BS: Would you pay extra?

Subject: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 02:50 PM

For a Jeep named after a video game?

Jeep modern warfare 3 edition

Maybe the Mudcat should have its own car model?

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 02:52 PM

No way.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 02:59 PM

They also have one named after Wrangler jeans. Silly gimmick.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 03:36 PM

I wouldn't drive a Jeep in the first place

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 04:07 PM

The Jeep Wrangler is popular here, with mountainous country and forestry roads (Canadian Rockies) close at hand. The Rubicon models are good on the Foothills ranches.

A few years back there was a "Tomb Raider" limited special edition; it is a collector's item, worth a premium. The few lucky purchasers have a prize!
Description here:
http://www.dodgeboy.net/news/tombraiderrubicon/index.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: gnu
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 08:58 PM

What amazes me is the price. It's a tin can. Automatic transmission is rare, air conditioning is taking off the roof and the doors... get THIS - no gas cap cover! It's supposed to be a backwoods buggy and it does NOT have a gas cap cover??? NO wonder Toyota is kickin their ass. Ridiculous!

I mean, come ON! NO gas cap cover?

Two years ago, I paid less for an F150 extended cab 4X4 with FAR more creature comforts that gets better gas mileage and I can go as far as the Cheep piece a crap with a few add ons... still under the price of a Cheep. Yuppies eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 09:24 PM

Once Jeep was a quality product. The current Jeep models are pieces of crap & I'd never own another one.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Bert
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 01:00 AM

...NO wonder Toyota is kickin their ass...

But they also can make mistakes in naming a vehicle. Whoever would buy a vehicle called a Tacoma?

Probably the most spectacular engineering disaster of the Twentieth Century

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 07:56 AM

If you want a serious off road vehicle that will fit through trees, and is usually bodgeable back to "get you home" state in the field, I suggest Land Rover.

If you want one that bounces, largely unscathed, off trees, I suggest a UMM Alter.

If you want to cruise across empty deserts and have your own oil well, try a Hummer.

The classic Toyota FJ40 is OK.

The CJ3 and earlier Jeeps are OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Becca72
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 10:48 AM

I used to own a 1998 Jeep Cherokee and I LOVED it. Drove it to 200k miles and was sad the day I had to let her go (she still ran fine, I just upgraded to the VW I'm driving now.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 11:47 AM

Only if a Ma Deuce (and ammunition) is included, and probably not even then.

In short, no.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:18 PM

No.
My Hyundai travels 10 miles a day to and from work, has a gas cap and treats me well. 2008 with 22,000 miles on it. Bought it used with 13,000 over two years ago.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 02:38 PM

The last time I looked fairly seriously at a Jeep, the "base price" was about 30% more than a more or less comparable Chevy or Ford. This was so long ago that "UTEs" hadn't appeared.

Then I found out that for the Jeep, the seats, steering wheel, and tailgate (among other things) all were "extra cost options."

To get to a usable, more or less comparable, Jeep would have run very close to double the price of the closest Chevy Blazer (not a particularly great vehicle, but it served well enough).

Prices then were more nearly comparable in the used market, but still with a noticeable premium for the Jeep. (i.e. Jeeps depreciated faster than anything else?)

Things may have changed some in 20 years. I don't know since I haven't looked again.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 03:00 PM

If you never go further off road than Sainsbury's car park - DON'T bother with a serious 4 wheel drive, and if you have MUCH more money than sense try a modern Audi or Merc 4-wheel drive. Guaranteed to get stuck on the first bit of sticky stuff.   Even the shit like Korandos and the self-dismantling Mahindras are better. Lada Nivas were very good indeed off road but not usually for long since bits dropped off and the monocoque shells rusted - although the Welsh wizard Kim Conway made some very capable ones with about an inch of shiny Hammerite on the underneath, wax-filled chassis members, and modified twin-cam FIAT engines. Steam cleaned underneath every time they went off-road which was most weekends in some of the trickier bits of Wales.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: gnu
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 04:09 PM

"If you want a serious off road vehicle that will fit through trees, and is usually bodgeable back to "get you home" state in the field, I suggest Land Rover."

I saw a TV show... Jeep, Toyota, Land Rover and more. The course up this hill was daunting... SERIOUSLY daunting. The Land Rover kicked ass. Left the others in shame.

But, who's got THAT kinda money? Heck... I can buy a Ford F150 with all the perks and throw an ATV in the box and get WAY further than the Rover.

But, if I win the lottery tonight I'll have an ATV on my trailer behind the Rover... >;-)

Speaking of ATVs, the best ATV that ever was, a Bombardier Traxter, is not made anymore as it was a "step-thru" design and looked like a "girl's bike". REAL men wouldn't buy one... the idiots. It was designed to be the ATV with a whack of features that a REAL man would want (so many plusses I won't list them for the sake of brevity) but it's "looks" doomed it. I had one and it could outperform every other ATV I ever rode alongside. If I win the lottery...

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:20 PM

Land Rovers (not Range Rovers - I am talking Series 1 86 or 107 inch, Series 2 2a and 3 88 or 109 inch, Phase 1 v8s, 90s and 110s - oh, and the various forward controls) are not that dear over here in Blighty.

Discoveries and Rangies are pretty good too, but go for an early-ish Rangie before they put traction control on in place of proper diff locking.   

I once went out with a journalist in a brand new and very expensive 4.4 Rangie with automatic traction control and it might as well have been a paddle steamer for all the use it was in slippery but shallow mud.

A couple of weeks later I went out with a bloke with a fairly brutish lifted 3.5 with air lockers at both ends and we walked up the same route - much to the amazement of a bird sunbathing topless on her lawn across which the byway went!

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:26 PM

I guess, to be clear, my original question should have been, if you had your heart set on a jeep, would you pay extra for the video game version?

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:32 PM

Well, I can't imagine wanting a Jeep in the first place....

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:39 PM

How about a Toyota Prius, NPR "Car Talk" edition?

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: gnu
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 07:41 PM

Richard... bloodt costly here in Atlantic Canada.

Rap... they sell hundreds of Jeeps here... but I agree with you... why? An expensive tin can which is certainly NOT worth the asking $. Yuppies without brains?

Seems like a good marketing strategy.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 09:20 PM

Obviously the Jeep Rubicon is not known to those outside the mountain west.
The cabin automatic temperature control and heated front seats provide comfort in frozen Alberta and NWT, the large V6 has plenty of capacity for heating and cooling as well as performance.

The 17 inch wheels with the proper tires gives the ability to travel off-road as well as reasonable comfort on the highway.
Its over 10 inch ground clearance and over 40 degree app and dep. angles are almost unequaled.
At around $35000 it is a hell of a lot cheaper than the Land Rover (for which service is hard to get here, and it is sold only with auto-transmission); the Range Rover is not for the boondocks.
The air suspension for clearance, and the descent features sound good, but I would worry about service.
My son has a Lexus SUV, bought used, equipped for off-road (the base cost new was $65000) and he put thousands in the additions. He uses it as a bedroom when miles from nowhere (logging services).
My daughter has had Toyota and Hyundai, both good SUVs but not for the offroad.
I still use my 1995 Jeep Cherokee, which has had only careful maintenance and never motor or transmission work.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 12:41 AM

I've seen Rubicons here in Colorado. We used to have 1972 Jeepster which was rugged and well-built, but it was damn cold in the winter if we the hard shell to placed back on. We traded it in on a brand-new 1979 Subaru wagon which served us really well out on the ranch...hauled water, light enough not to sink into the snow, went almost everywhere no trouble.

I would not pay extra for a new Jeep, though i wouldn't want one in the first place. At price of a new cars, or even slightly used, we won't be looking at any until fortunes change.s

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 01:06 AM

Would u pay more for a 1979 Subaru wagon with the "Pong" package?

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Bert
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 03:32 AM

I had a LandRover in Iran and it outlasted two chevvy trucks that we had on the site.

Here in Colorado I had an old Ford truck which lasted for years driving in the mountains every day. The back end used to slide a bit when it was icy, actually it used to slide a LOT when it was icy but it never let me down. It was kinda sad when I finally gave it up, but it was full of rust and the manifold leaked. I had bought it for $700 and finally sold it for $300, Pretty good value for money.

When I was in Pennsylvania we had a Nissan Sentra which was almost as good as the Ford truck for what we could carry in it. But that poor thing also rusted out eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 06:14 AM

I was going to buy a new Land Rover Disco, and at the risk of agreeing with Bridge here, (Careful) I decided that as I wasn't going mud plugging, the serious 4x4 features were not needed, so looked at the executive buggy versions from the usual German suspects.

In the end, I bought a Hyundai Santa Fe. It is 4x4 if you want it to be, although even then it will cut back to two wheel mode over 25 mph, and most of the time is in "adaptive" mode meaning one less thing to worry about.

Seriously good motor, saved over £20K versus the competition and amazingly comfortable. Tows the caravan as if it wasn't there and so far so hoopy.

My opinions are subject to change, as the winter is about to say hello. Last year, my Jag, rear wheel drive and fat tyres, can't be forced into starting in second etc etc, sulked in the garage for two weeks in the snow. One thing about getting a 4x4 was to be able to leave the village all year round. We shall see....

Oh, and it is the Vin Garbutt Special Edition......

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 04:03 PM

A daughter has the little Santa Fe SUV, which does excellently for her in British Columbia, but she is not hitting ranch trails or logging roads, just the ski slopes.
She had a Forerunner before (hard on gas), but likes the Hyundai more.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: gnu
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 04:27 PM

Q..."and it is sold only with auto-transmission); the Range Rover is not for the boondocks"

??? Auto tranny working properly is FAR better in rugged country. Now, having said that, the whole system has to work properly... right down to the gas pedal. Case in point, Mum has a Chrysler 300 and I'll be damned if I can get the gas pedal on that pup to respond the way I want it to in reverse in tight spaces.

Granted, I loved my manual F150 4X4 in town and in heavy sloggin but I would never go back after runnin an F150 4X4 with an auto tranny. EXCEPT that the Ford E80 tranny, which they designed to be used in various vehicles like the F150, Taurus, etc, sucks and is prone to problems. The new tranny in my truck, 6 speed, might be even better in heavy sloggin but I haven't tried it yet. I am rather upset that it shifts between 1 and 2 and 2 and 3 the same way the 4 speed E80 did... I gotta a story about that. Short version - after I traded it, the first guy to take it for a test drive blew the tranny.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 04:28 PM

Subaru with pong package- don't know the word, but have seen it used for stink in English writing. Not sure the Subaru was sold here in 1979.

Not too many Subarus here, and over $40,000 equipped. The Toyotas, Hyundais, are common.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 02:12 PM

Jeep keeps coming up with all kinds of variations, but the two I've driven weren't worth it. One was a patrol car that I drove at work and had no choice - a Cherokee. The front door kept falling off the hinges. Nothing makes a police officer look less dignified than having the door fall off the car during an emergency.

And the Wrangler: all the hinges are exposed, and towards the end of its life, I couldn't open the tailgate or the drivers door - I had to enter by the passenger side and crawl over the stick shift to get in. The speedometer stopped working, as well as the gas gauge, then everything else on the dashboard and no mechanic would touch it, as it was too complicated to fix. At night, if you turned on your high beams, the headlights went out. Other repairs for things that never go on other cars amouned to so much that I'm pretty sure I paid for the car twice in the ten years I owned it. And it isn't a comfortable car, either.   

NEVER GET A JEEP.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: RangerSteve
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 02:14 PM

The above entry was from me. I never sign off. My computer does it for me sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: gnu
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 07:46 PM

I can't fit in a Jeep, even after I lost over 100 pounds. I still have a 48" chest and I can't put my left arm down when I sit behind the wheel of a tin can Jeep.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 08:25 PM

Not only would I not pay extra for such a vehicle, I would insist on a discount since the vehicle would essentially be a moving advertisement for the video game.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 07:39 AM

At my age, if I want to get off road I need One of these.

(But it's about the same price of a bottom-line Jeep, I guess.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 08:37 AM

It may be clear to those who've commented above, but for lurkers and lookers it might be worthwhile pointing out that there is a real difference between 4WD and AWD.

4WD (4 Wheel Drive) is the term used when, ideally, torque is applied to all 4 wheels so that any single wheel that has traction can apply some force to moving the vehicle. In real applications, the true 4WD is partially defeated if there's a free differential, since the wheel with least traction will spin and leave nothing going to the wheel that sticks. Limited slip differentials are sometimes of some help, but in the mud - or snow - they may actually make things worse. Fixed gearing, so that both wheels on the same axle must turn at the same speed are rare, so far as I've seen in "anything modern" (and they play h*ll with tire wear).

Even in 4WD vehicles, the transfer case that lets you engage/disengage the front (usually) axle may be a fixed connection (without slip devices) or may be via a differential to allow some speed difference between the two axles; and each axle may or may not include a limited slip device to let the two wheels on the axle turn at different speeds.

A number of recent vehicles advertise AWD (All Wheel Drive) in which some torque is applied to all wheels in normal driving situations. Commonly a "torque divider," usually hydraulic, sends 60% of available torque to the rear axle and 40% to to the front, although the ratio is somewhat variable. Both axles normally have a free differential, so the same situation, where one wheel that slips gets it all, is common. The purpose of AWD is to improve "stability and tracking" in normal driving. It can be very effective on "guttered" roads, where rain accumulates in the tracks made by traffic, by reducing the tendency for the vehicle to twitch and shudder and try to pull off in strange directions, and may be of some limited help in light icing conditions; but it's virtually useless for most offroad conditions (although in most cases it's not noticeable worse than 2WD).

AWD is, in fact, useful for normal driving on good or mediocre roads, but is not the same thing as 4WD.

(But we all knew that, of course.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 05:11 AM

The AWD Subaru Forrester we had was fantastic in deep snow. It would make good progress even bottomed out.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 06:13 AM

There are conflicting requirements in different circumstances.

Rock climbing and similar - approach and departure angles, ramp breakover angle, clearance under diffs (maybe even portal axles) and axle articulation and diff locking are the main parameters. Side slope stability can also be important. The Series 1 Land Rover could get to 44 degrees before tipping.   Unimogs are laterally unstable.

Deep deep runny mud - the strange US style "super swampers" - more like paddle boats than cars. Unimogs good (although too heavy), two coupled with a push-pull pole better still.

Deep stiff-ish mud and some types of snow - light footprint to stay on top if possible. Look at "Falklands specials" - land rovers with portal axles and small tractor tyres. Unimogs good up to about 4 feet deep if it's soft.

Wet grass - light footprint mild tyres - you do not want to dig in. Long wet grass or light shrub, ditto plus ground clearance.

Slippery mud, firm substratum (most common in UK) - narrow aggressive tyres, you want to cut in and grip on the substratum. Mogs also good.


Mogs with breathers are good in canals and ponds too - put them in crawler and swim ashore and wait for them eventually to climb out on their own"

Haflingers will do almost anything except climb out of water - the rear engine drowns. But they are tiny by UK standards and might get trodden on by mistake in the USA!

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Max Johnson
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 02:01 PM

When they market a Railroad Tycoon 2 jeep, I'll sit up and listen. Until then... meh.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 05:08 PM

Richard Bridge is the first to understand why someone would want a vehicle such as the Jeep Rubicon, capable of (as I posted) over 40 degrees app and dep; comparable to the 44 degrees for the old Land Rover Series 1, which is a rarity in N. Am., a type not available in Canada for years (appearance similar to the Jeep Rubicon).
(some great photos in Google; land rover series 1.
A series 1 is 50 or so years old now, but some careful owners still use them.

I would not want either vehicle at my stage in life, but a son who loves trails like the Rubicon in California and similar ones in the southwest would be a customer. Also useful in the Foothills ranches here in Alberta.

I am quite happy with my 1995 Jeep Cherokee, which should give me another ten years or so service.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 05:13 PM

To be pedantic, Series 1 is 44 degrees side slope stability.

A hybrid based on the LR90 chassis, called the Foers Triton boasts 90 degrees app and dep - but I'm not sure I really see the point for dep as on dep it would just roll on its back. For approach it's handy - drive it off a small cliff and keep the throttle on and the front wheels pull you upright and stop you somersaulting.

Subject: RE: BS: Would you pay extra?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 06:48 PM

I saw a Chevy 4X4 truck stand almost vertical on it's front bumper and fall back on it's wheels once... from inside the cab. Never spilled my beer.