Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes

Subject: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 01:26 AM

As some of you may know, I've been working for some time* on a book of selected examples & commentary about contemporary {1950s to 2007}
English language children's rhymes. Almost all of the rhyme examples that will be featured in this book have as their source/s my recollection/observances and/or various Internet discussion forum/message board websites [including my website Cocojams, and Mudcat. With regard to the use of posts from Mudcat, members have been contacted by me via pm and have given their permission for me to use an example from a specific posts on a Mudcat thread, or any of their posts on Mudcat threads. Their names {usually just their chosen Internet name, as well as the URL to that specific thread, the name of the thread, and the date of the post will also be cited with that example.

* some time=prior to 2004 when I visited & soon afterwards joined Mudcat. These examples could have been recited prior to the 1950s. Thae dates (usually given in decades; such as "the 1990s" and "the mid 1960s"} are provided with each rhyme example.

One of the chapters that I am working on for that book is called Speculative Sources . That chapter will include my ideas and others' ideas about possible sources for the words and/or tunes of children's rhymes. These sources may be from folk songs, songs from other genres, including spirituals, and military cadences {jodies}. Furthermore, some verses or lines or references used in specific children's rhymes may come from television commercials, television shows, movie scripts, or from real or adapted accounts of actual occurances, and/or other sources. I also include parodies of Christmas songs, folk songs, and other songs in this list of "speculative" sources of rhymes, although these sources seem more than speculative.

I use the word "speculative" because most of the ideas about the source material for a rhyme {or a verse/verses used within a rhyme or rhymes} probably are unproven and unprovable. Imo, speculation on the origins & source materials used for songs {or rhymes} should be an important part of the documentation of that folk material.

However, I do not mean to imply that all of the words of children's rhymes come from previously written material. Some rhymes appear to have been wholey composed by children and are testimony to children's creativity. Yet, these rhymes use particular tunes. But which tunes are they? I admit that I know very little about these traditional songs. And I really need & would love to have Mudcatters members' and guests' help with regard to the titles of traditional European folk tunes/songs that in part or in their entirety may have been the source of verses of or tunes used for children's rhymes.

In this thread, I'll share some examples that I intend to include in that "Speculative Sources" chapter. I've created this thread because this subject may be of interest to folks here. And-as I have mentioned-I also do so to receive input & information about those examples and this subject from Mudcat members and guests.

I hope that folks read this thread and will share any example/s of speculative sources of the words and/or tunes of children's rhymes that they may think of.

Your help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 01:37 AM

Here's one example of what I mean by a "speculative source" for a children's rhyme:

First, here is one example of this rhyme. There are many other versions:

Down by the bank with the hanky panky
Where the bullfrogs jump from bank to banky
Singing eep opp orp opp
- Flojaune G. {Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania}, private email to Azizi
Powell, August 2004

Subject: RE: Down By The Banks Of The Hanky Panky
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:38 PM

It's possible that "The Bull Frog", in the DigiTrad @displaysong.cfm?SongID=6010 be a source for this children's rhyme.

But I think that this archived Mudcat thread provides what is almost a sure bet as the source for this children's rhyme: Lyr Req: a big bullfrog jumped into the lake"...

Subject: Lyr Add: MAY IRWIN'S FROG SONG
From: Jim Dixon - PM
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 03:49 PM

This is the song mentioned above, but it probably isn't the song littledaddy1803 wanted.

The sheet music for MAY IRWIN'S FROG SONG may be found at The Library of Congress American Memory Collection. May Irwin (1862-1938) was the performer, not the songwriter.

MAY IRWIN'S FROG SONG
Charles E. Trevathan, 1896

1. Away down a-yonder in Yankety Yank,
A bullfrog jumped from bank to bank
'Cause there wasn't nothin' else to do.
He stubbed his toe an' in he fell,
An' de neighbors all say dat he went to well,
'Cause he hadn't nothin' else to do.

-snip-

thread.cfm?threadid=94034#1815711

Subject: RE: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 01:56 AM

In this Mudcat thread thread.cfm?threadid=100061
Water Wallflower & Brickwall Waterfall, I speculated about the possible connection between the words "Brickwall Waterfall" and the much older children's rhyme "Water Waterflower". That rhyme {song?} is found in the Digital Tradition at @displaysong.cfm?SongID=7605

Here is a verse from that "Water Waterflower" rhyme:

2.
Water, water, wallflowers,
Growing up so high:
We are all young maidens,
And we shall all die
--Excepting Maggie Stuart,
She's the youngest of us all:
She can dance, and she can sing,
And she can knock us all!
Fie! fie! for shame again!
She'll turn her back to the wall again.
-snip-

And here is an example of this apparently widely known contemporary children's rhyme:


This is the song brickwall water fall: brickwall waterfall (someones name) thinks she got it all but no i do so boom with that attitude peace,punch,captain crunch i got something you cant touch bing bang choo choo train you wind me up i'll do my thing no reece pieces,seven up you mess me i'll mess you up
-lily; 10/3/2006

http://www.cocojams.com/taunting_rhymes.htm

Imo, the children's rhyme "Brick Wall Waterfall" became widely known due to its inclusion in a 2003 American movie Dickie Roberts, Former Child Star. I am very interested in knowing if anyone knew this rhyme before 2003.

Subject: RE: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 02:24 AM

I curious about whether anyone thinks that the word "Jingalo" in this song @displaysong.cfm?SongID=2203 "Gently Johnnie My Jingalo" might be the origin of the children's foot stomping cheer "Gigalo" {which might also be spelled Jigalow or some similar spelling. I think that this is a stretch as it occurs to me that "Jigalow" may mean "dance down low". And besides, it's doubtful that the children singing this rhyme know the "Gently Johnnie My Jingalo" folk song. Of course, anything is possible, but do you think that there's some reason to believe that the Jingalo song could have been one source for the Gigalo children's cheers??

Here's a verse from that folk song:

I put my hand all in her own
Fair maid is a lily oh
She said, "If you love me alone
Come to me quietly
Do me no injury
Gently, Johnny, my Jingalo"

-snip-

And here's one example of "Gigalo"{"Jigalow"} :

Gigalo {Version #3}
gigalo we have our hands up high feet down low thats the way we gig-alo. gig alo o gig gig alo o gi alo o gig gig alo the sky is blue the grass is green thats the way we do our thing turn around touch the ground get back up and break it down.gig alo o gig gig alo o gi alo o gig gig alo o
-erika; 10/26/2006

http://www.cocojams.com/street_cheers_example%200104.htm

Subject: RE: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 02:45 AM

Here's an example of a children's rhyme that have lines that can definitely be traced to a popular recorded song:

In October 1977, the rock group Queen recorded "We Will Rock You." Here's an excerpt of that song:

"Buddy you're a boy make a big noise
Playin' in the street gonna be a big man some day
You got mud on yo' face
You big disgrace
Kickin' your can all over the place

We will we will rock you
We will we will rock you"
    -snip-

See http://www.lyricsfreak.com/q/queen/we+will+rock+you_20112546.html for the lyrics to the entire song.

Also, see these two examples of "We Will Rock You" children's cheers:

Example #1:
We will we will rock you.
rock
we will we will rock you.
Pick you up and drop you.
Mud in your face
kick your can all over the place.
We will ROCK!
-Sheree, 9 years old {North Versailles, Penn}; 9/7/2006

{Sheree chanted this while doing a foot stomping/handclapping routine}.

Example #2:

we will, we will, rock you down, shake you up, like a volcano will erupt, walking down the street, hear you say, we're the best team in canada, eh. Turn on the engine step on the gas, were gonna kick some major @$$
-marguerita ; 6/7/2007

{Both examples are from: http://www.cocojams.com/cheerleader_cheers.htm

There seems to me to be little doubt that these cheers came from that hit song recorded by Queen.

Subject: RE: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 05:26 AM

Hi Azizi
I've thought a lot about sources for these kinds of rhymes. The Opies in The Singing Game identify quite a few, of course. My book about Scots kids songs has quite a few more, but it is hard to identify specific sources, often as you show above a phrase is snatched from a song or TV commercial, and gets incorporated in various assemblages of verses. I have indicated many of the tunes that were used, and for others the key phrases show what original is being worked from. Your 'gigalo' version looks like it relates to the old Scots Jingo Ring, which I treat in detail, but without getting to any sensible source of clear meaning for the key phrases 'jingo ring' and 'merry matanzie'. 'Here we go round the Jingo Ring, round about merry matanzie'.

Subject: RE: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 06:56 AM

Ewan McVicar, thanks so much for your post. I attempted to pm you, hoping that you really weren't a guest but just forgot to log in. But when I tried to do so, I got that "no member with that name" message. :o(

May I ask, is your book available in the USA? And if so, what is its name? I'd love to purchase it. I have read the Opies' books, including The Singing Game. But it has been a while since I have done so, and I see that I have to read them again.

My intention with this book is not to repeat the information provided in the Opies books and/or in other books. Instead, I believe that the material presented in the book that I am working on will add to the collection of children's rhymes through the presentation of the text, and the performance activites of selected English language children's rhymes, most of which that I have not seen in print publication before, at least not the variant examples that I'll include. Of course, the fact that I have not seen these examples in print does not mean that they have not previously been included in any published samplying of children's rhymes.

My belief is that the book that I am editing will also add to the study of children's rhymes by its inclusion of comments about those rhymes from informants and from me in my role as the editor.

I should also say that just because I don't want to repeat the information given by other collectors, doesn't mean that I shouldn't refer to that information. Hence, my comment about needing to go back and re-read the Opies books, and my question about the availability in the USA of your book, Ewan McVicar.

I would love to learn more about the "old Scots [folk song? or children's rhyme?} Jingo Ring".

I agree with you that it is hard to identify specific sources, often ...a phrase is snatched from a song or TV commercial, and gets incorporated in various assemblages of verses.. But, even though it's hard to identify specific sources, that doesn't mean it's always impossible to do so...Besides that kind of exploration of possiblilites is interesting to me, and that kind of speculation may also be interesting to others.

Furthermore, I strongly believe that it is important to add to the literature and study of children's rhymes by including examples of and commentary/information about multiple variants of "contemporary" English language children's rhymes, including but certainly not limited to examples from African American children, youth, and adults. Rhymes from this demographic which make up a significant portion of the rhymes that I will be including in this book.

I believe that if people nowadays do not "capture" these rhymes, many of them will disappear {Some of these examples appear to have already disappeared from active use or remembrance by a key population from whom I have collected rhymes-African Americans in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania region}. I also believe that it's important to document our speculations about or definitive information about "contemporary rhymes", including the meanings of certain colloquial words and phrases found in rhymes, and/or the source material used in the context of these rhymes, so that people who years later are trying to understand those rhymes have the benefit of that speculation and information.

I hope to "hear" more from you Ewan McVicar.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 07:06 AM

Here's one correction of a sentence in my post above:

"I also believe that it's important to document our speculations about or definitive information about "contemporary rhymes", including the meanings of certain colloquial words and phrases used in the context of these rhymes and/or the source material of those rhymes, so that people who years later are trying to understand those rhymes have the benefit of that speculation and information."

All the other typos in that post & the unclear usage of words will have to fend for themselves. :o)

Subject: RE: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: Penny S.
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 03:41 PM

Hi, I have just filed upstairs a collection of counting out rhymes which seem to be derived from shepherd's counting rhymes. Is that the sort of thing you're after>

Penny

PS, that other reference in PMs is from the 60s PS

Subject: RE: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 04:16 PM

Hello, Penny. Yes, I would be interested in reading those rhymes. Thanks for thinking of me regarding them.

I should have clarrified that I am focusing on children's handclap, jumprope, ball bouncing rhymes, counting out rhymes, and children's cheerleader cheers.

One of my interests is to see how the text and the performance activity of certain rhymes stays the same or changes over time and in different geographical locations [For example, is a particular rhyme found in England, and the USA, and Australia? If so, are the words the same or different, and if so what are the differences?

Among other things, I'm interested in documenting the use of & meaning of slang and colloquial expressions in children's rhymes; references to race/ethnicity in rhymes, and references to aggressive behavior such as hitting, slapping, pinching in the text of rhymes and in the performance activity of rhymes. And, as I've mentioned before, I am interested in atempting to identify source material/s for verses, and lines used in selected rhymes.

This is something that I do in my spare time. Though I've set goals for myself as to when I will be finished drafts of certain chapters, and the complete rough draft itself, I'm flexible about those goals when work and other parts of my life become too demanding.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 20 Aug 07 - 06:21 AM

Hi Azizi
Not sure if I can put my email address on here, used I think not to be possible as a protection measure. If you Google my name you'll find my email address various places, if you select the Scottish Storytelling Centre website it is certainly on there.
Email me and I'll send you the section of the book that discusses Jingo Ring. The rhyme you quote above may offer a clue re source meaning?
Like you I want to augment what the Opies have done by concentrating on a particular area, in my case Scots kids songs and rhymes of last 150 years, giving varying versions that show origins / change / decay / development over time. I'm also much interested in tunes, which the Opies made little of.
I should have said that my book gets published on 1st October, don't have ISBN number to hand. Amazon etc already have it on offer at the wrong price [was to be £9.99, now upped to £14.99, published by Birlinn, title Doh Ray Me When Ah Wiz Wee.
I think that the only Opies book that treats a great deal with sources is The Singing Game, which has a few what they term 'clapping' rhymes, but their other books provide mnay clues.
Look forward to discussing wwith you direct.
Ewan

Subject: RE: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 Aug 07 - 06:43 AM

Here's the collection of shepherd's rhymes, followed by thye counting out rhymes. My source was a set of poetry books, the name of which escapes me for the moment - and I've given them away. The origin of the verses was not always given - so not very helpful. The Sussex rhyme was from the Copper's book.

Shepherds in many parts of England used to count their sheep using unusual number rhymes, based on old Welsh numbers. Here are a few examples. Can you work out how the numbers work? What would the next numbers be? What other rhymes are they like?

Ane tane tother feather fip
Sother lother co deffrey dick
Eendick teendick totherdick featherdick bumfrey
Eenbumfrey teenbumfrey tother bumfrey featherbumfrey gigit

Eina mina pera peppera pim
Chester nester near min dickera
Einadickera minadickera peradickera pepperadickera pumpi
Einapumpi minapumpi perapumpi pepperapumpi ticket

Een teen tuther futher fip
Sother lother porter dubber dick
Eendick teendick tutherdick futherdick bumpit
Eenbumpit teenbumpit tutherbumpit futherbumpit gigit

Aina peina para peddera pimp
Ithy mithy owera lowera dig
Ainadig peinadig paradig pedderadig bumfit
Ainabumfit peinabumfit parabumfit pedderabumfit giggy

Yan tan tethera pethera pimp
Sethera methera hovera covera dick
Yanadick tanadick tetheradick petheradick bunkin
Yanabunkin tanabunkin tetherabunkin petherabunkin digit


Here's a completely different rhyme from Sussex. Each term stands for two, so this counts to 20, just like the others.

One-ery twoery cockery shoe-ery
Sitherum satherum wineberry wagtail
Tarradiddle den

These are the counting out rhymes from the same set of books. As soon as I get the name, I'll let you know. It's very irritating - I can visualise the covers, the typeface, even, but not the actual words!

Inty, tinty, tethery, methery,
Bank for over, Dover, ding.
Aut, taut, toosh;
Up the Causey, down the Cross,
There stands a bonnie white horse:
It can gallop, it can trot,
It can carry the mustard pot.
One, two, three, out goes she!

Eeny, pheeny, figgery, fegg,
Deely, dyly, ham and egg.
Calico back, and stony rock,
Arlum barlum, bash!

One-ery, two-ery, dickery, dee,
        Halibo, crackibo, dandilee;
        Pin, pan, muskee dan,
Twiddledum, twaddledum, twenty-one;
        Black fish, white trout,
        Eeny, meeny, you go out.

       Hoky, poky, winky wum,
        How do you like your 'taters done?
        Snip, snap, snorum,
        High popolorum,
        Kate go scratch it,
        You are out.

Zeenty, peenty, heathery, mithery,
Bumfy, leery, over, Dover,
Saw the King of Heazle Peazle
Jumping o'er Jerusalem Dyke:
                Black fish, white trout,
                Eerie, ourie, you're out.

One-ery, ore-ery, ickery Ann,
Phillip-son, Phollop-son, Nicholas, John,
                Queevy, Quavy,
                English navy,
Zinglum, Zanglum, Bolum, Bun.


Immenacka rickerracka
Rare rar dominacka
chicka bocka, bocka chicka
om pom push!

Penny

Subject: RE: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 20 Aug 07 - 11:19 AM

Penny, these have been gathered together from various other sources I think.
Some are Scottish in my opinion e.g. 'Inty tinty' and 'Zeenty teenty'. 'Yan tan' is considered to be very old. The last one is sometimes 'Eenie meanie makka rakka, om dom dominacka' etc.
The genre is known to scholars as the'Anglo-Cymric Score'.
Ewan McVicar

Subject: RE: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 Aug 07 - 02:35 PM

I know they're from various sources - some "colonial". The poetry books did have a page with copyright info in them, but it didn't go into all the detail I wanted when I first collected them together. The Welsh sourced shepherd's rhymes were printed on the bottom of the pages with the page numbers.

Problem is, I've just retired, and given my school collection away - I'm not sure whether this particular set is still in the school, or went to someone who has also left. I might be able to track them down again.

It's interesting that the Sussex sheep rhyme is so different. It would be nice to know if the playground rhymes that seem to refer to it were from the same locality.

Penny

Subject: RE: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: Kent Davis
Date: 21 Aug 07 - 12:06 AM

I had not heard the first two lines of:
"Down by the bank with the hanky panky
Where the bullfrogs jump from bank to banky
Singing eep opp orp opp"

but the 3rd line in the song may come from a 1960s animated cartoon "The Jetsons". One episode featured the song:
"Eep opp orp opp,
Eep opp orp opp,
Eep opp orp opp,
'Eep opp orp opp' means 'I love you'"

If I remember correctly, the "eep opp orp opp" was supposed to mean "I love you" in an extra-terrestrial language. I must admit I still sing it from time to time, and my children have picked it up from me. My computer is too slow to play video so I can't confirm this, but I believe you can find the performance on the internet by entering "'Jet Screamer' eep" on Google.
Kent

Subject: RE: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 21 Aug 07 - 03:39 AM

Two books that are excellent re the sources of songs / rhymes are
Songs and Sayings of an Ulster Childhood
by Alice Kane
and
Brown Girl in the Ring [song games from the Eastern Caribbean]
By Alan Lomax, JD Elder and Bess Lomax Hawes.
The latter has a wonderful companion CD, in the Lomax series on Rounder.
Ewan

Subject: RE: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 Aug 07 - 03:11 PM

The poetry books I used were named "Junior Voices" nos 1 to 4, and published by Penguin.

Penny

Subject: RE: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Aug 07 - 04:23 PM

Ran across this doctoral dissertation, in full on line:

"The Extent to Which American Children's Folk Songs Are Taught by General Music Teachers Throughout the United States," Marilyn J. Ward, University of Florida, 2003, 283 pp. It takes a while to load.

www.neflin.org/marilyn%20Ward%20Dissertation.pdf

Subject: RE: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 08:26 AM

Hi, all!

Thanks for posting such interesting information to this thread.

I will be follow sure to follow-up on the information that was provided.

**

Ewan, I have Lomax, JD Elder,Hawes Brown Girl in the Ring book & CD. It is indeed excellent.

**

Penny, thanks for posting those counting rhymes examples. This may not be significant since I don't have alot of data on it, but it's interesting to me that I never heard the line "inty minty minie mi" recited for the "eenie meenie minie mo" rhyme until I moved to Pittsburgh as an adult. I collected two examples in 2002-2004 from two different African American boys {ages around 7-9 years} who recited the rhyme this way:
eenie meenie minie mo
catch a tiger by his toe
if he hollers let him go
in-ty min-ty miney mo
-snip-

{With each word of the rhyme, the person who was doing the counting out pointed to the extended fist of each child who huddled around him or her. However, with regards to the words "en-ty, min-ty" {which were pronounced in-tee; min-tee}, the counter pointed to another child with each syllable of those words.}

When I was growing up in Southern Jersey in the 1950s, the last line for this counting out rhyme echoed the first line as it was "eenie meenie minie mo"

Since I wasn't expecting that "in-ty min-ty minie mo" pronunciation, I asked the boys who said it to repeat the entire rhyme and I listened very carefully. And yes, they said "in-tee min-ty".

Could the fact {which I'm no sure of} that Pittsburgh, PA has more people of Scots/Irish descent than Atlantic City, New Jersey account for the difference in the last line? But if that is so, that implies that these Pittsburgh children got this pronounciation from some people of Scots-Irish descent or some other people who recited the rhyme that way. I'm not sure how long this Pittsbugh neighborhood {Garfield} & school {Fort Pitt} has been segregated. Both the school and the community are now 99% Black. But that is now. I've heard it wasn't always the case. {As an aside, I think it's sad that over time a number of Pittsburgh communities have become much less integrated that more integrated. But that has happened.}

Here's another possibility for how the children learned that "inty minty" pronounciation: Since the Mister Rogers' Neighborhood television show is/was based in Pittsburgh, PA, could Mr. Rogers have used this pronunciation on that show which began in the late 1960s and that's how that inty minty pronunciation became known and was passed on throughout Pittsburgh area {and elsewhere}?.

I guess we'll never really know.

Subject: RE: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 08:45 AM

A short article, with numerous examples, on sheep counting rhymes, which states that "they were in fact rarely used by shepherds but more often by children, as counting rhymes, or by parents and nursemaids in amusing them!".

Subject: RE: Origins: Children's Rhymes & Folk Songs&Tunes
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Aug 07 - 11:31 AM

Kent Davis, thanks for that info regarding the Jetson's "Eep opp orp opp" song. I remember watching episodes of the Jetsons cartoon, but for missed that particular episode. It was fun watching it!

Thanks also Q, and Sminky for sharing those articles about this general subject.

It seems to me that there are several questions one could ask about words, phrases, lines, or verses found in children's rhymes {or other examples of folk songs}:

1. what is the first published source for that specific word, or phrase, or line? {or a similar sounding word, phrase, or verse, or line?}

2. What are other documented incidences of their use? {and when, and who used it?}

3. What does the word, phrase, line, verse mean {what is its definition} in the the context of the particular rhyme example}?

**

It's possible that the "eeps eeps opps" line that was used in the Jetson's song is the source for that line {or similar sounding lines" in the "Down By the Banks of the Hanky Panky" children's rhyme. But they may have no connection at all {which is why I would consider the Jetson song a speculative source for this line as it is found in the "Hanky Panky" rhymes.

I'm wondering if there are earlier examples of the "epps epps opps" line. Is epps opps part of any shepherd's counting system?

Also-and this is probably a biggg stretch- one somewhat similar sounding call that comes to mind as a result of my reading Mudccat threads is the "oss oss" call that is used during the UK Padstow celebration.

Is there any connection between "oss oss" and "epps epps opps?

???