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A Song and a Tune
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Subject: A Song and a Tune From: GUEST Date: 11 Apr 08 - 06:49 AM At our local folk club the other night, comments were made to the effect that when we booked an act which was entirely instrumental than we should at least ensure that the support and/or floor spots included singing. Of course, on the many occasions when both the main act and support are singers there's no such complaint from these quarters. So, is this double standards? Do most folkies still hark back to the days when folk clubs were called "Folk Song Clubs" and is there still prejudice against instrumentalists? Now, when we can do so, we actually do make an effort to vary things at the club and will often have an instrumental floor spot for a main guest(s) who are singers or vice versa. However, this isn't always practical. Instrumental acts will undoubtably attract other musos either within the audience or as potential support/floor spots. Likewise with singers. Moreover, is it really fair on the bulk of the audience who have specifically come to listen to a particular genre of music/song to be subjected to something completely different. It might be of high quality but it's not what they've come to hear. Personally, I can enjoys several different styles of folk/trad and even other forms of music but not everyone feels the same. However, there's times that even I would feel that too much of a contrast would upset the mood of an evening. Any thoughts on this?
Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: GUEST,HughM Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:21 AM I would try to include one or two floor singers of the same genre as the main act to please those who have turned up expecting to hear this genre, though this will often not be possible. However, your regular audience will probably appreciate some variety, so it sounds to me as though you are doing the right thing already. Basically, try to get a good variety of floor singers and instrumentalists. Another possibility is to have an instrumental session during the interval if most of the floor acts are singers. I usually try to do a floor spot which will contrast initially with what came before and finally with what I expect to hear next, unless of course there is some kind of theme to the evening. The fact that you are making the effort to consider this sort of thing makes me think that you won't go too far wrong. |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: Jack Campin Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:56 AM I'm not bothered about whether main act and the lineup are both vocal/instrumental. But I mostly try to avoid singer-songwriters, and far too often they're either friends of the committee or on the committee and accordingly get floorspots in front of acts I'd like to see. Maybe people who watch TV are more tolerant of that sort of thing, they're used to putting up with unwanted crap in the adverts. |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: GUEST,John from Kemsing Date: 11 Apr 08 - 11:24 AM I once heard of an international folk singer who was booked at a club in Essex and demanded there were no floor performers that night. I wonder who that was?? |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: GUEST Date: 11 Apr 08 - 02:30 PM Singer songwriters are to be avoided are they. OK Mr Dylan, say goodnight!!
Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: Acorn4 Date: 11 Apr 08 - 02:53 PM Most floorspots are relatively brief because they are just floorspots, so I suppose singer-songwriters can be included in the mix.I would tend to go for Heinz 57. I don't actually run a club myself but know people who do. I think the most annoying thing would be people who turn up on a guest night for a floor spot knowing that there will be a big audience to see the guest and jumping on the bandwagon. Apparently some even stipulate which particular slot they want - I would make sure that the regular attenders get a slot whatever they do! |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: Jack Campin Date: 11 Apr 08 - 04:45 PM Some singer-songwriters are okay. The original GUEST is one of the organizers of Edinburgh Folk Club, and can presumably testify to seeing me at Leon Rosselson's gig there a while ago. Rosselson is a *talented* singer-songwriter with something to say. Dylan and his imitators are exactly what I want to avoid. And they clutter up the floorspot lists of folk clubs like spray cleaner ads on TV. It was exactly such an act at EFC I was thinking of when making that posting. I couldn't think of any reason he was allowed on stage unless the committee owed him a *big* favour. |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: Acorn4 Date: 11 Apr 08 - 04:59 PM Jack Campin - I see your point -personally, I know it all comes down to personal opinion but Mr Zimmerman is one of the few people I would dub with that over-used word "genius", but I know what you mean because the current trend among singer-songwriters seems to be to be introspective/depressive to the point of making Leonard Cohen seem positively cheerful. If you hear the phrase "this song is about a failed relationship" switch off for twenty minutes. But, instrumentalists can also get into their own little worlds -it's my turn for a solo now - nodding head - etc,etc. The main point is to consider the audience - if a performance has character people won't mind technical imperfections. |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: open mike Date: 11 Apr 08 - 07:28 PM by "floor spot" does this mean that someone from the audience can get up and sing at a concert where people paid to hear someone else? We do not understand the concept of floor spot in the U.S. i guess. Sometimes there is a (paid) opening band or performer at an event, but I am not sure what "floor spot" means. who decides when and who does this? is there a time and place to request to be allowed to do this? Are there "sign up's"? We hold jams, song circles and sessions, where anyone can sing or play, but I do not know of a paid event where there is such. |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: GUEST,Gerry Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:11 PM open mike, I can't give you any general answers, but I can tell you a little bit about my experiences at The Loaded Dog Folk Club in Sydney, Australia (and Sandra in Sydney can tell you much, much more), Floor spots are sometimes arranged on the spot. The first time I did a floor spot at The Dog, the organizer, who knew that I could sing a little but maybe didn't know that I had never sung for a paying audience, asked me before the show began if I'd like to sing a couple of songs. After I came to, I weakly nodded agreement, and, if memory serves, led the assembled multitudes in a rousing rendition of Barrett's Privateers. I wish I could say, "A star was born;" I think I can say I didn't embarrass myself. Floor spots are sometimes arranged in advance. My daughter and I wanted to try our act out on a live audience before facing the crowds at the National Folk Festival; I asked the Dog organizer well in advance if we could do a floor spot, which she graciously allowed us. As to whether the floor spots should complement or contrast with the main act, or what, I don't have any strong opinions on that, but I'll tell one more story. One time when the Dog organizer was away she asked a friend to step in. The friend asked me to do a floor spot, and introduced me to the audience as a singer of traditional ballads. Unfortunately, I had prepared a couple of 1960s songs to do if I was offered a floor spot, and I'm not one of those people who has so many songs at his command that he can sing whatever style he's asked to. So I sang my 60s songs and hoped that the emcee wouldn't think I was trying to make a fool of her. Having seen some of the discussion above, I now hope I didn't destroy some elaborate plan to balance the evening's entertainment by singing Tom Lehrer in a slot reserved for Barbry Ellen. But I don't think I'll lose any sleep over it. |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: Tangledwood Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:40 PM "Guest" - how are your folk club nights conducted? If the main acts are advertised beforehand, e.g next week will be Celtic instrumental band xxxx, I don't think anybody has a right to complain if they turn up and don't hear any Phil Ochs songs. On the other hand if no prior advertising is done a fair expectation would be a variety of what is usual at the club. In the latter case turning up and finding the entire evening is dedicated to bluegrass might not go down well. Gerry - Don't lose any sleep. I would say that the onus is on the MC to at least have a quick chat with the performer beforehand to find out what they are going to do. |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: GUEST,John J in Edinburgh Date: 12 Apr 08 - 03:35 AM Thanks for all the replies. Sorry about not posting my name. I'm actually a member here and thought I had been logged on. Now, I can't get back in for some reason as there seems to be some problem. Basically, our short support is just an extended floor spot albeit pre-arranged. It lasts 15-20 mins maximum. We also have regular floor spots with singers and musicians..not too many,.. and we just draw on people who happen to be along there that night. All of this is unpaid and the "opening spots" usually volunteer to perform for various reasons, eg exposure, sometimes they like the main act etc. Of course, it's up to us to decide whether they are appropriate for the night in question and most of the time we *do* try to have a bit of variety. However, with a weekly club it's not always possible to have perfectly planning on every occasion. There is the tendency too for singers to attend for unaccompanied singers and instrumentalists to come to see "tune bands" and solo musicians etc. Of course, there's also various permutations in between plus the singer/songwriters, of course. :-)) It's probably easier to manage on such nights. |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: joseph Date: 12 Apr 08 - 05:29 AM It is essential to have singers otherwise the night can become a bit of a bore no matter how good the musicians are. any sessios in Ireland always has a singers spot |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: Johnny J Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:17 AM Ah, now I know what he problem was.. ;-)) |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: Marje Date: 14 Apr 08 - 10:09 AM I don't think anyone's quite answered part of the original question: is it more important to offer songs in the support spots when the main guest is instrumental-only than it is to offer instrumental spots when the guest is a vocalist, and if so is this a double standard? Well, all it a double standard if you like, but I'd say yes. If a guest is a purely instrumental player or band, they've got to be very good indeed to hold the audience's attention (some good patter helps, as I noticed with I went to see Bain/Cunningham on their current tour). If, on the other hand, you've got a vocalist for your main act, it's likely there will be some instrumentation as well. And even if that's not the case and it's an entirely unaccompanied singer, some of your floor-spot singers will very likely be offering some accompaniment to their songs. So the two situations are not parallel. I also feel that songs can communicate more directly with the audience in a way that instrumental music does not. It's easy to begin to feel disconnected from the music when you listen to a whole evening of instrumental music, but a song helps to engage the listener. That's one reason why, in open sessions in pubs, the punters at the bar will often come up and say "Don't you do any songs?" They'll applaud and look more appreciative if there's the occasional song in a mainly instrumental music session. That's how I see it, and I'm both a song person and a music person, so I don't think I'm particularly biased either way. Marje |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: Tattie Bogle Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:57 PM Like Marje I enjoy both songs and tunes in equal measure, and hence enjoy a mixed bag: I can get bored with too much of one or the other solely. I realise that if floor spots are entirely ad hoc, then you can only go with what you've got on the night, so this might result in having all singers, or all instrumentalists. But if you are having booked floor spots, then it doesn't seem unreasonable to have some of each. As for: "Moreover, is it really fair on the bulk of the audience who have specifically come to listen to a particular genre of music/song to be subjected to something completely different. It might be of high quality but it's not what they've come to hear." Spurious argument, IMHO. I come to hear good music, whether it's vocal or instrumental, and as stated above, a mix is the way to keep the majority happy. |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: Johnny J Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:07 AM "if you are having booked floor spots, then it doesn't seem unreasonable to have some of each" As I say, there wouldn't have been any complaint if both the support and main act were singers! Also, it's not always possible to plan support spots down to exact detail. You've got to take what's available or on offer on the night. It's much more likely that instrumentalists will volunteer on a music night and singers will want to support other singers. Yes, you can vary things up to a point but if you become too dictatorial you might end up losing the good will of those who are giving their services for free albiet voluntarily... "I come to hear good music, whether it's vocal or instrumental, and as stated above, a mix is the way to keep the majority happy. " You are speaking for yourself here. That's fair enough but you can't speak for the majority. |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: Jack Campin Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:46 PM There is such a large audience for folk music in Edinburgh that EFC can easily get a good house for either an all-instrumental or all-vocal bill. It's just nuts to suggest that an all-instrumental concert "wouldn't hold the audience's attention" - the problem is more that EFC can't afford A-list instrumental acts like Alasdair Fraser or the Red Hot Chilli Pipers. BUT the audience for, say, Allan Macdonald or Nuala Kennedy's band has practically zero overlap with that for Bob Dylan/James Blunt soundalikes. Booking the one and having the other as support is just going to annoy the people who've come for the main act. (But it seems that EFC's committee's friends are all singer/songwriter types, so there isn't often a situation where s/s buffs get annoyed by pipers, fiddlers or accordionists - or for that matter by traditional ballad singers). |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: Tattie Bogle Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:16 PM Johnny J: you claim to speak for the majority yourself when you say that: Moreover, is it really fair on the bulk of the audience who have specifically come to listen to a particular genre of music/song to be subjected to something completely different. It might be of high quality but it's not what they've come to hear. Where is your evidence for that statement? Why not research opinion in your annual questionnarie on the year's performances? Then you might have some justification for your assertions about majorities. On the night in question it was definitely too much of the same. I had specifically come to hear the guest group, whom I knew to be instrumentalists and not singers, and that's fine. All I said (yes, I confess it was me!) was that it would have been nice to have heard at least one song during the evening, which could have been provided by a floor spot. I'll even offer to sing myself if you'll let me, but perhaps I don't reach EFC's exacting standards. And I'm coming tonight, to hear another instrumentalist (I don't think I've ever heard him sing). And you say "there wouldn't be any complaint if it was all singing". I wasn't complaining, merely making an observation, and I thought, a constructive suggestion. If you had singers as the main guests, then, yes, it would be good to hear some instrumentalists as floor spots. And I have already acknowledged that I realise it is not always possible to plan floor spots in advance, although it seems that at least some of them are pre-arranged. |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Apr 08 - 09:01 PM "...this song is about a failed relationship" might be an intro to any number of excellent traditional songs. For example Little Musgrove... |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: GUEST,PMB Date: 16 Apr 08 - 04:00 AM It is Mc G, but it doesn't explore the inner feelings of Lord Barnyard, Little Musgrave or Lady Barnyard, it cuts straight to the sex, the chase, and the blood. SSWs almost never tell a story. |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:48 AM Apart from the ones who do. |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: Johnny J Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:20 PM "Why not research opinion in your annual questionnaire on the year's performances?" Well, unfortunately..as you know.. this survey is extremely flawed and only the members of EFC are asked for their opinion. Now, it is actually quite probable that they would appreciate a more "mixed bag" but on most reasonably *busy* mights, people specifically come to see a particular artist or genre of music. Most of the outsiders who came along on Wednesday were fiddle enthusiasts.You'll be wanting singers at Fiddle 2008 next. ;-)) Anyway, TB. I don't wish us to fall out over this. I'm more annoyed at Jack Campin.... :-)) It just isn't true that the majority of supports are friends of the committee. There are probably more singer songwriters than I would like but folk clubs seem to attract them. Many of the opening acts contact us and we do our best to give most of them a chance. We have had several instrumental acts as support and unaccompanied singers too. It certainly wasn't a singer songwriter last week!!! "the problem is more that EFC can't afford A-list instrumental acts like Alasdair Fraser or the Red Hot Chilli Pipers." Actually, we probably could afford them at a push but it would depend on availability and other circumstances. next month, we have Kevin Burke. You can't get any more "A list" than that. |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: Johnny J Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:23 PM Oh by the way TB... "Where is your evidence for that statement?" It wasn't a statement but a question. I do know that might seem a little pedantic but there is a subtle difference.. :-)) See you soon. |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: GUEST,brackenrigg Date: 17 Apr 08 - 05:40 AM Instrumental acts are bound to attract an audience of very critical musicians, some of whom may be able to sing and choose not to. Floor singers (and especially club organisers) who lack stage-presence or who have not practised their material should bear this in mind - do they really want to be ripped to shreds by discerning people who can do better? |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: Marje Date: 17 Apr 08 - 06:52 AM I'm not sure what you're saying, Brackenrigg - do you mean that instrumental musicians are in a position to criticise singers, but not vice versa? Is it not equally the case that when there's a good singer as the main act, there will be lots of keen singers there, who may be competent instrumentalists too, but prefer not to play when the rest of the evening is going to be instrumental? These singers won't relish an out-of-tune fiddle solo or a guitarist who plays the wrong chords to his mate's accordion tune, any more than the rest of the audience - a good singer will have an ear for intonation and harmonies, and an awareness of stage presence and presentation, and may be just as discerning as an instrumentalist. Marje |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: Tattie Bogle Date: 18 Apr 08 - 07:25 PM Well there we had it! A marvellous instrumentalist (Tony McManus) who decided to sing on a couple of his numbers, including a very good version of "Lord Gregory"! You could have knoocked Johnny J down with a feather! Statements and questions? Observations and complaints? Aye, let's not fall out over semantics, but.............O, forget it! |
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Subject: RE: A Song and a Tune From: Johnny J Date: 21 Apr 08 - 11:18 AM Well, I actually knew Tony sings from time to time. Was it not yourself who got the surprise? :-)) |
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