Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge

Subject: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Rob Henderson
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 01:50 PM

I got an email today telling me about a story that a guy had wrote on the internet about Vin Garbutt and Cambridge. He has spoken to both Vin Garbutt and the organisers of Cambridge by the sounds of it.

Vin Garbutt & Cambridge Folk Festival: What's the real story?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: skipy
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 01:59 PM

I class Vin as a friend & a genious, I have known him for over 30 years, he has played at every venue I have ever run. Friends can & have to differ or we would be clones, there would only one person! We would still be in caves, but to shun him for his views is a sin. It's folk music, anyone / everyone must be allowed to put their views to music.
Skipy

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Rob Henderson
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 02:04 PM

Here Here Skipy, well said

Hope you've visited out Campaign site on this matter :)

Wot! No Vin??

Was that a shameless plug? *looks sheepish*

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Carol
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 02:05 PM

Totally agree Skipy, even though sometimes we don't agree with their views. I wish I had a pound for every song that I'd heard that I didn't agree with/thought had 'gone over the top' - however that doesn't always mean I can't enjoy the song.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 02:15 PM

Vin Garbutt is a top whistle player who gets bookings all over the place.
Why would he want to play an East Anglian popfest that lost the plot when the fire brigade stopped running it?

This weekend's pressing problem is how to get to WOMAD's new location.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Rob Henderson
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 02:22 PM

Wot! No Vin? actually started when we were telling Vin we were going to Cambridge Folk Festival and he said "Cambridge, I'd love to play Cambridge again"

As for WOMAD, you tried the AA route planner?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 02:34 PM

No. I'm used to just getting off the train at Reading and there it is.
Though Rivermeads is apparently under water at the mo, so that's WOMAD's current justification that is was a Good Idea to move to a location seven miles distant from public transport links.
Vin Garbutt is a nice but misguided bloke who plays the whistle well.
I don't actually care whether or not Cambridge books him.
If they do, I won't be there to risk hearing his anti-abortion ditties.
No, I don't think he's entitled to such a stance.
It's a woman's right to choose, not that of a male Teesside chemical worker.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 02:48 PM

I don't really understand this campaign.

Vin is a very nice bloke who has a huge following. He also has an agent. Surely, its up to Vin and his agent to discuss things with the organiser and any decision taken is between those 3.
Are you sure your campaign doesn't have the adverse effect?

Sorry if I am not supporting the campaign, but I think the above 3 people are grown up enough to make their own decisions.

My only regret was not getting Vin to appear at my club, before it was closed. It wasn't becuase I didn't want him to appear. He was booked, but he became ill, and it just never happened after that.

I am more inclined not to book somebody if I feel I am being pressurised.

Leave them to it guys and gals.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: skipy
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 02:55 PM

Villan, fair comment, the campaign may be capable of doing more harm than good!
Skipy

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 04:57 PM

Don't allow politics to get in the way of your enjoyment

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 04:58 PM

and everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 05:10 PM

Listen to Crazy Man Michael

Click on the link on the right hand side of the webpage to listen to it.

:-)

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Carol
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 05:24 PM

Yes, but surely people who've gone through that sort of experience have more idea of what it's about and unless there's been some sort of 'miracle' I've not heard of a man having a baby yet!

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 05:40 PM

"I am more inclined not to book somebody if I feel I am being pressurised."

I'm not sure I get you here? Are you saying if people want an act on at your venue you try not to put them on?

The Campaign started as a joke to be honest but more and more people started asking me to do stuff untill I had 2 websites made for us, t-shirts printed for us and Pancrack pictures and a guy from the daily Telegraph phoning and emailing me.

Don't get me wrong tho, I do believe in the Campaign,but I have stayed away from talking about it in depth in anything I have said and left it as a campaign to get Vin booked for Cambridge.

If you are a bit confused about it, there seems to be alot written about it on blogs and messages left on the site and various message boards.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 06:04 PM

>>I'm not sure I get you here? Are you saying if people want an act on at your venue you try not to put them on?<<

That depends if it is a campaign or a request.

When people have suggested or requested somebody, I have gone away and done my research. When I was satisfied that the act suited the style of the club, then I would get in touch with the act or agent to see if I could afford them. If I could, i booked them.
I have to say that the variety that appeared at the club was very varied.

However I was never in the league of Cambridge Festival and I have great respect for organisers of festivals. Its their job to decide who they will put on and they stand by their decisions. Cambridge seems pretty succesful to me.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: andrewq
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 06:07 PM

It's the usual "tolerant" story of everyone being allowed to voice their opinions as forthrightly as they wish provided they are deemed acceptable to the clique. A quaint variation on the well-worn folk police theme (secular relativist branch; dangly bits verboten).

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 06:09 PM

"Listen to Crazy Man Michael"

I'm old enough to still possess my original 1969 copy of Liege and Lief...I do have it on CD as well mind you...

and for those who are attending Cambridge...have a REALLY great time :-)

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 06:21 PM

Its just a great song

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 06:35 PM

That link with the alleged real story is down. I didn't realise Vin Garbutt was (if he is) an anti-abortion campaigner.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 06:41 PM

Like quite a few other women there I once walked out of one of Vin's concerts - that was our choice of course. Who wants to be told that they are "murderers" however good the music?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: skipy
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 06:44 PM

This is one of the threads that "guest" should NOT be allowed to post to!
Skipy

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: andrewq
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 07:08 PM

I don't understand why Vin shouldn't be permitted to occasionally sing a song that some people in the audience may not agree with. He has a sincere religious belief that is important to him and expresses it with conviction and compassion (for all parties).

Things would be pretty dull if we could only hear lyrics expressing sentiments with which we were in 100% agreement. Apparently, it is fine for prominent singers to perform campaigning or social issue songs provided they don't rattle any folky cages. That seems rather cosy. (And here was I thinking that protest song was a fairly impotent genre.)

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 07:47 PM

What the hell is a "pro-abortion organisation" anyway! In all my life I have never met anyone who is pro-abortion. I have met an awful lot of people who think abortion is horrible and traumatic but who support the woman's right to choose what she does with her own body. Diane is perfectly right. No-one is entitled to an anti-abortion stance. And I particularly resent the term "pro-life." I am just as bloody "pro-life" as any anti-abortionist, thank you. And Vin is a very funny feller.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Declan
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 08:15 PM

As much as I firmly disagree with Vin's views on some subjects, I'd dearly love to see him back at Cambridger again. Lets hope this is possible in 2008. If the opening post here is correct there seems to be no particular barrier to Vin's participation next year.

Although I disagree with many of its sentiments, its hard to argue that Little Innocents is not a great song. People are entitled to their opinions, as much as I'm entitled to disagree.

I'm looking forward to seeing Mr Garbut in Sidmouth.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Bugsy
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 10:02 PM

A nice piece of "Arse Covering" by Eddie there.

I hope Vin does get asked back to Cambridge.

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 10:47 PM

There must be some things that one should not be allowed to say. The question is where the line is to be drawn.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 01:53 AM

Shouldn't the abortion issue be a seperate subject in the BS section as it is a very emotive issue and IMHO not part of this section.

I assume Rob started this thread to talk about Vin being allowed to play at Cambridge, didn't you?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 03:10 AM

I was starting to get the impression that probably Cambridge asked for an assurance that VG would not do that song, or maybe other songs too, and did not get it so would not book.

I assume we would all agree that Cambridge should not book those two young American girls (I forget their name) who sing racist songs, one of which I think is entitled "Aryan Man", no matter the quality of their performance, wouldn't we?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: r.padgett
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 03:53 AM

I have never been to Cambridge FF

I have never had a baby

Vin is without question one of UKs finest Folk singers and entertainers

I will be at Warwick FF again one of a number of fine festivals I attend and what I like, dislike, find humorous or tragic is my opinion

Life makes you think and experiences can form and also change your attitudes; isn't this what folk song is all about?

God be with us all and with Vin

Ray

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Rob Henderson
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 03:57 AM

Sorry about posting as GUEST earlier, I simply forgot to put my name in and I can't seem to get on my account that I made.

Everyone seems to be hung on the abortion stance, which I don't really like to comment on. This is because I am and have been confused on the matter for the last 10 years, through past experiences. And also I did not want to upset link any of my views with Vin. It would be hypocritical of me to side with Vin on this matter, but I like listening to his songs about the subject.

Anyway with that over with the Campaign is simply to get Vin back on the bill at Cambridge. The Campaign has done nothing to promote this (apart from post messages on boards), it has simply been a symbol of what people want. What has happened tho is people have used it/me to voice their opinions.

I will be wearing the Tshirts bought for me at Cambridge because I believe Vin should not have his lips clamped on his opinions. Censorship is a good thing in some ways but I think it has no place in this instance. Vin is a passionate singer and to put a muzzle on that I think is very wrong.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: KeithofChester
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:01 AM

Diane, there is supposed to be a coach service from both Victoria and Bristol to WOMAD. Or so it says on their website.

BY COACH
National Express will be providing coach services to the festival site from the following locations:

Route One: London Victoria - Reading - Swindon - WOMAD.
Route Two: Birmingham - Cheltenham - Gloucester - Bristol - WOMAD.

There will be a service running from both routes on Thursday and Friday and returning on Monday morning.

For more details, including prices and how to book, please visit www.nationalexpress.com/womad

Another "Alternative Cambridge", The Acoustic Festival in Nantwich this weekend has just been cancelled, I assume because of waterlogging.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:44 AM

The one thing that people with sincerely held beliefs can't stand, is other people with sincerely held beliefs. Well ones that contradict theirs anyway.
Accept other people's views, and get on with life, you will never get everybody to agree with you, live with it!
G.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: selby
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:46 AM

I like Vin I like nearly all his songs I don't always agree with him but hell thats life, like Ray I vote with my feet the same as a lot of other people. Personaly I do not like a certain type of food but it does not stop my wife or family and friends eating it they respect me I repect them do the same with Vin and get back to the issue

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Colin Randall
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:59 AM

As the author of the article at the root of this discussion, can I just say that what I really wanted to do was get the the bottom of a story that has been rumbling around by word of mouth for years. I have equal respect for the Cambridge festival director (Eddie Barcan) and Vin. Eddie and I first met as fellow judges at BBC Young Folk Awards finals - the Tim Van Eyken year – I have known Vin since I used to book him (for about £3 plus beer money and travel exes from memory) for Bishop Auckland folk club donkeys years ago.
And without ever dreaming of denying Emma B her right to walk out on a song she dislikes, I believe passionately in the freedom of others to write, sing and speak as they wish - the only line I draw, Richard Bridge, appears when someone's words can be judged to be incitement to murder, racial hatred etc (in other words, a criminal offence in any case). Believing in, or not believing in, abortion doesn't come within a million miles of that line. But that's just my opinion.....

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: skipy
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:07 AM

Like the taliban?
Skipy

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:22 AM

Are they on at Warwick Skipy ?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: redsnapper
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:46 AM

No-one is entitled to an anti-abortion stance.

???

People, including Vin, are perfectly entitled to hold a firmly held moral or ethical view (which I understand in this case is religiously-based). And others are perfectly entitled to hold opposite views and can choose to attend or not to attend his gigs knowing Vin's views. I happen to agree with Paul Metsers environmental views and booked him a couple of times when I ran a club, but some members of the club didn't like them and stayed away. Same thing with Vin at the same club.

RS

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: nutty
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 06:42 AM

I would class Vin's anti-abortion songs on a par with Dick Gaughan's 'Stand Up For Judas', yet I didn't hear an outcry from Christians about that.

It's all a matter of personal belief and an acceptance that not everything in this life is going to please everybody.
If a song upsets a few people -- tough.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:01 AM

The author of Stand Up For Judas is Leon Rosselson.

In the notes to A Different Kind Of Love Song upon which he recorded the song, Dick Gaughan writes:

I sang this because I felt it was an argument worthy of being heard. As a result of my recording this, I have been accused of being anti-Christian. Complete nonsense. I am not anti-Christian or anti any other set of beliefs; I do, however, have a profound dislike of intolerant dogmatism masquerading as truth and I believe that any body of ideas which objects to examination and discussion of its tenets, and responds to such by demonizing the questioner, is not one which I can take seriously.

It is about interpretations and distortions of Christianity: what has been done in its name and a contrast between whether you are prepared to await a 'reward' in heaven (turning other cheek-ism) or whether you will stand up for a perfect world now.

To tell women that they must conform to oppression and acquiesce to lack of control over their own bodies because it is some god's will (and suits some men) is a negation of a basic human right of over 50% of the human race.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: KeithofChester
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:25 AM

Indeed. As Bob Dylan wrote

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

IMO the Jesus story isn't nearly so powerfull without the Judas character in it.

I think you can appreciate a performer as a whole without having to agree with 100% of what they write. Otherwise your listening pleasure gets rather restricted. I don't have problems with people holding and speaking or singing about their own deeply held beliefs that are different than mine, until they tell me to shut up about mine because mine might offend them. Then my ability to listen to them diminishes dramatically, often towards zero.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:32 AM

"To tell women that they must conform to oppression and acquiesce to lack of control over their own bodies because it is some god's will (and suits some men) is a negation of a basic human right of over 50% of the human race."

Agreed Diane, but why the wee man hating bit in brackets? This what I mean when I say emotive language doesn't solve anything it only entrenches viewpoints.
It also suits some women, but that doesn't get mentioned very often, so it's best to be non sexist, then no unnecessary resentment is caused.

Giok

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:45 AM

It is generally men who provide the repression. That's why it fits in that sentence. Think popes for example, and the odd American president. It is perfectly appropriate to single out men in this context. Diane's sentence is just about as un-emotive a summary of why opposition to abortion is just plain immoral as you'll ever read.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:47 AM

It's not a 'man-hating bit'.
It is a fact that some but by no means all men hold this view. It's a power thing.
It does not, on the other hand, 'suit' any woman to be disempowered and thus prevented from deciding which is the best course in her personal circumstances.
Nothing 'emotive' about it.
Nor is it a new concept.
Women's lack of choice and control has been a feature of popular song for a very long time and will doubtless continue to be so for the forseeable future.
I would oppose only the dissemination of those songs which seek to impose a discriminatory pressure and reduce a woman's right to choose, not to have the subject not being addressed at all.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: nutty
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:54 AM

Thanks for the correction Diane. Unfortunately, I hadn't checked authorship of 'Stand Up For Judas' which I consider to be such a brave and profound song for questioning established beliefs.

Conversely, I find it amazing that Vin is still, after all these years, being pilloried for writing about a belief held by millions of people.

I have known Vin for years and have yet to meet a kinder, more considerate and more honest person. He is in no way anti women.

I do not agree with him in with regard abortion but I respect him for being sincere in his beliefs.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:55 AM

I'm sure that I would oppose the dissemination of some songs that did not seek to impose a discriminatory pressure nor reduce a woman's right to choose - but apart from that rare opportunity to have a pop at your grammar, Diane, I entirely agree.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:01 AM

This thread is about what is supposed to be the real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge, not about who is right or wrong concerning abortion and womens rights (that is IMHO for the BS section and for what its worth I support womens rights).

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:05 AM

So do I, that's why I don't like being lumped in with those who don't.
G

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:23 AM

Any song that highlights abortion in such a way as to increase opposition to it is a yet another blow against the rights of women, no matter how nice the chap who's singing it or how sweetly-emotional the approach of the lyrics (the inclusion of the word "innocents" alone is more than enough to betray their tendentious character).   He is severely misguided if he thinks it's a suitable song topic for a general audience. So, if it were me, I'd ask him just to avoid singing it.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:29 AM

Why is it so vital to get Vin Garbutt to Cambridge ' pop ' festival anyway ?

eric

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:50 AM

I don't like my second-last sentence there.   Anything could be a good song topic. It's the approach to the topic that's misguided.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:56 AM

'Folk' is historically a platform for people to air their views, not just in recent times. If we disagree with the views or sentiments of the writer, that is our choice, just as it is the choice of the writer/performer to express those views.

Songs are often deeply rooted in the writer's passionate beliefs... Ewan MacColl, John Tams, Leon Rosselson, Jez Lowe, Allan Taylor, Ted Edwards, George Papavgeris... to name but a few.

Okay, they want to change the world, and the world may not want to change... but that does not make it right to censor someone's ideals just because we disagree. By the same token, though, we should not be forced to listen to the views of others because of emotional blackmail - 'you don't agree with my point of view, therefore you are stupid/unfeeling/fascist/communist/(insert whatever you like!)...'

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:05 AM

It amazes me how folkies are all for "anti" songs as long as it doesn't touch a nerve with them. Years ago, a friend of mine wrote a song in support of the Greenham Common women but certain people at my local folkclub were outraged and threatened to boycott the club if the song was sung there. And, of course, the anti/pro abortion argument will never be resolved one way or the other; for example, as soon as certain women start talking about their rights, the other side talk about the rights of the unborn baby. And so it goes...

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:12 AM

Bernard

but that does not make it right to censor someone's ideals just because we disagree.

But are we obliged to give them a platform? I'd certainly resign from the committee of the club I'm involved with if the others wanted to put this chap on. (I'm sure they wouldn't.)

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Gedpipes
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:13 AM

Whats this about Chemical workers?
Blue skies (bit not in Lazenby?)
cheers
Ged

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:22 AM

I think everyone is agreed that Vin is entitled to his opinions. I think everyone is agreed that no one has an automatic right to any given booking. I suspect that the Cambridge FF organisers know their audience, and believe that the audience would not appreciate Vin's appearance there. It's perfectly legitimate to make a fuss to point out that there are numbers who would like to see him. It is slightly less than legitimate to use national newspapers, who know nothing about folk music and tend to ridicule it, to give bad publicity to the festival. If successful, such a campaign could merely mean no festival for him to be booked for. It also seems fishy that they are highlighting the abortion issue; the only likely beneficiaries of this would be the anti- abortion lobby groups.

As for abortion, I think the campaigners against would be more credible if they didn't limit their activity to advocating reducing the rights of other people, but worked to reduce the demand for abortion by promoting responsible sex and contraception, improved welfare for single parents and better access to child care if they want to work. I understand that Vin is a Catholic, but that does not necessarily mean he is against contraception- most active Catholics I know are totally opposed to the official Church stance on this.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Sparkles
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:25 AM

Free speech, right to sing or play what you want - fine. But I also have the right to not listen, never mind PAYING to listen to him. and I would not go near a performance of his because that sort of stuff is going to make me angry & upset & feel bad and lifes just too short. I don't go to concerts to be insulted and get cross. This has to affect the way organisers think because it will end up costing them ticket sales. There are plenty of people who wont go to hear him however good he is, that's a fact that becomes an economic reality.

In Colin's link Vin says that a woman came up to him and said he was spot on (or something). He then repeats this and makes a huge fuss of it. ONE WHOLE WOMAN agreeing with him, wow.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 10:59 AM

Not everyone who turns up at one of his shows will know what he's likely to come out with.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Colin Randall
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:12 AM

Maybe Sparkles knows the abortion pro/anti ratio among women better than Vin ...ONE WHOLE WOMAN in favour of a singer/songwriter telling HER story(presumably that of a woman who'd aborted) may not be any great thing...but Vin says that was the ONLY personal reaction he recalls from his last gig at Cambridge, and presumably he'd remember if he'd been, say, booed off. If he's right, one up for the Cambridge crowd's tolerance.

I disagree, as do many, with Vin's views. As it happens, he knows that, and once complained that I'd called him (in print) self-opinionated; opinionated wd have been OK with him.

But I disagree a lot more with anyone who'd stop him holding and expressing his view. I would fight as hard, whatever my private thoughts for or against, for Danish cartoons mocking Islamist fanatics, Robb Johnson's hard left views, Leon Rosselson's attacks on Zionism (despite being a London Jew) and even, if they chose to put their thoughts to song, Right wing columnists like Simon Heffer and Borin Johnson.

Britain is meant to be the land of free speech, but often it seems anything but. That depresses me, but it doesn't surprise.....

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:14 AM

I'm a woman. I'm not anti-abortion. I believe in a woman's right to maintain control over her own body. I also believe that Vin Garbutt has a right to express his views without being accused of telling women they "must conform to oppression".

I've often wondered what Pat's (Mrs Garbutt)views are on the subject?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Colin Randal
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:15 AM

Borin's fine, but I meant Boris!

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:31 AM

Nice typo Colin
Giok

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 01:08 PM

"Britain is meant to be the land of free speech"
the right to self-determination no matter if you agree with a persons direction in life or not.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 01:11 PM

"But are we obliged to give them a platform?"

"but that does not make it right to censor someone's ideals just because we disagree."

That was easy.....

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 01:22 PM

Vin Garbutt has a platform from which to state his views because he is a talented performer and a funny man. He has decided that it's legitimate to use that platform to propagate a message that can only damage women's rights. I don't agree that it is legitimate.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 01:27 PM

Mildly off-topic, but I want to express my astonishment at Colin Randall's assertion that Leon Rosselson attacks Zionism, despite being a London Jew. This is a bit like being surprised that every nominally Christian person in London isn't a BNP member, and if not, why not.

Leon was asked (by the Wren Trust some years ago) to write a song on what it means to live in England and be Jewish. This was something of a challenge for a Jew who is neither religious not Zionist, but he came up with My Father's Jewish World:

It's not a nation, not a religion
this Jewish spirit is still unbroken
it's like the candle that mocks the darkness
it's like the song that shatters the silence.

His father gradually lost his belief, became an atheist then a Communist. Now his father's world is gone, burned in the flames of hatred, but Yiddish lingers on and Leon is left on the outside looking in.

It's about believing blindly that YOU (your religion, your gender, your colour) is naturally superior, of making assumptions, and not seeing the need to understand how others feel about stuff that's crucially important to them.

/mildly off-topic.

Colin, I'd have emailed but you didn't answer the last one . . .

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: redsnapper
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 02:09 PM

Steve Shaw,

I have a considerable problem with the idea that someone cannot express their legitimate (his views are not illegal although very many will not agree with them) views on any platform. That smacks of totalitarianism to me.

My views on that particular ethical and personal dilemma are neither here nor there.

RS

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 02:28 PM

Diane: I never knowingly ignored an e-mail from you. [e-mail] for future ref


I don't know how many Jewish people you know, but I certainly find it surprising when one is so passionately anti-Israel. I applaud it, as it happens, and think Leon's songs about his religion/socialism - whether or not I agree with them - are among the best political songs I have ever come across, Song of the Old Communist and, yes, the one about his father's notion of Judaism, are priceless.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 02:35 PM

I have a considerable problem with people expressing their far from legitimate anti-feminist, racist or otherwise antidemocratic views on any platform (c.f. the example above of neo-fascist infiltration into schools).

You, redsnapper, describe this particular issue as an ethical and personal dilemma.
It is also a political issue of immense sociological, demographic and economic import.
Women need the freedom to decide for themselves, and to take responsibility for theit choices and how these impact on society and the planet.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 03:30 PM

each persons views are as legitimate as the next and to deny that is to legitamise censorship.

"but that does not make it right to censor someone's ideals just because we disagree."

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 03:42 PM

I must agree with Diane on this, redsnapper. This isn't about censorship at all. And the group that is attempting a public campaign to get Vin back in the lineup is also legitimate. If someone was forbidding Vin to express his opinion, we might have a reason for outrage. That is not what we have here. We have a concert promoter who has a finite number of spots. Said promoter is filling those spots based on what will satisfy his customers. There are more performers desiring to perform than slots available. One performer, by virtue of some of the music he performs, would alienate the audience the promoter needs. Hence the promoter goes in a different direction, while the performer continues to express his beliefs and principles in song, but not at this venue. The group trying to get the promoter to bring the performer back is doing exactly the right thing. If they can demonstrate that they want to hear Vin and the advantages to having him outweigh the disadvantages, then the promoter might relent.

My views on women's rights aside, Vin has every right to use the music to expand on his personal beliefs. And women have every right to respond to those views.

Mick

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 03:50 PM

Thank you, Big Mick.
I would never advocate silencing Vin (though I'd prefer him just to play his whistles!)
And Colin Randall and I are continuing our off-topic discussion offlist.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 03:53 PM

each persons views are as legitimate as the next and to deny that is to legitamise censorship.

Crazy Man Michael, I am giving you an assignment and you will be tested on it at a later date. You are instructed to look up the definition of the phrase "gratuitous assertion".

There will be a test......

Mick

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 03:59 PM

'Snork'
(as they say on the mustard yellow pages of Ambridge).

[UK soap allusion]

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:44 PM

I stand by what I said, regardless, Mick, of whatever it is you're attempting to say....attempting being the operative word here

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:46 PM

and not being an expert on soaps, UK or othrwise...that rather "gratuitous" allusion means nothing to me *LOL*

really some people need to get lives...soaps...*LOL

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:50 PM

Michael, you assert an opinion as if it is absolute truth, with no proof or arguments to back your position. That is something akin to a gratuitous assertion. Under standard rules of debate, a gratuitous assertion can be just as gratuitously denied. I deny your assertion that all opinions are just as valid as others. For example: I don't find the opinions of those that condone sex with children to have the same validity as those opinions against it. I do not believe that the opinions of Adolf Hitler, with regard to the attempted genocide of the Jews to have the same validity, as say the opinions of Ghandi.

It sounded nice. It just isn't valid.

That is what I was attempting to say.

Mick

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:56 PM

actually I did nothing of the sort...it's an opinion and nothing more

but read what you wish into it....

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:58 PM

I don't feel the need to justify myself to you or anyone else about my opinions, one way or the other.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:00 PM

CMM, whether or not you are acquainted with the Ambridge Yellow Pages, it is difficult to utter other than a snork at the preposterous assertion that every view is as legitimate as the next.

[I do believe that the omnibus edition of The Archers is broadcast over the Cambridge FF PA on Sunday morning where you'd be in similarly credulous company].

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:06 PM

sorry, dearie...I haven't attended the CFF in a number of years, and I intend in keeping it that way for a good deal longer

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:07 PM

nor do I subscribe to the somewhat left-wing views being exhibited here

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Baggins 360
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:09 PM

Vin Garbutt to my mind is a wonderful performer, he has an opinion about Abortion. Apparently though, according to Diana E, because he's not a woman, he has no right to have or express that opinion. I hate the idea of abortion, and Diana, you nor nobody else will change that. Janet Russell sings a beautiful song about a woman's right to choose. I don't agree with all her opinions but I recognise it as a fine song. She also sings one of the most powerful songs I've ever heard about a woman during the Miner's Strike, they probably wouldn't book her at The Grantham Con Club, but what else would you expect from a Con Club. From Cambridge-so-Called-Bloody-Folk Festival I'd expect more!

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:17 PM

"a woman's right to choose" (or anyone's right to choose their own particular path without fear of being dictated to by someone who disagrees))
there it is exactly...

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:22 PM

Vin Garbutt is a geat performer and I like him for that, regardless of what his political or social views are, and the same can be said for any musician whose performance I choose to attend.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Baggins 360
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:23 PM

exactly!

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:30 PM

I don't think anybody 'likes' the idea of abortion, with the exception, that is, of fascists bent on the pursuit of eugenics and creating a 'pure' race.

It does, however, completely escape me why it is that power-crazed religious maniacs continue to oppress and intimidate women into producing unwanted children that they can not afford or care for. Clearly it is the woman who must decide whether she is indeed able to undertake this or whether it will destroy her life, that of the unfortunate child, and indeed others who may be dependent, and take steps to remedy the initial mistake.

Whatever bearing Janet Russell's singing has I fail to fathom.

And I'm not 'Diana'.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:24 PM

CMM, I understood your comment as you intended it. But it was preposterous and I pointed that out. As to being liberal, on what do you base that? You don't know if I am liberal/conservative/or some mix of the two plus a few others. I certainly have been attacked for my views on gun control in the States as my beliefs are very conservative. I am very much a liberal in many areas, and you have no idea what my views on abortion are, as I have not stated them nor do I intend to. I would suggest that you reread my post on this subject, and you will see that it is pretty pragmatic.

As to Diane's comments, neither of you (Baggins, Michael) are aware, apparently, of the history between Diane and I. We have had mighty disagreements, although I suspect most of our politics/views are similar. Further, when she is right, IMO, she is right. And she presented her views in a respectful but forthright fashion. Not a thing wrong with that either. I suppose she should have thrown a "IMO" in that post somewhere, but the post spoke in general terms about her objection to giving a platform to anyone with illegitimate causes. Of course, there is the rub. Who gets to determine legitimacy when there is controversy with regard to that legitimacy. Many folks, decent folks with a strong sense of morality, object to abortion on the basis of very legitimate concerns. Many other folks, decent folks with passion (like Diane)and a strong sense of morality, object to others trying to take the right of personal choice away from women, and the condemnation of those same women and children to difficult lives with no assistance. I love that progressives on both sides of the question are trying to focus on what they can agree on, which is the limiting of the need through progressive actions and programs. And they seem to be developing a respect for one another.

At any rate, I think you are wrong to focus on Diane's position. It is well stated, well thought out, and I didn't find it combative in the least. I believe that Garbut is entitled completely to his position, admire him for the principled stand. I also understand what is happening with this festival, and think the promoter is well within his rights and is attempting to serve his core audience. We will see what the outcome is.

So, Michael, pay attention to the distinction. It is important. No one is denying Garbut his rights. He has every right to espouse his personal beliefs through his music. I do the same. I play a lot of labor music, but you may rest assured that the Manufacturers/Management groups aren't hiring me to play their events. It's OK. And I would bet that Garbut understood when he took the position, that he probably would lose some gigs.

Mick

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:44 PM

Redsnapper:

"Steve Shaw,

I have a considerable problem with the idea that someone cannot express their legitimate (his views are not illegal although very many will not agree with them) views on any platform. That smacks of totalitarianism to me."

I have a considerable problem with the fact that any showbiz type, by virtue of the fact that they are a showbiz type, can use the platform they have achieved to pontificate/proselytise about their pet issues, which may have precious little to do with what they do to entertain people.   You and I cannot do this, not because we have less legitimate views than the showbiz type, but because we do not happen to have access to that platform. Vin's use of his platform to propagate ideas that are utterly opposed to the rights of women is completely inappropriate, and it is he who is being undemocratic by so doing. There is little opportunity for riposte save walking out of his concerts.   It is laughable to suggest that we who rail against such behaviour smack of totalitarianism.   If anything, it's the other way round.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: redsnapper
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:49 PM

Big Mick... I was responding to Steve Shaw, not making a general comment about censorship. And Diane, in the end it is an agonising personal decision, not a societal one, and I respect the right of every woman to make that difficult decision.

RS

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: redsnapper
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:55 PM

I have a considerable problem with the fact that any showbiz type, by virtue of the fact that they are a showbiz type, can use the platform they have achieved to pontificate/proselytise about their pet issues, which may have precious little to do with what they do to entertain people

Is not a great deal of folk music exactly about that?

Respectfully,

RS

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:55 PM

Would Vin be acceptable to Diane and others if his song was the song ofthe sorrow of a man who's child had been killed by the woman carrying it?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Effsee
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:25 PM

Diane..."power-crazed religious maniacs"...Vin Garbutt? Sheesh!!

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 02:37 AM

I've no idea if he is one or not.
As far as I'm concerned he's a whistle player and it would be a Good Thing if he'd stick to doing just that.
The descripion 'power-crazed religious maniacs' applies to those (mainly men) from the pope downwards who impose their repressive, reactionary dogma on women in order to control them.
'Caps' and 'fitting' come into it.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 04:04 AM

...the pope ...who impose their repressive, reactionary dogma on women in order to control them.
'Caps' and 'fitting' come into it.

I'm afraid the Pope is against fitting caps as well as other rubber devices.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: andrewq
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:06 AM

"Princess" Diane may not be keen on popes but she seems very keen on pontificating. Apparently Vin isn't allowed to be a singer, now, he's got to stick to his whistle to please madam.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:14 AM

Wrong. I'm a countess, not a princess.

And Mr Garbutt, being good at whistling which at least has the advantage of keeping his mouth shut, can perform where he likes (or for whoever books him) and, as June Tabor famously said, 'so long as I don't have to listen to it.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Gedpipes
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:19 AM

Andrewq is a wag of the first class type.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:32 AM

Though clearly entirely unacquainted with the Child Ballads, #68 in particular.
Nor with a song collected by Cecil Sharp in Hambridge in 1904 about the harsh fate which awaited any woman who stepped outside the socially accepted moral code of the day.
We ought by now to have ditched the attitude that women should be so condemned, and should instead applaud and support them for being socially responsible.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:40 AM

Don't know Vin Garbutt's music - reading this I don't particularly want to. What I do know is that voting with your feet is not the same as censorship and to attempt to characterise those who chose not to pay to hear someone whose views they disagree with as engaging in some form of censorship is both wrong and silly. Censorship is something done from a position of power and authority and is in no way a valid description of a personal act of refusal.

I have no problem with VG singing about what the hell he likes, as long as no-one tells me I have to listen to it, pay for it, like it or not argue back with him and his supporters.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 05:42 AM

Yeah, quite.

[100]

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 06:01 AM

It's definitely happened- Vin Garbutt is no longer a folk musician, he's an Issue. And the Issue is Murdering Babies, with no ifs or buts. And since the Paedocaust is a political issue, and one of the extreme right, he will be identified with that part of the political spectrum. I doubt if he meant to be that way, but he can't pick his supporters.

So however it was before this campaign, henceforth anyone booking him will be wise to consider the kind of clientele he will attract.

Note that I'm not saying that all people against abortion are of the extreme right, or that there is no debate to be had. But once it has become an Issue, people take extreme positions. If, as some have already done, you claim that there is no fuzzy margin between life and not- life, that fertilisation creates a human being with all that that entails, you should examine whether you have not already taken an extreme position. Similarly, the argument that a foetus is not a person until birth, that is another extreme.

I suspect that few take either of those positions on careful thought, so the issue becomes one of judgement of grey areas, and the balancing of one person's rights, health and life against another's.

By the way, to allow debaters to make an informed judgement, can anyone post the lyrics to the "offending" songs? As Vin wishes to get a message across, I'm sure he wouldn't quibble about copyright.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 06:11 AM

No one's addressed my point. If Vin had written the song from a man's point of view would these criticisms be valid? There's always another side to any issue. I have always supported a woman's right to choose but I can't tell you of the emotional turmoil I went through when I found out my first grandchild had been aborted because the pregnancy was inconvenient at that time. I had to examine my beliefs very carefully when the turmoil eased. The head says yes, the heart says no. As a songwriter myself I decided very quickly that this was not a suitable subject for a song. Why? Because there was too much to say in an art form that is based on being concise. Three or four minutes could never be enough.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,sparticus
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 06:42 AM

What I can't get my head around is that if it's lawful to sanction abortion because having a child is "inconvenient" at a certain point in a persons' life, why is euthanasia not acceptable when the old become a burden? Or is that in the pipeline? PMB says that campagning for the rights of the unborn child is an issue for the far right. I would contend that it's exactly the opposite. Wasn't it the fascist regimes of the past and those of the present who rid themselves of those who didn't or don't fit into their idea of utopia? I applaud Vin's stance and at the same time sympathise with any woman's decision to abort. Living with that decision must be very hard indeed.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 06:51 AM

I didn't say that. I said that the ISSUE is one now used by the far right for their own political purposes. There is a debate to be had as to when abortion is appropriate. If that doesn't include the interests of the pregnant woman, who has the foetus actually inside her, it's not a real debate.

And yes, there is a debate about euthanasia, that pivots around the thorny issues of the possibility (probability) of people applying pressure to the old and sick, for their own convenience. And that has to be balanced against the interests of those unrelievably and painfully sick, or others who feel that their quality of life is irrepairably unbearable. It isn't black and white, but there are those who want to make it appear so.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 07:15 AM

"Quote"

Its because of this 'ere Magana Carter ,

As was signed by the barons of old

That in England today , we can say what we like

As long as we do what we're told !

                                     "End Quote"

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Bernard
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 07:25 AM

Ted Edwards, I believe!

;o)

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: KeithofChester
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 07:54 AM

Anyone that doesn't know Vin's work could do worse than watch this.

Inside Out

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 08:15 AM

To Nigel Spencer, I would try to listen to some of Vin's enormous output prior to judging him on one item. I also share PMB's curiosity since I have known Vin for thirty five years or more and seen him perform countless times over those years(including his first appearance at Cambridge)but I have never heard him sing the fucking song in question.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 08:37 AM

I think the thread has moved away from the original issue but the discussion is still as interesting. Looking at the original posting and link it does look like there has been a big misunderstanding. Whether the festival book him or not is up to them. The reasons for booking or not booking are multitudal without resorting to accusations of either 'side' (in quotes because at the end they are both on the same one!) making political statements.

As to the pro/anti abortion issue. My views are indeed irrelevant as I have never been in that situation. My opinion is that abortion should be a last resort but, if I was in that position, I would try to support my female counterpart, be it partner, daughter, friend or whatever, in whatever choice they made. I would hope that I could offer them a number of valid choices so that they would not feel that a termination is the only answer but, at the end of the day, if they chose that route I would help and support them.

Vin does have much stronger views 'against' from what I understand. I do like Vin's performances very much. I must disagree with Diane on that score - His guitar work and vocals are as good as his whistle playing and he sings with a passion that very few other performers can muster. That is of course my personal taste and I accept it does not co-incide with some other.

A very small portion of his songs however are anti-abortion and, in my opinion, he should be very careful where he sings them. I would hate my theoretical partner, as detailed above, to have just gone through the trauma of an abortion to then be faced with him singing Little Innocents. They will have just gone through a major and soul-searching, irreversible decision and I cannot see how being told that they were wrong would possibly make them feel better about themselves!

If he stuck to singing this controversial work at Life or SPUC rallies - fine. Just as sexist songs should not be given a general airing or the Red Flag should not be sung at the Tory conference these particular horses should indeed stick to their own specialist courses. I am not suggesting censorship or blanket bans. What people get up to in the comapany of like minded individuals is up to them, provided it is legal. All I ask is that people, including Vin, use a bit of common sense in where they introduce material that could be offensive.

Rant off.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 08:40 AM

QUOTE: "To Nigel Spencer, I would try to listen to some of Vin's enormous output prior to judging him on one item."

As a consumer, it's my right to judge a performer on whatever grounds I see fit. Life's too short to do otherwise. I'm sure VG has done some marvellous stuff, but singing an anti-abortion songs doesn't endear him to me and given that there are so many artists out there singing other stuff I do want to hear, I'll pass, thanks... I felt the same about Black Uhuru and their song 'Abortion'. After hearing that I didn't really want to listen to them again. What it comes down to is that for me, anyone promoting a religious or political worldview that annoys me would have to be bloody amazing to get into my record collection or be singing in a language I can't understand or - preferably - both (eg Nusrat Fatah Ali Khan). Wouldn't want to impose this view on others - but then I'm not religious, so I'm not compelled to.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:07 PM

Nigel, most of the world sing in a language you can't understand!!!

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 03:39 PM

"As to being liberal, on what do you base that? You don't know if I am liberal/conservative"

and nor do I care...I wasn't refering in the least to you after your initial outburst..so.....

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 04:09 PM

QUOTE: 'Nigel, most of the world sing in a language you can't understand!!!'

And for that I am eternally grateful ;-)

Nigel

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 04:13 PM

QUOTE: 'Nigel, most of the world sing in a language you can't understand!!!'

And for that I am eternally grateful ;-)

Nigel

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 08:19 PM

"Vin has every right to use the music to expand on his personal beliefs"

He does, along with Pete Seeger, Ewan Mcoll, Bob Dylan etc. His job is to aggitate, promote discussion and produce change. What the hell is folk music there for, otherwise?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 03:17 AM

Nigel, anyone who is happy to hear music sung only in English is missing out on so much! Variety really is the spice of life!

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 04:08 AM

Tunesmith, I think you may be missing my point. What I was saying, albeit in a tongue-in-cheek way, was that listening to music in a language other than English was a good thing, because when the singer comes out with dodgy views, you are spared them. My record collection is far more multilingual than I could ever be...

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Bernard
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 07:34 AM

Ridiculing someone's argument is a very weak way of making one's point...

There have been some very unfair comments in this thread by people equating beliefs with perversion using the techinique of gutter press sensationalism to make their 'point'.

Whilst people do become quite obsessive about their beliefs, any right-minded person can see the difference between someone who passionately believes in something for good reasons, and those who wish to indulge their perversions.

Captain Swing has echoed my sentiments very accurately.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 07:42 AM

Support you there Bernard an Cap'n Swing

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 11:46 AM

Not entirely sure what point Capt Swing and Bernard are making. I don't see much opposition here to VG singing about whatever he likes -however honourable or otherwise his motivation may be (and despite fiercely disagreeing with him I'm sure he's absolutely sincere in his beliefs). I do see a lot of people asserting their right not to then have to listen to it, though. And this is their absolute right.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 11:56 AM

Won't one of Vin's fans give us the words? I'd really like to know about his campaign.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 07:37 PM

It's perfectly right and reasonable for audiences to vote with their feet if they don't agree with the ideas a performer is expressing. It is not reasonable, and is patronisinng in the extreme, for a promoter to act as a self appointed arbiter of correctness.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 07:57 PM

It is not reasonable, and is patronisinng in the extreme, for a promoter to act as a self appointed arbiter of correctness.

So are you telling me that, as a folk club organiser, I have no right to choose not to book the BNP supporting folk singer I gave a link to earlier?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 08:09 PM

It is illegal to promote racism and violence. You would be completely right in not booking a BNP supporting singer. Vin's work widens the debate on human rights. This is not illegal.

---

Please remember to put a consistent poster name in the "from" box when you post a message. Anonymous messages risk deletion.
Thanks.
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Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 08:16 PM

That last comment was from me - must sort out my cookies.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 09:30 PM

The BNP is a legal organisation and I'm sure the bloke is adept at keeping his act within the law but I still wouldn't want him in the club.

Vin is a more complex question.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 06:39 AM

You are right Snail - Vin certainly is a more complex question.

The BNP, whether legal or not, has a well established and extremely narrow agenda which is born out of racism.

Vin's agenda is extremely broad and well considered. Politically, most of his work sits easily with the likes of Pete Seeger, Bob Dylan, Roy Bailey, June Tabor, ,Jez Lowe etc. He makes a point on one issue that runs against the tide. It should be clear from his wider agenda that bigotry and oppression are not part of his vocabulary. Because of his wider credentials, he should be listened to in order to promote debate.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 07:37 AM

So, somewhere along the way, the promoter does have to "act as a self appointed arbiter of correctness."

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 08:10 AM

The promoter also has to act out of financial considerations for his club or event.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 08:27 AM

No Snail, I don't think the promoter should act, as I said, as a self appointed arbiter of correctness.

Here are some quotes from Lee Haggan's songs:
"We fight 'gainst Marx and Capital, the cruel and alien creeds,?
For a British Revolution to set our people free"


?"We're made to pay for being swamped by bogus refugees"


"You've heard about the Yardies, drugs and guns from overseas?
You've heard about the Triads and all their pimps and all their thieves?
But there's another menace, from far away it came?
You know exctly who I mean and why they can't be named"

"A shower of foreign traitors who want to take our land?
And if you want to stop them you must come and lend a hand"

"This menace it was brought here to work in shops and mills?
But as well as lower wages they've brought us other ills"

"Now the shop signs are all strange
And the very air they breathe has changed
The dark faces on the curb?
The looks they give they threaten and disturb?
For they think this town is their own"

Now, as a former promoter myself, I wouldn't touch this guy with a barge pole, even if only to protect myself from being implicated in a charge of encitement of racial hatred.

Re: Bonnie's point - Every time I have booked Vin, I've made money. Every time I've been to one of his gigs elsewhere it has been packed.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 11:07 AM

CAPTAIN SWING,Folk music is there for a lot of reasons,it is not there just for promoting political discussion,although political discussion is one valid face of it.
organisers /promoters should not be pressurised into booking a performer.
Vin Garbutt appears to be a popular performer,who doesnt appear to be short of work,his fans get plenty of oppurtunity to see him, so whats all this fuss about,a veritable storm in a teacup.
I respect Vin as a performer.I also respect his right to air his views.
I am in favour of abortion under certain circumstances,and am prepared to tolerate one or two anti abortion songs in his set,but that doesnt mean I have to applaud them either,.
Of course this is all great publicity for Vin.,Who is avery good entertainer,and a charming person.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Baggins 360
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 11:59 AM

Every Vin Garbutt I've been to, and I've been to a lot, was a sell out, big gig, little gig, all sell outs. Most Folk clubs in this Country would book him in a minute. As indeed would most Folk Festivals. So what's different about Cammbridge? Are the rest of the Festivals "Right Wing" events, because they are booking this "power crazy man" who wants to keep "women Subjugated" or, are they simply doing what Folk Clubs and Festivals have done for the last twenty odd years, booking a man who is immensely popular with the regular Folk Club going people? I've been to Cambridge three times and each time I came away with the increasing impression, that here was a Festival that was so far up it's own a*** it had stopped being a folk festival. Whilst we are on the subject of offensive lyrics some of the vitriol against men poured out in the songs of some of our more "right on" sisters at the CFF I attended was obscene never mind offensive. I wonder If these are the same people who are now trying their level best to make the word 'Traditional' equate with to the word Fascist?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 12:00 PM

Good point Dick. Your point of view is eminently balanced and tolerant.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 07:49 AM

GUEST,Captain Swing

Now, as a former promoter myself, I wouldn't touch this guy with a barge pole, even if only to protect myself from being implicated in a charge of encitement of racial hatred.

So you would have been making a decision based on the content of his performance. Personally I wouldn't have been concerned about the prosecution, I just wouldn't want the £%*&^"~! in my club. I think I'm entitled to make that choice.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 10:23 AM

One thing I certainly wouldn't do as a club and festival organiser is bow to political pressure to book or not book an act I wanted to see or felt that my audience wanted to see. I think the people who run the Cambridge festival are now in an impossible possition. If they book Vin they are castigated by the pro abortion lobby and if they don't they are a set of policaly correct pinkos. What can they do? Would any of you lot who are trying to bully them one way or another like to give us the solution?

Dave.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 11:14 AM

Yes, maybe they should run the festival themselves, then we would see who they upset!!!

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 04:21 PM

They should book Vin - he is good performer making a perfectly legal statement. They could also book another performer who might put the opposite point.

Publish and be damned!

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 04:52 PM

well no. suppose the other singer is not as good and he influences someone to take up a viewpoint that leads to her suicide or causes some really awful problem.

its a bit like smoking. when people used to say I was being socially irresponsible and a bloody nuisance. i didn't like it, but eventually it got through.


just cos he fell into the hands of religious zealots at an early age - thats his misfortune. I have a close friendship with a catholic friend, I went through all the trauma of seeing an intelligent man screw up his family life because the RC church has weird ideas about birth control.. just because people don't have the strength of character to eschew chocolate box religious values that we pick up at an age when we think heaven is up, and hell is down - that is no reason to grant this man a platform.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 05:36 PM

You could say the same about political zealots. Also, why assume that an anti-abortion stance comes from a religious stand point? I see it as a human rights issue more than anything.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 05:40 PM

Fair enough Captain, I just differ on this point - as on so many other points.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 07:03 PM

In the mid 80's I (like many people in those Thatcherite times) became much more political. From an apolitical (some would say apathetic) standpoint, my views were polarized towards the left. This happened not because I had listened to the speeches of Scargill, Kinnock or even Tony Benn (who is now a hero); but because I'd listened to songs, stories and points of view at folk clubs. Some of those points of view I didn't agree with initially, but changed my mind after consideration. Some I still don't agree with and some are still up for discussion. For me, the key words are "listen", "respect", "discuss","differ", "consider". We need to keep listening and talking - rather the soapbox than the semtex!

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 07:51 PM

The argument about other folk singers raising controversial issues, therefore it's all right for Vin to do it as well, is fallacious. Generally, folk singers have sung about and written about repressed minorities and given them some kind of voice, no matter how small. Vin Garbutt is patently not doing this by singing tendentious and emotion-laden songs about his opposition to abortion. First, he is jumping on a bandwagon. Second, his songs militate against a repressed minority. They seek to disempower still further those vulnerable women who need to have abortions and who already, in many cases, find it difficult to get what they need. Yes, need. I cannot respect him for that. It is not the same thing. He is misguided, and I would seek an assurance from him that he would leave out the anti-abortion propaganda before booking him.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 09:19 PM

Steve,
Two questions to start with: -

1. How do you know that Vin wants to disempower vulnerable women that want abortions?

2. A bandwagon is usually an already popular platform that someone joins to further their own ends. In what way is this a bandwagon for Vin?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 10:58 PM

Captain - we understand that you're a Vin fan. No one is denying - he is a good whistle player. he has an onstage personality that has made him an idol to thousands.

However we are allowed to feel moral repugnance at his point of view on this issue.

It certainly a bandwagon because it will assure him of a certain constiuency. I'm not saying he needs it - but its certainly there.

" How do you know that Vin wants to disempower vulnerable women that want abortions?"

Because that will be the consequences of people joining one of the many pressure groups that espouse his point of view and mounting a successful campaign - as the 'moral majority' types alrewady have in the States.

how do I know its not human rights that motivates him. perhaps because of the mad bastard gleam in the eye of adherents of this point of view. Bush himself, and that bugger on death row for putting bombs under the cars of doctors.

only spiritual insight confers that sort of moral certainty.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 07:01 AM

weelittledrummer,

You are certainly allowed to feel moral repugnance at Vin's point of view on this issue.

I can't agree with you on the bandwagon issue. If I was going to jump on a bandwagon I'd find one that increased my popularity, not lessened it. I shouldn't think this has done Vin any favours professionally.

There are, and have been, extreme elements in many areas of political and social argument: Apartheid, Northern Ireland, The Middle East, Animal Welfare, Welsh Nationalism. Yes, there are some mad, dangerous bastards around. These people poison the debate and turn it into a war by using violence and intimidation to try to achieve their aims. But the existence of these nut cases who is not a reason to prevent someone from using their art to make a peaceful point on the issue.

If Vin were singing songs in protest at animal experimentation, would you be linking him with the idiots who attack research centres and threaten the families of the workers?

"only spiritual insight confers that sort of moral certainty"

You sound pretty certain of the morality of this issue - do you have some spiritual insight?

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 07:27 AM

Can I just point out that those who are opposed to abortion unconditionally, under all circumstances, are holding views as extreme and unpleasant as anything promoted by the BNP. When a pregnant woman's life is in danger, you do not have the right to insist on her death. To insist that a raped woman carry the child to term is inhuman. The argument is therefore only over the extent of abortion, and it is debatable whether legalisation has actually increased the number of abortions to any great extent. They always happened, but were performed by untrained practitioners often in unhygenic circumstances.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 08:12 AM

I suppose you're right Captain. I do have this problem of being self righteous - on account of me always being right.

I'm probably the last person who should be airing my views on this subject - apart from Vin Garbutt. He's last; I'm second to last.

As for it not being a bandwagon - I wouldn't be so sure. lotta catholics out there - it hasn't done the Pope any harm. Some of them DO see English society as hopelessly lacking in spiritual values, and they feel isolated.

Personally I always see that as an unfair assessment of a country where we have tried to imbue many of our social services with a spirit that comes straight from the sermon on the mount.

I do think when we say - this sort of thing doesn't matter. we are betraying some spirit of liberalism that runs deep in our folkmusic revival. In a recent interview (can't lay my hands on it, but its in the Guitarist magazine book of interviews with acoustic guitarists) Carthy described his feelings when a Cambridge crowd boo-ed a young duo who had written an anti war song about the Falklands soon after the conflict. Carthy said that he and Norma just realised that the wheel had turned full cycle and the whole folk movement was now totally depoliticised.

I think I felt something similar thirty years or so ago when Vin came up with this song. Its not a barricade I want to be behind, and I won't fight for his right to say what he's saying in this case.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 09:38 AM

On the other thing of it damaging his career. i don't suppose, he gives a stuff nowadays - what's one festival out of so many, and with so much adulation as there is for him on the folk scene - he must count his career a great success.

I think maybe 30 years ago - what damage could be done, was done. In those days his wonderful onstage manner seemed to have put his feet firmly on the ladder that had taken Connolly, Harding and Carrot onto 'greater things' - as they say.

i think graham parker with his song Squeezing Out Sparks on the same subject, did much worse out of the deal. theres no such thing as being a moderate success as a recording artist - you're either a name that shift units or you not, and that song did for him.

You have to see it in the context of its times. the whole progressive movement was under attack, Thatcher was waiting in the wings (and making overtures to the BNP voters), gits like Cox and dyson and Kingsley Amis were bringing out The Education Black Paper.

Artists like Vin and Parker were to some extent biting the hand that fed them.

That neocon anti liberal thing is still very much in power and still has America by the balls. I still don't feel safe from it.

Subject: RE: Real story of Vin Garbutt & Cambridge
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 06:46 PM

weelittledrummer
While I disagree with what you say on this particular subject, I think we have a lot in common otherwise. I gave up organising in 1995 because the club had lost its political bite. It became a friendly ( read twee) night out with very little challenge and too many sentimental love songs. I found myself an outsider in my own club!

PMB
I think you are right, the starting point for argument is the extent of abortion. A return to the backstreet scenario would be dreadful.