BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin

Subject: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Janie
Date: 15 May 11 - 11:30 PM

(If there is already a thread about this that has dropped off, please just combine. I couldn't find one, but that doesn't mean it ain't there.)

First and foremost, all our Mudcatters OK? If not, anything one or some of us can do to help - in the short range or probably more importantly, in the long range?

Went through a severe flood myself in 1985, and the house was only under water for about 3 days. As I follow the flood on major news outlets, and hear how many homes and farms are likely to be flooded for weeks, my heart aches for all affected, especially having some idea of the long road ahead of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: open mike
Date: 16 May 11 - 06:44 AM

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2011/05/nasa-releases-new-photos-of-memphis-flood.html

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2011/05/03/mississippi-floods-can-be-restrained-with-natural-defenses/

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: kendall
Date: 16 May 11 - 09:59 AM

The corp of engineers is flooding thousands of acres of farm land to avoid flooding the cities. Does this make sense? Don't we need the farms more than we need the cities?

Why do people live in flood plains? Woodchucks know better than to dig their burrows in a flood plain. Why do they build nuclear power plants in an earthquake zone?What does that say about us?

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 May 11 - 10:15 AM

Why do people live in flood plains?

Because property developers make it so - at least they do in the UK.

We had severe floods in Sussex some years ago - Uckfield and Lewes were hit particularly hard - and the consensus was that building estates of houses, each with it's own concrete drive and roadway, had contributed to the inability of water to flow away naturally.

Probably different in the US, given the comparative sizes of the two countries, but the question you've asked has to be asked.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Goose Gander
Date: 16 May 11 - 11:03 AM

It's a calculated risk, like living on a dry hillside in southern California, or on the gulf coast waiting for a hurricane. As for property developers, I'm sure they're not forcing anyone to buy the houses they build, either in the US or the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 11 - 11:44 AM

Will the show Swamp People be effected?


Cajun culture is going to have a long memory of being sold down the river as spillways continue to fill up their homes in an attempt to save New Orleans and Baton Rouge.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 May 11 - 11:46 AM

Why do people live in flood plains?

Various reasons:

because that's where you can get water

because that's where you can build a sanitation system and safer roads

because that's where you can grow crops

because big rivers have broad floodplains built over millenia, and there are parts that are unlikely ever to flood

because they put more faith in levees than they should have

because the poorer you are, the worse will be the quality of your homesite

because they didn't want to be hillbillies

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 May 11 - 11:47 AM

As for property developers, I'm sure they're not forcing anyone to buy the houses they build, either in the US or the UK.

Of course not - but I'll bet few of the people who bought houses around the towns in Sussex ever thought they'd be susceptible to severe flooding. "Safe as houses" eh? It's the long-term planning on the part of local authorities that's at fault. If you consistently allow known flood plains to be developed by companies who, in the end, are only interested in selling houses, then the environment is changed for ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Goose Gander
Date: 16 May 11 - 11:55 AM

People have lived on floodplains for thousands of years. Again, it's caculated risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: pdq
Date: 16 May 11 - 11:56 AM

The news is presented in a way that maximises the emotional impact.

Facts be hanged, as usual.

These people are notified every year that the land will be flooded if necessary. They are told not to build anything permanent and to be ready to leave quickly.

Likely, many are simply farming government-owned land anyway, essentially squatters, but I can't find a reliable news source right now.

Everybody wishes them well, and the crops they grow are much appreciated, but they know the rules and play the game anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Bill D
Date: 16 May 11 - 12:32 PM

It is possible to calculate the odds of flooding and forbid certain uses of land in 10-25-50-100 year flood plains. The information has been available for 50 years.

   One small town in (Iowa?) decided a few years ago they were in the wrong place and moved the entire town to safer ground. The cities which are too large to do this could at least regulate what is built where. People who feel they MUST live in regularly flooded areas could build houses on stilts...and not dig basements.


(the only real 'solution' is to reduce the population so no one had to live in danger....but we all know how likely that is)

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Charmion
Date: 16 May 11 - 12:47 PM

Is this year's flooding season worse than the spring floods of 1993?

I remember reading about terrific floods in the Mississippi-Missouri valleys back then, but the reports I'm reading now don't mention the 1993 episode.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Melissa
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:03 PM

Charmion,
I don't remember levees being blown or other similar actions to divert flooding to save one area and flood another in '93. There was sandbagging and a scurry to get people moved as the water rose, but I sure don't remember guys in offices making decisions on which areas to save. I might have missed that part though..busy finding alternate routes and no tv to hear what was going on with decisions and such.

It was a different area, mostly rural and small towns in '93 and I remember our flooding as being kind of gradual (but steady).
Maybe there were rushes and major human intervention..but I don't remember hearing about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:10 PM

The New Yorker Magazine has posted John McPhee's 1987 article, "Atchafalaya", online and outside its paywall (which is to say, available to read for free).

This is a wonderful (and lengthy) article on the history, politics, and mechanics of Mississippi flood control -- a supreme example of human arrogance that has been going on since the founding of New Orleans in the early 1700s.

It takes a bit of time to read, but it's worth it.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Bettynh
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:18 PM

John McPhee wrote about the spillway they're opening in his book "The Control of Nature." It's a compelling story. Basically, he explains that the Atchafalaya River has over the past couple centuries been strengthening and straightening. Left to itself, it would have taken over the main mouth of the Mississippi by now. If that had been allowed to happen, New Orleans would have sillted up and the port would have died. The spillway blocks the flow, diverting it to New Orleans. Perhaps Katrina would have only washed away a ghost town.

Even with this threat of flood, they're only proposing that 50 per cent of the possible flow be diverted to the Atchafalaya. He singled out Morgan City as the most at risk. It's a great story with all sorts of implications for everyone from nature lovers to conspiracy theorists, yet at the bottom it's going to be people who have lived in one place for many years looking at waay too much water coming their way.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Bettynh
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:22 PM

Becky, we crossposted. Thanks for finding that online. That article was reprinted in the book I mentioned along with other articles about California landslides and Icelandic lava flows.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:25 PM

I hope things go OK for everybody over there. Everything is fine as long as you are not affected, but this has to be very devastating for those affected, irrespective of the reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:54 PM

For years before the walls and levees, the rivers overflowed their banks and flooded the lands, bringing nutrient and new soil, renewing the fields and farms.
The major rivers suck as the Mississippi have been more and more restricted, the waters kept from flooding the land, and carrying their load to the sea.

The practice is exacerbated because those wanting to live on the flood plains are compensated in many cases by insurance.
If insurance was refused, some of the original purpose of floodplains and marshes could be restored.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:07 PM

People build in floodplains and build nuclear power stations near major plate boundaries because of: (a) greed, (b) stupidity, (c) population pressures, (d) a general contempt for the environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Goose Gander
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:16 PM

"the only real 'solution' is to reduce the population so no one had to live in danger....but we all know how likely that is"

Well, I supposed that if we 'reduced' the population to zero then noone would ever live in danger. Life is dangerous, no matter what you end up dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Bettynh
Date: 16 May 11 - 03:23 PM

Wikipedia on the Morganza Spillway has some very interesting maps that show the possible consequences of opening and not opening the flood control structures available.

Melissa, I couldn't find reference to blowing up levees in 1993, but the failures of several helped to save some cities. Blowing up a levee was part of the story of the 1927 flood in New Orleans, though. It caused more damage than it relieved, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: kendall
Date: 16 May 11 - 04:05 PM

Why do people still live under the threat of Mt. Vesuvius?

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: pattyClink
Date: 16 May 11 - 04:12 PM

A lot of this land is wooded bottomland and swamp. It is part of Cajun country, it is where the Acadian people took refuge generations ago when they got kicked out of Canada, because nobody bothered them there in the Atchafalaya basin. It has been a place where you could subsist off the water and all its creatures, hunting, fishing, etc.

It is not a place where greedy developers have sold people lots.

A better question is, why do people have to live below sea level in New Orleans, and if they do, why are their levees not strong enough to withstand a 'project flood' and, if so, why do their rural neighbors have to take the fall for them when the Mississippi rises?

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Janie
Date: 17 May 11 - 12:33 AM

In the news reports I am reading, for the most part I don't read that people being flooded are angry that they are being flooded so that more densely populated areas are spared. It appears the annual notification is effective in helping people understand the risk they take when they buy or build in those areas. That doesn't mean they are not deserving of sympathy or empathy, or that it is less heartbreaking.

As Goose gander notes - a calculated risk for many. For others, such as the impoverished Mississippi Delta region, it is simply a reality of life. Accepting that doesn't make it any less devastating when it happens. 1000's of people at least have sufficient warning to get themselves and many of their possessions (if they have the means to move them) out of harm's way.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: kendall
Date: 17 May 11 - 03:08 AM

Trying to fight nature is like throwing Cheerios at a battleship. Stupid.Nature will always win in any struggle with mankind.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 17 May 11 - 03:11 AM

I saw some bloke on the news last night, who decided he was not moving out. What a plonker.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 17 May 11 - 07:59 AM

"It rained five days and the sky was black as night" Bessie Smith Back Country Blues about the 1927 floods.

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 17 May 11 - 09:15 AM

Just for you Roger :-)

Bessie Smith - Back Country Blues

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Goose Gander
Date: 17 May 11 - 10:18 AM

"Nature will always win in any struggle with mankind."

Yeah, why did we ever bother with the polio vaccine, or agriculture for that matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 17 May 11 - 10:41 AM

More Back Water Blues (thanks for the tip!):

Lonnie Johnson
Big Bill Broonzy

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: gnu
Date: 17 May 11 - 04:35 PM

Does anyone know where the height of land is between the flow to Hudson's Bay and to The Gulf Of Mexico? That is, where do the headwaters of the Mississippi begin? Around Winnepeg somewhere? I can't tell from Google Earth. Google says Lake Itasca in Minnesota but there is a tributary to the west that seems to enter Canada and although GE shows vegetation rather than open water in the more northern section, it would still carry water. And, given the flooding in Saskatchewan, I suspect it is feeding Old Miss at present.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 18 May 11 - 02:17 PM

Thanks, Arthur, but (as you probably guessed!)I DO have her version (& Lonnie Johnson & Lead Belly's versions) on record!

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Bettynh
Date: 18 May 11 - 04:02 PM

Gnu, does this help?

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: gnu
Date: 18 May 11 - 04:27 PM

Bettynh... yeeees maid! I knew I wasn't dreamin. Given the fact that SASK is up to the tops of their boots and beyond and so is everyone else on a number of systems, it's quite sommat to realize just how big the catchment area of Old Miss really is... even the US governments don't know... according to their sites I found on Google. Geeze oh eh?

Thanks love.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Donuel
Date: 18 May 11 - 10:14 PM

All the farms along the river were mostly corn, soy and cotton.

Is there an estimate of how many tons of crops will be lost?????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 18 May 11 - 10:59 PM

(new music thread on the topic - current or previous floods: Songs of Mississippi floods)

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 19 May 11 - 04:30 AM

Sorry Roger. I mean't that I had put the link up, so people could listen to it. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 May 11 - 10:36 AM

People don't seem to understand the word 'floodplain.'

A floodplain is not a place where there's gonna be flood pretty soon. It's a swath of land built by a river as it winds to and fro across it. Floodplains can be many miles across. They can hold hundreds of feet of soft clay, gravel, and sand in layers.

Precious groundwater is to be found in those layers.

There are parts of the floodplain so far from the river that they will not flood for centuries, if ever.

The floodplains are bordered by bluffs. Once you climb the bluff, water can be in short supply.

Have you ever driven I-35 south of Des Moines and seen the beautiful, empty Iowa countryside? There's almost no development because there's not enough water.

Floodplains can be huge because when the glaciers melted (say 10,000 years ago) the rivers were far bigger than they are now.

If you want to decide whether

A) Mr. Jones is a fool for building near a river or
B) the government is arrogant

you first have to learn all about the floodplain under discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 May 11 - 11:23 AM

In doing a little research on Bessie Smith's "Backwater Blues", I came on this PBS American Experience, "The Fatal Flood, A story of greed, power and race" website for a past program (copyright 1999-2000) about the 1927 flood that has lots of interesting information.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Flooding along the Mississippi Basin
From: Janie
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 04:28 PM

What happens when the floodwaters of the Missouri start down the Mississippi? More flooding along the Mississippi, or has the water gone down enough on the Mississippi that a new wave of flooding is not expected?