BS: Completely out of order?

Subject: BS: Completely out of order?
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 08:55 PM

The Nobel Prize in medicine has gone to Robert (Bob) Edwards, a man whose work led to the first test tube baby, an achievement that helped bring 4 million infants into the world bringing 'joy to infertile people all over the world'.

Edwards and his research partner Patrick Steptoe, who died in 1988, faced opposition to their IVF experiments; some government officials thought it more important to limit fertility than treat infertility.

William Ledger, head of reproductive medicine at Sheffield University, said, "The only sadness is that Patrick Steptoe has not lived to see this day because it was always a joint team effort."

But the Nobel is not given posthumously.

It was not immediately clear why it took so long to honour such groundbreaking research. Initially, there was concern about the health of test-tube babies.
However, in Bristol, Brown, the first IVF success, is now 32.
In a statement issued by the Bourn Hall clinic, she said she and her mother are "so glad that one of the pioneers of IVF has been given the recognition he deserves. We hold Bob in great affection and are delighted to send our personal congratulations to him and his family at this time."

Louise gave birth in 2007 to a son who was conceived naturally.

The Nobel Committee said "In retrospect, it is amazing that Edwards not only was able to respond to the continued criticism of IVF, but that he also remained so persistent and unperturbed in fulfilling his scientific vision,"

Johanna Nannung, a Stockholm woman who has a personal reason to praise the award (her daughter, Olivia, was born after she and her husband underwent four years of IVF treatments) said

"It was incredible. Olivia is the most wonderful and fantastic thing that has ever happened to me. In my life I have always seen myself with a family and children. It's worth more than everything,"

A Vatican official, Mr Carrasco, has said the awarding of the Nobel Prize for Medicine to British IVF pioneer is "completely out of order" as the award ignored the ethical questions raised by the fertility treatment although he stressed that he was speaking in a personal capacity.

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: michaelr
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 12:31 AM

Assuming that the Vatican official was not speaking out of concern about overpopulation, he demontrates once again the utter disconnect and irrelevance of the Catholic church.

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 12:32 AM

Once again Catholicism demonstrates its idiocy.

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 02:12 AM

"Assuming that the Vatican official was not speaking out of concern about overpopulation"

Which it never has, except in 'poor countries' ....

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: Tangledwood
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 04:54 AM

"Assuming that the Vatican official was not speaking out of concern about overpopulation"

Which it never has, except in 'poor countries' ....


And what are the Vatican's ethical answers to questions about overpopulation, STD and contraception?

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 06:03 AM

Once again, we have the ridiculous situation, of those who do not partake of the entreé, telling us how to eat the sweet.

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 06:11 AM

It was a very fine humanitarian development in medicine. Millions of what were couples are now families. What a great thought. If the pope is worried about all those wasted eggs and embryos he could, when he kneels down tonight at bedtime, ask God why HE chucks away so many.

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 06:16 AM

"A Vatican official, Mr Carrasco, has said the awarding of the Nobel Prize for Medicine to British IVF pioneer is "completely out of order" ... although he stressed that he was speaking in a personal capacity."

An official making a *public* statement, is acting in an official capacity not a personal one, and as such should keep their personal thoughts to themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 06:25 AM

Ah yes, those religious officials who get the right to spout their "personal opinions" to the whole world! The rest of us, I suppose, just have to chance our arms writing to The Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:21 AM

He was talking for himself, the church not only accepts IVF I know two couples who their parish priest said to look into doing it since everything else failed. One had twins 2 years ago and they are beautiful kids ... careful to separate opinion of one person as being opinion of the church. The church has some bone head man made rules but this ain't one of them OK

kind regards

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:40 AM

I wonder how many Vatican officials were interviewed before one was found with this particular view?

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:54 AM

"the church not only accepts IVF I know two couples who their parish priest said to look into doing it since everything else failed. One had twins 2 years ago and they are beautiful kids ... careful to separate opinion of one person as being opinion of the church. The church has some bone head man made rules but this ain't one of them OK"

Every source I've dug up on Google has contradicted what you say. As far as I can make out, the Catholic Church is implacably opposed to IVF.

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:59 AM

What does the Catholic Church say about IVF

"The Vatican opposes IVF and related procedures because embryos created in a laboratory are often discarded, whereas others are frozen and still others are created for medical research purposes, for example to create stem cells."

INSTRUCTION ON RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE IN ITS ORIGIN

AND ON THE DIGNITY OF PROCREATION
REPLIES TO CERTAIN QUESTIONS OF THE DAY

5. IS HOMOLOGOUS 'IN VITRO' FERTILIZATION MORALLY LICIT?

"Although the manner in which human conception is achieved with IVF and ET cannot be approved, every child which comes into the world must in any case be accepted as a living gift of the divine Goodness and must be brought up with love."

6. HOW IS HOMOLOGOUS ARTIFICIAL INSEMINATION TO BE EVALUATED FROM THE MORAL POINT OF VIEW?

"If the technical means facilitates the conjugal act or helps it to reach its natural objectives, it can be morally acceptable. If, on the other hand, the procedure were to replace the conjugal act, it is morally illicit.
Artificial insemination as a substitute for the conjugal act is prohibited by reason of the voluntarily achieved dissociation of the two meanings of the conjugal act

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:59 AM

I just read that to , the opposition is in regard to fertilized embryos that are discarded. IVF is performed at Catholic hospitals but care is taken with the embryos as they are life my understanding and I have a doc friend who works at a big catholic hospital. I know my parish priest told them to do it since God will decided if or if not a child is born ..

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:03 AM

By the way at one of the Catholic Hospital (I recently was a heart patient) they have a beautiful garden for fetus's that have been lost due to miscarriage, they are buried with dignity and not tossed in the garbage.

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:06 AM

Well, pretty much every member of the Catholic Church I know doesn't let the Church interfere with their religion. Like the ordination of women (in what is now the Slovakia and the Czech Republic, back in the Bad Old Days) or giving oral contraceptives to the nuns in the Congo back in the early '60s, the Church has long had a "do as I say" attitude. As a result the Church has lost Ireland, the US, France, Germany....

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:16 AM

Rap you are correct there are lots of bone head rules that are man made IMO in the church. However, the decision to raise children rests with the husband and wife. Their decision, so if they do IVF or don't do IVF and they are Catholic. Why does anyone here on this thread care as you are not the father or the mother? How does the decision to use IVF or not use IVF by a Catholic affect your day to day life, unless of course it is only to strengthen ill will as it seems lately.

Rap is right with contraceptives, unwanted pregnancies and disease affects everyone so their is a valid concern ... but not in this case.

I heard a priest say, scientific means for having a child is fine, but one cannot carelessly discard life .. that is the only issue. To the church if 3 eggs are fertilized 3 are implanted. By the way my understanding is they normally implant 6-8 with one taking. The church doesn't want lets fertilize 15 freeze them so someday within the next 2 years we can use them and then toss a life away. That is their position. That is how the priest here councils and how the catholic hospitals handle it .. not a bad approach to me. But again I am not a young man with a young wife who wants kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:38 AM

Catechism of the Catholic Church on reproductive technologies

2376
Techniques that entail the dissociation of husband and wife, by the intrusion of a person other than the couple (donation of sperm or ovum, surrogate uterus), are gravely immoral.
These techniques (heterologous artificial insemination and fertilization) infringe the child's right to be born of a father and mother known to him and bound to each other by marriage. They betray the spouses' "right to become a father and a mother only through each other."

2377
Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable.
They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. The act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person.
Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children." "Under the moral aspect procreation is deprived of its proper perfection when it is not willed as the fruit of the conjugal act, that is to say, of the specific act of the spouses' union. . . . Only respect for the link between the meanings of the conjugal act and respect for the unity of the human being make possible procreation in conformity with the dignity of the person."

While I understand any compassionate priest saying scientific means for having a child are fine this still remains contrary to the church's edict.

An interesting discussion on the 'moral issues' on the Catholic Answers Forums

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:45 AM

You are right Emma, I do not follow such things in the church as it has no affect on my life.   My local priest is probably more liberal and compassionate, which is why the church has fallen on very hard times for not understanding. I stand corrected. But again it affects no one's life except the folks involved. No one here will pay more taxes or get a disease because a couple decides not to do IVF.

Reading through it, it looks like another man made catholic law that most everyone will ignore who want children .. The lady that had the two beautiful twins went to the biggest hospital in the area and it is a Catholic health care.   I guess they just don't want people to throw away embryos ... Well like contraceptives, it is ignored

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:58 AM

I do agree with the church on their embryo stance but not in the act part. That to me is nonsense since the couple is obviously in love or why would they do that dah! People who are in love and want a child that bad and would go through all of that cost will most likely be wonderful parents.

I went to church on Sunday (Catholic) beautiful service, great priest. He talks about faith .. not about this world stuff. For me when they or anyone starts on the world stuff in church, I walk out. Cause I don't use any building or leader except the God I believe in.

Kind regards
I will leave it
Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 11:04 AM

God doesn't agree on the embryo stance. He's made the system very wasteful. Another example of intelligent design I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Completely out of order?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 05:51 PM

And every fertile woman ever has had natural abortions, I wonder if ID sees this as designed justification why women should be punished and degraded for having abortions .... sigh ...