM

"Many actually believed that by capturing and Christianizing the African "heathens" they were saving their souls . . . ."

For the most part, slave-traders neither 'captured' slaves nor cared much about the condition of their captives' souls. It was a business, a rotten business, and one that enriched Europeans, Africans and Arabs. The anti-slavery sentiment that fortified the abolitionist movement was indeed something new under the sun.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve baughman
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 05:43 PM

I have long been convinced that religion serves largely to justify folks in the pursuit of self-interest. God wants you to have what you want. So going and getting it is good, even if that means killing natives, trading slaves, buying stock in chocolate companies, accumulating wealth while your neighbors suffer, etc etc. The "prosperity preachers" of today are the most obvious symbols of this, but the phenomenon is ubiquitous.

Let's face it, people create God in their own image. Conservative Christians love the death penalty, war in Iraq, discrimination against gays, etc etc etc, and. . . lo and behold, so does God. Conservative Muslims hate America, and . . . so does Allah. Southerners used the biblical "Sons of Ham" (as Neill notes) to justify extreme exploitation of black people. The list is endless.

QUESTION: When has religious conviction ever substantially changed the behavior of a society for the better? When has it ever caused a society to forego empire, conquest, war, even though it believed that such actions would enhance their power? The only place I can think of might be Tibet, which stuck and strikes me as full of people with more than a nominal commitment to sacrificing for principle.

All this talk about Christians being "forgiven" seems to me vapid. Perhaps fogiveness gets you some better treatment in the afterlife (though Christians only pretend to know that) but it sure doesn't seem to make much difference to pre-mortem behavior.

If we could all be atheists we'd start holding ourselves accountable for our actions. That's when moral progress might take off. (Yeah, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc, were atheists, but they were commited to a Higher Ideology of the sort that skeptical thinkers would not be likely to embrace.)

Wow! I didn't mention Amazing Grace in this entire message. Maybe I'm getting over it!

sb

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 06:03 PM

Steve, three words:

Martin Luther King.

Some religious folks, and even religious leaders, actually manage to practive what they preach ~ albeit not many. It's the exception rather than the rule, granted ~ maybe it's the exception the "proves" the rule.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 06:22 PM

Steve--Before you get too carried away with you anti-relgious rants, check Matthew White's 30 Worst Attrocities of the 20th Century. And check some of the website it is a part of--which provides information on all the war/genocide/democide(government caused deaths) of the 20th Century. You'll find that the Atheists are way ahead (though the Christians get credit for their still impressive work)--

Looking at the numbers, one suspects that, though human-kind was able to utilize religious institutions for the work of large scale murder, the elimination of religion )really opened the floodgates. One tends to think that religion may have at least moderated the tendency that we've acted out since the days of Cain and Abel--

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 06:41 PM

"When has religious conviction ever substantially changed the behavior of a society for the better?"

Glad you asked, Steve. Let's see, off the top of my head . . . I'd say that the largely Christian abolitionist movement certainly changed 'society' for the better.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 07:03 PM

Excellent points. But please read the question.

QUESTION: When has religious conviction ever substantially changed the behavior of a society for the better? When has it ever caused a society to forego empire, conquest, war, even though it believed that such actions would enhance their power?

Ted, you're right, lots of bad stuff NOT in the name of religion, in fact most of it in the last century, but that's probably cos the 20th was the first century when there actually were lots of non-religious people around, coupled with lots of revolutions. (Just ordered a book on the Christian origins of National Socialism, if I get it read before this thread dies I'll report).

In any event, I don't think a scorecard is helpful. I'm asking for evidence of religious principles causing a society at large to forgoe nasty stuff that it could otherwise do to advance its power interests.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,tda
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 07:09 PM

Steve, the whole idea of a religion is that you are held accountable before your god for what you have done here. If you believe in an afterlife, you won't want to screw it up by your actions here. There are many bad Christians, Moslems, Jews, Buddhists, pagans, etc., who do not live their religion, even if they profess a fanatical adherence to certain aspects of it. There are plenty of atheists like that too, so really, we are talking about a flaw of human nature, not religion.

BTW, what do you say about chocolate, as we need to practice what we preach, and not get upset over whether or not someone who died 200 years ago did.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 08:23 PM

M.Ted, Yes, you are making my point. I have studied Junipero Serra and have make a study of the California Indians, the Yokuts tribes in particular as they were native to my area and of Father Garcia who operated in my area. This was the time of the Inquisition. The views on individual lives didn't bode well for the temporal. What we see as twisted and tortured logic was straight and clear to those of the day. It IS hard to grasp what these people were thinking. A time of pillories, flogging, public executions and other horrendous practices. And if, in that day, you somehow saw things different from the norm you had best keep it to your self. The powers that were, were above reproach. Bold were those who pushed the Reformation. They weren't perfect either. When you read John Calvin's writings or Martin Luther, Zwingli, etc. you marvel at the venom and vitriol of persons and institutions with which they disagreed. You are doing exactly what I was trying to point out. You are judging these folks through your own standard of morality. You must understand THEIR standard before you can make a meaningful judgment.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 10:20 PM

"BTW, what do you say about chocolate, as we need to practice what we preach, and not get upset over whether or not someone who died 200 years ago did."   Guest tda

Okay, I went to the chocolate site you mentioned. Interesting. I suppose the same reasons that lead one to quit chocolate should lead one to quit wearing Nike shoes, stop consuming fossil fuels, boycott nearly everything from Chinese factories, and assume a monastic existence off the grid with a small vegetable garden in the back. This would be crippling to most of us non-saintly types.

I think a more realistic goal is compassionate consumption with an awareness that our spending habits have worldwide implications, that "the personal really is political." This might mean shopping at a co-op run by politically minded folks who research the origins of the stuff they buy so that you don't have to, buying Green when possible, recycling, giving up meat, or at least substantially cutting back on it, not beating people up, and NEVER voting Republican. All of this can be realistically incorporated by each of us into our lives. If we do so, the world becomes a slightly better place, even if we continue occasionally to sin with the odd Hersheys Kiss.

On a separate note, damn!!! Michael, you sent your reply to my QUESTION just as I was writing my complaint about nobody replying to my QUESTION. So it looks like I was ignoring you. Good point about Christians and abolitionism.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 10:31 PM

Whether I understand or appreciate their standards is a moot point. I don't have to understand their standards in order to come to my own conclusions about what they did. I am entitled to do that, and, in fact, according to many schools of thought, I am obliged to do that.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 10:33 PM

And, by the way, we still live in "A time of pillories, flogging, public executions and other horrendous practices."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 11:25 PM

More thoughts on Steve's question--a cursory reading of the Old Testament seems to show that the children of Abraham were a pretty disorderly bunch until Moses got them into line with the laws and all. Since then, they've tended to be pretty straight up, so I am going to step up and say that Judaism has worked out pretty well--

As to the Arabs(also children of Abraham), you pretty much have to figure that, given that the laws in the Koran are so strict, they must have been really over the top for Allah to come down so hard on them. I know it looks bad in the Middle East now, but most Muslims keep themselves together pretty well--think of how bad it would be if there were no Koran, and everyone was drunk all the time--

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: GUEST,David
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:59 AM

Many Jews that I know won't listen to Wagner because he was an anti-semite, and his music became hitler's favorite.    I have no great love for Wagnerian opera,   but the music, I believe, stands on its own.    I have no doubt that many of the world's historically great works of art and architecture were produced with the labor of people working under virtually slave-like conditions.    Should we reject their obvious beauty?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:16 AM

right, that's enough of "Amazing Grace".

Let's discuss Steve Baughman's beautiful Orkney Tuning instead ...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,tda
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 04:56 AM

Arabia before Muhammad was in a horrible state, and one of the practices that Islam put a stop to was that of murdering your baby girl.

"This would be crippling to most of us non-saintly types" ooh, but Newton ought to have crippled himself. Right.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 11:55 AM

As to the Atheism of Stalin, George Bernard Shaw once said that Soviet style "communism" was not Atheistic. They had simply replaced Christianity and Judaism with a new religion he called Statism.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:24 PM

So religion is to blame when religious people do wrong, and religion is also to blame when athiests do wrong(?) . . . .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:55 PM

I made it 4/5s of the way thru this thread before i saw the same arguments being repated a few times.

GUEST,Steve Baughman - for an interesting take on newton's true influence on the Abolitionist movement in England - watch the admittedly "feel-good" movie called AMAZING GRACE (imagine that!) which is all about Wilberforce and his life's work. Newton may have taken some time to extricate himself from the business of transport of salves. However, his later life as a cleric and his profound influnce an a young William Wilberforce had a direct effect on the latter's tireless committment towards ending slavery in his lifetime.

The film simplifies things yes, but it shows you that it wasn't the writing of Amazing Grace or Newton's dramtaic conversion that led to sneaky round about manuvering that resulted in the defacto abolution of slave trading in the UK - it was his influence on a boy that did it. By the time Wilberforce grew up to get invloved in government, this influence led him to have his own moment ot or two of being so close to God he could feel it and what he grasped in those moments was that his life was to be given over to the work of abolishing the slave trade.

Whether slavery was right or wrong had not been widely and openly debated at that time. it was deemed an economic "necessity" and polite company didn't discuss it. Wilberforce and his colleagues (who were even more radical than he) spent over 20 years forcing the discussion to take place.   

I would suggest that to answer the question for yourself of whether or not Amazing Grace is a moral song necessitates you delving a little deeper into the events and personalities that led to the abolition of slavery within the UK and territories controlled by the UK . I say this because it is only through reading about Newton's relationship with Wilberforce and then about Wilberforces life and struggle to edn slavery that you can grasp the full impact that newton and his song had on the growing recognition that slavery was an evil that could no longer be tolerated.

Watch the movie first for a quick primer - you can get it from netlfix.

Then, choose a good book on Wilberforce and read it.

You won't be sorry - it's a wonderful story that will at times disgust you when you read who was for continuing the salve trade and why. However, it is thrilling because in the end it was the combination of sheer force of will (wilberforce) and political cunning (his allies) that got the deed done. it almost makes you believe that with the right people in office, our own generation can turn things around. (almost but not quite!)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:11 PM

"think of how bad it would be if there were no Koran, and everyone was drunk all the time-- " False choice. How about no Koran and we're all compassionate atheists working for a better world, and only drunk some of the time, (and never when we're driving)? Sounds way better to me.

"This would be crippling to most of us non-saintly types" ooh, but Newton ought to have crippled himself. Right."          GUEST tda, you're being silly. I have gathered that you are clever enough to see differences of degree between earning lots of money from kidnap, murder and enslavement, on the one hand, and occasionally purchasing food and clothing that was produced by exploited people. Tell me you see that and that you were just not thinking straight in your last post. Or else I'll worry about you.

"So religion is to blame when religious people do wrong, and religion is also to blame when athiests do wrong(?) . . . . " Michael, I'm not sure I'm really blaming religion for very much. I am saying that it offers a convenient justification for self-interested behavior and that it has a very poor record of making people better people, (notwithdstanding some of the examples above. And even in those, one wonders whether it was the religious belief that caused the nice behavior. I do not know, for instance. if people were abolitionists BECAUSE they were Christians, or abolitionists who happened to be Christians.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:14 PM

Thanks, Dave's Wife. Good thoughts.
sb

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 02:57 PM

GUEST,Steve Baughman - I'm glad you appreciated my comments for what they were. It's not wrong to revisit the past or to ask questions about widely held beliefs about the past, a historical figure and the prevailing opinion of that person.

Historical revisionism is certianly not without it's faults mind you. I come at this from a background in Anthropology. In my academic career, I saw more than a few lazy researchers choose to root through a past researchers work like a wild hog in a jerusalum artichoke patch rather than go into the field and do their own work. But then, there are those folks who dare us to take a second look at sainted figures such as Margaret Meade for example and face the facts that she embellished a lot of her informants' testimony or simply made it up as she went along to fit the view she had already decided upon. The damage she did is imeasurably.

ANother field that both suffers and gains from this is Biblical Archeology. An entire field of naysaying things like the Exodus, the existence of King David or Solomon has sprung up from revisionism and it isn't based on actual field data but rather some new wave interpretation of existing data. They clash with the religiously motivated literalists who see the Bible as an exact reference source. What got lost in all this was the more sensible middle road that used real physical finds to show that some of these events likely indeed took place.

So - sure - ask those questions. Ask them of yourself since you're the one who is trying to decide if you should sing it. But before you make up your mind, do the work necessary. It's not easy to know what that work is at first because of the legends and popular history tha gets repeated about the songs creation. Therefore you have to go to if not primary sources such as the writings of Wilberforce or Newton themselves, at least find good secondary sources or crtically well-received contemporary reviews of their lives and lifes works.

The movie I mentioned is a good start only because it's entertaining and it will introduce you to important players in the story that you may not have heard of before. it will give you a basic understanding of the times and what these men faced by way of opposition from the aristocracy and the Prince Regent.

After viewing the film and the extras on the DVD, you can then check out the wikipedia entries and see the suggested readings. That ought to be a good running start.

Good luck and let us know what you think after you've seen the film. I'd love to hear that!

And.. don't be a stranger here. This has been a good lively discussion

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:19 PM

P-P-P-L-L-L-L-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-R-R-R-R-P-P-P-T-T-T-T-H!!!!!!!!!!!


(Just picture me putting my thumbs in my ears and sticking out my tongue now, and wiggling my fingeres, and I think you'll have it...)

(comment is directed at thread and its general premise)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,tda
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 04:58 PM

I'd suggest reading both the Quran and a good history of Arabia around Muhamad's time. The teachings of Islam were, and are, very compassionate.

Please show me an example where atheism made a man better. Were they good because they were atheists, or perhaps they were good people who just happened to be atheists.
Nobody is claimning that religion equals instantaneous goodness. If a person follows what he believes, it improves him. The abolitionists are a good case in point.

What I meant by refering to choclate, was that if we refuse to change even something small, that doesn't hurt us much in the grand scheme of things, it's a bit rich to go criticisng others, especially when they lived in a different time, with a different outlook.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 06:07 PM

"How about no Koran and we're all compassionate atheists working for a better world, and only drunk some of the time, (and never when we're driving)? Sounds way better to me--"

There is nothing about "atheism" that makes people compassionate--so how you'll manage that is beyond me--and, sad to say, some people get really nasty when they're drunk, so that's no help either. And the whole idea of "atheism" is really a bit dodgy--

"Atheism" relates to one thing only, and that is the existance of God-- so why define yourself in terms of something doesn't exist? It's an oxymoron.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 10:00 PM

"There is nothing about "atheism" that makes people compassionate--so how you'll manage that is beyond me--and, sad to say, some people get really nasty when they're drunk, so that's no help either." Ted.

Um . . . some people get really nasty when they get religion.

But Ted, I fear you are not well read in this area. As atheists, we believe that we have one life here, that suffering serves no grander purpose, and that injustice will never be rectified in the hereafter. Atheism therefore inclines us more towards compassion for sufferers than does a religion that believes 1) God is in control 2) suffering serves the cause of soul building 3) injustice will be rectified in the end, 4) God punished the dirty bastards and he would only have done so if they had deserved it, 5) blah blah blah, [enter favorite theodicy theory.]

For me, an atheist, every lost life is a permanent loss of staggering proportions. For the Christian or Moslems it's AT WORST a temporary setback, and it may even be a good thing if God willed it.

FURTHERMORE, Atheism encourages us to see our fellow creatures as the frail, suffering-prone creatures that they are, and to have sympathy for even the worst of them. No matter how badly I dislike some son of a bitch, I feel sympathy for him because I know that he will either die young, or he will grow old and experience the intense grief of watching loved ones die, not to mention the grief of arthritis, hearing loss, blindness, impotence, loss of mental acuity, increased vulnerability to disease, loss of bladder control, loss of mobility, prostate cancer, painful urination, halitosis, sometimes really BAD halitosis, etc etc etc etc etc.

(I'll bet good money that if George Bush were a compassionate atheist, rather than a compassionate Christian, he'd have thought harder about starting all them wars. I sure would have. And so would all my favorite atheists. Because, after all, for us death is final. For y'all it ain't.)

So, Ted, I must respectfully request that you think this one over. And, please note, I'm saying Atheism naturally INCLINES us towards compassion, not that it compels us towards it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 10:08 PM

Oh, and when I say "every life" I mean all sentient life, which includes non-human animals. Atheism allows them to be important too, unlike Christianity which tells believers that it's ok to conquer and slaughter the non-human animals.

Very sad.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 11:43 PM

Atheism is the absence of a belief in the supernatural, nothing more. Your personal philosophy inclines you in the direction you have described, someone else who happens to be an athiest may have a similar point of view or one diametrically opposed.

"Christianity . . . tells believers that it's ok to conquer and slaughter the non-human animals" (?)

Good grief, Steve.

So we would all be peaceful vegetarians (living on the Crass commune?) if wicked, old Christianity hadn't told us to go eat cheeseburgers.

Actually, the only philosophy - religious or otherwise - that specifically forbids eathing animals is (I believe) Buddhism . . . which is - Presto! - a religion.

Good Night.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 12:03 AM

I've read what people say, Steve, and I know what they think, or at least what they want me to think they think.   My comment is intended to point out an amusing irony--wasted, perhaps, some "atheists" seem to take themselves much too seriously--

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 12:46 AM

"Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you. -- Genesis 9:3" Plus all that "slaughter 'em for ceremony" stuff, and the passage about taking dominion over ever animal. I'd hate to be animal in the Bible.

Or in the Dalai Lama's palace. The scumbag eats meat, not sure how he justifies it, but he does.

But come on Michael. I am on record as saying that I don't think religion changes behavior much because people merely interpret its rules as rubber stamping their self-interested behaviors. So, no, I do not think that but for Christianity we'd all be vegetarian hippies living in a commune (though that would be nice, and better for the world.)

I like your point, if a nice person becomes a Christian they'll be a nice Christian, if a nice person becomes an atheist they'll be a nice atheist. I was a nice Christian and became a nice atheist. Christianity did not make me nicer, neither did atheism. I will say, however, atheism causes me to view my fellow sentient beings as having ONE SHOT at happiness, and therefore to feel compassion when I see them fail. Although I suppose I could also, fully consistent with atheism, just say "Hey, screw them, it won't matter in the long run, and besides, they'll be dead soon anyway."

Ted, I am sorry not to get your hint at humor. My computer screen (an old dinosaur that belongs in the 'puter museum) contains only black print and it did not pick up the twinkle in your eye, and when I held my ear to the screen I heard no snicker or knee slapping at your end. All I saw was "There is nothing about "atheism" that makes people compassionate--so how you'll manage that is beyond me--", which sounded to me like a serious comment, and one that I felt needed a serious response, especially given that as an atheist I take myself very seriously :-)

luv,
sb

:-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 12:37 PM

Should we be singing folk music at all? ;-)

Please refer to the thread of that title for more revelations on this burning matter...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 12:57 PM

I had resolved, more than once, not to involve myself further in this silly controversy ~ but it refuses to die, going on and on, day after day, and once again I find myself sucked in.

I know many folks who are the nicest kinds of atheists, including my sister and her husband who are currently visiting.

I also know a little about other kinds of atheists, such as, for instance, Josef Stalin, murderer of millions and perhaps a meat-eater as well.

What I didn't know was that the Dalai Lama is a scumbag.

Yeah, I know, that was undoubtedly intended as humor...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 01:02 PM

Yup, it was. Although I do see his meat eating as gross hypocrisy. I would love to ask him about it some day. But no, he's not a scumbag, in my book.

Sorry you think this controversy is "silly." But I'm glad you're following it/them still. (There are actually quite a few controversies being discussed here.)

sb

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 07:50 PM

I knew it was funny. Wry, anyway;-) Was that better?

As to Dalai Lama eating meat, it turns out that Buddhism doesn't actually require vegetarianism. I had some veggie friends who went on a peace trek that was run by some buddhists, and the told the veggies that their dietary needs were slowing down the march, and that they were being selfish. Gotta hand it to the buddhists--

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 07:58 PM

"Sancho and Hefty"

Livin on the road my friend, was gonna keep you lean and mean
Now you wear size Xtra Large
Your hair's slicked back with vaseline
You weren't your momma's only boy, but her hungriest it seems
She began to cry when you broke the scales
And sank right through the floor!
Sancho was a football king, he rode a big white limousine
He wore his bling outside his vest
Which turned the other gangstas green
But Sancho met his match you know, on the pavement down in old 'Frisco
Nobody heard his dyin' words when he said, "I gots to go!"

And all the LAPDs say, they could've had him any day
They only let him slip away, out of blindness I suppose

Hefty he can't dance the blues all night long like he used to do
The pavement Sancho bit down south ended up in Hefty's mouth
The day they laid poor Sancho low, Hefty split for Kokomo
Where he got the kingsize waterbed, there ain't nobody knows

All the LAPDs say, they could've had him any day
They only let him slip away out of blindness I suppose

The boys tell how old Sancho fell, and Hefty's livin' in Penthouse "L"
Old Frisco's quiet, L.A.'s hot
And Sancho's turf's been sold and bought
Now Sancho needs your prayers it's true, but save a few for Hefty too
He only did what a man must do, and now he's growing old

All the LAPDs say, they could've had him any day
They only let him go so long, out of blindness I suppose

I even heard Mark Fuhrman say, "I coulda had him any day!"
They only let him get away, out of blindness I suppose

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 12:01 AM

Oops!? Wrong thread maybe there LH but I DO appreciate it nonetheless! Your earlier thoughts above were what I have come to expect from you: cogent, precise and right to the heart of the matter. Only Chongo might do better, were he so inclined.

And speaking of inclines, thank you SB for your high standard whereby you judge the Dali Lama and God Himself. Had we only known.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 12:19 AM

Chongo is seldom at a loss for words. ;-)

The poor little guy's been working so hard lately that he's got no time for Mudcat. 2 smuggling cases, 1 missing person, and a triple murder to solve. It's great to see Chongo busy for a change, and able to make enough moola to keep himself in whisky and bananas whilst tracking down the bad guys.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 01:02 AM

"thank you SB for your high standard whereby you judge the Dali Lama and God Himself."Slag.

Slag, I think you misread me. I'm not judging the Dalai Lama, at least not for anything other than eating meat. God, on the other, does have real moral problems.

:-)

Phew! Thank God he doesn't exist!

sb

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 02:56 AM

Sorry I misjudged you Steve! As for God, you'll have a chance to tell Him all about it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 01:07 PM

Portrait of God looking at the Universe He created and thinking, "My Self!! What have I done!??"

Hosanna?

Don Firth

P. S. KaBOOM!!!   [Sound of lightning striking.]
HAH! Missed me again!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 02:09 PM

"As for God, you'll have a chance to tell Him all about it. "

When Bertrand Russell was asked what he'll say to God on judgement day about why he failed to believe, he said "You didn't give us enough evidence, God."

Quite simple, as long as God allows the state of affairs to be such that reasonable minds can disagree about his existence, he has no reason to be upset with those who doubt.

Christians who think God will be punishing unbelief harbor a very peculiar notion of God's sense of justice, namely that he doesn't have one.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 02:43 PM

Well, I see the broad brush of sweeping generalisations has been applied liberally in this thread. Without getting into it too much, I would point out the following:


In the mid 1960s, the Dalai Lama was impressed by ethically vegetarian Indian monks and adopted a vegetarian diet for about a year and a half. Apparently he consumed primarily nuts and milk. Unfortunately, he contracted Hepatitis B and his liver was seriously damaged. For health reasons, he was advised by his personal physicians to consume meat. While he has eaten meat in moderation ever since, the Dalai Lama has repeatedly acknowledged that a vegetarian diet is a worthy expression of compassion and contributes to the cessation of the suffering of all living beings. However, he eats meat only on alternate days (six months a year). He is a semi-vegetarian, though he wishes to be a full one. By making an example of cutting his meat consumption in half, he is trying to gently influence his followers.

"While many of the great Tibetan teachers did and do eat animals, the Dalai Lama has broken new ground by publicly stating his case for vegetarianism. If we seriously consider the compassion inherent in His Holiness' advice and actions, Buddhist meat-eaters could similarly try to eat vegetarian at least every other day to start out with. Since Buddhists have taken vows not to kill, they should not support a livelihood that makes others kill. Even if one does not have great compassion for animals this would meritoriously save humans from performing heinous deeds. The power of each human being becoming vegetarian releases the most intense suffering of the animal realm—the agony of factory-farmed animals. This profound action can help slow the grinding wheels of samsara, bringing to a halt the cycles of suffering of the entire animal realm and influencing their eventual liberation. When animals are not just looked upon as creatures to fill our stomachs, they can be seen as they really are—beings who have the same Buddha nature as we all do.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 02:48 PM

If God is omnipresent, Steve, which seems to be a fairly common spiritual concept if you look into it the more esoteric spiritual literature, then absolutely everything is evidence! ;-)

People get into problems with their ideas about God primarily because they think of "him" as some sort of large separate human-like being who is "out there somewhere"...like a great big powerful guy that lives across the street or in the next subdivision or something. Like Saddam Hussein or George Bush or the Queen? They can then blame him for the stuff they don't like, strike bargains with him, and demand evidence of his existence.

Pathetic. ;-) No wonder they have trouble believing in "him".