BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)

Subject: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 09:53 PM

On Facebook I came across the video of the Democratic Senator of Hawaii "taking action into his own hands", in order to teach the homeless not to take merchants' shopping carts for their own use. I gather he thinks the carts are unsightly for tourists as well as wrong for taking them from their legal owners.

With a sledge hammer he walks around town and demolishes the carts- 30 of them so far. (Six carts he has returned to merchants.) As yet, he has not wrested a cart away from a homeless person, but that, they say, may be next.

An advocate for the homeless says that when he is doing is demonstrating that it is OK to perpetrate violence against the vulnerable.

Question: In his quest to teach people not to steal, is he not destroying property not his own?

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 12:48 AM

Well, of course a rich man destroying property is worse than a poor person appropriating property for his own use.
And on top of that, the good state senator is making an ass of himself. But look! He's gone straight!
http://www.politico.com//story/2013/11/hawaii-tom-brower-homeless-shopping-cart-sledgehammer-100154.html

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 01:10 AM

Those carts cost from about USD 75.00 and up.

If he wants to combat homelessness, one place to start is with better mental health care, better social care, and education both the homeless how to break out of the cycle and the homed how to help. Start caring about others.

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 05:34 AM

Well said, Rapparee. Nobody surely actually wants to be homeless, so the fact that they are is probably not their fault at all. If this gentleman purports to be protecting shopkeepers' property, I can't see how destroying the trolleys is doing any good to anyone. It looks like a flamboyant publicity stunt to me. Where is compassion and practical help? I've seen terrible poverty and homelessness in W Africa, but at least there, the resources for aid are very scarce if not non-existent. In the affluent West, we should surely have a few quid to spend on getting these poor souls off the cold streets and into shelter and treatment. It's like Charles Dickens all over again!

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 07:28 AM

Ditto, except it is worse than Dickens' time because we should know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 07:37 AM

This rich bastard purports to be a Democrat?

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 10:18 AM

With a sledge hammer he walks around town and demolishes the carts- 30 of them so far.

Why isn't this asshole in jail?

HAWAII STATUTES AND CODES
§708- Criminal property damage


Section 708-821, criminal property damage in the second degree, covers damage aggravated by three factors: intentional behavior on the part of the actor, and either a potential of widespread damage or a high value of the property. - See more at:

http://statutes.laws.com/hawaii/volume-14/title-37/chapter-708

http://statutes.laws.com/hawaii/volume-14/title-37/chapter-708/hrs-0708-0821-htm

And yes, Virginia, unfortunately not all assholes are TeaPublicans.

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 11:20 AM

The first 'anonymous' Guest above was me. I did put my name in the box, but it must have got lost somehow!

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 12:31 AM

"Methods of Combatting Homelessness"

First of all, have compassion!
Just take one or more in. Have him or her help for lodging and food. being careful not to let them take advantage of you, encourage them to get back on their feet again.
You don't need a government program or 'so-called' ideology to do what is right.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 01:10 AM

That's pretty much what I said earlier, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 01:13 AM

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/30/us-usa-bishop-utah-idUSBRE9AT00O20131130

This was also on Fox, USA Today, NBC and other places. I used Reuters to eliminate any bias in the readers.

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,.
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 01:29 AM

That is NOT what you said Repartee.

Love is action. It occurs on a personal level.

Based on "G.f.S" and myself there are two less homeless in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: jacqui.c
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 08:13 AM

I run a needlecraft group at a local women's homeless shelter and, while there are some there - homeless because they lost jobs and so their homes - who would probably benefit from GFS's way of dealing with the problem, there are a lot of women at this shelter who have mental health and/or addiction problems. No way would it be a good idea to try taking them into your home, either for you or for them. They need specialised help to try and get them to a place where they can do for themselves and some of them will always need sheltered accommodation because they are too fragile to cope in the outside world. 'Care in the community' was one of the worst ideas for these people.

This guy in Hawaii should maybe spend a few days living in a homeless shelter, talk to the people there and maybe get to understand that, in a lot of these cases 'there but for the grace.....'.

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 12:10 PM

I'd think you'd use discretion as to whom you'd wish to allow in your home. The topic is "Methods of Combatting Homelessness", not mental illnesses and addictions, though it wouldn't be a far stretch to think that after losing your home, you would be the most happiest and cheerfully stable person on the planet!
Ideologies are just fine for 'being concerned' at arms distance. REAL solutions are brought about by those who are willing to lay aside their snootiness, theoretical opinions, fears and roll up their sleeves!

Find yourself.....then find someone to help.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 10:25 PM

I have my doubts about this story. For one thing, in my experience, politicians write, support, or oppose legislation. Other than that,they don't do much besidesjust showing up for pictures. For another, the street people with shopping carts tend to stick pretty close to them, and seem like they could get pretty unpleasant if someone tried to smash theirs up. I doubt that a politician could get a shopping cart away from even one one street person without being soundly trounced, let alone 30 of them.

And then there's the idea of smashing a shopping cart up with a sledge hammer in the first place. They're made of steel rods and tubing, and if you hit one with a car, usually the car gets the worst of it. If you hit it with a sledge hammer, you might make a dent at the point of impact, but there's just as good a chance that you wouldn't and that the hammer would bounce back and hit you. Also, being a cart, it might just roll away. What ever happened would be funny to watch, anyway.

So I am thinking that the legislator probably sent an intern out who gathered up a few stray shopping carts and took them back to their respective stores or some such thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 09:21 AM

And your actual evidence for any or all of those suppositions is what, exactly, Stim?

You're not thinking, you're postulating.

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 03:09 PM

Well, GregF, it was a wry comment based on my experiences with politicians, the homeless, and shopping carts;-)

Let me put it this way: given the almost universally acknowledged tendency of politicians toward making things up, how likely are you to believe one who claims to have just gone out with a sledge hammer and smashed up 30 shopping carts?

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 05:25 PM

given the almost universally acknowledged tendency of politicians toward making things up

As opposed to the same universal propensity in businesspersons, corporate execs, yellow journalists, "Christian"[sic] & other fundagelicals, climate change deniers, sports figures and virtually every grouping of hunmans one can name?

Oh, Please.

In addition, unless the several wire services are also making things up, The incidents have been documented.

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 09:06 PM

Are they all smashing shopping carts too?

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 10:44 AM

Hey Greg, What are you doing to help the homeless? Bashing shopping cart bashers? I'm sure that the homeless really appreciate that!...and what's more, you even got to throw some 'so-called liberal' names at them, too!!! WHIPPEEE! Greg's a liberal!!!

On behalf of a homeless person....I thank you!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 11:18 AM

There's talk here in UK of new laws forbidding begging on the streets, probably in the light of the expected influx of Bulgarian and Romanian migrants in the New Year. It's all very well 'forbidding' people to be needy and in dire straits, and smashing up their trolleys containing their few pathetic belongings, but will this help them to find a home and some food while they look for work or get medical aid? It appears politicians just don't want to see these folk, and wish they'd go away and be poor somewhere else. It isn't a civilised or compassionate society which treats its unfortunates like (or worse than) dogs. I have a great admiration for the Salvation Army, who try to help in practical hands-on ways. No doubt the anti-religious brigade will fire up in condemnation of that organisation, but no-one can deny they do an enormous amount towards helping the most desperate and derelict of our society. I donate what I can, and pray. I'm a bit too old to go out there and help personally.

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 12:09 PM

Thank you, Stim. It is true that when you get right down to it, the whole story stinks of fish.

Let's bear in mind that the bastard could have selected defenseless plastic shopping carts to attack, but nonetheless the handles, axles, etc, would be awfully hard to smash.

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 12:18 PM

The UK approach to combating homeless is to make people homeless so other homeless people have somewhere to live, oh and probably changing the way statistics are recorded so that homeless people are not really homeless people.

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 02:12 PM

The news clip from Hawaiian TV shows the Distinguished Gentleman whacking at the wheels of a plastic cart marked with the logo of "Don Quijote" which is a Walmart type chain, which he claims is to disable it for use by the "homeless". There is nothing about the cart to indicate that is was used for anything other than toting merchandise, however, and in the commentary, the newscasters say that he has never actually taken a cart from a "homeless" person.

Basically, the duly elected public official vandalized a shopping cart that he could have just as easily returned to it's rightful owners and put it all off on the "homeless".

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 02:32 PM

Incidentally, I put "homeless" in quotes because a lot of the people that look like they are homeless are not, and a lot of people are homeless and you'd never know it.

As an example: I know a guy with perfect hair, an expensive suit, and a messenger bag full of documents related to his web-based start-up. You can talk to him for quite a while without realizing his situation. The suit is from Goodwill, and he keeps shampoo, conditioner, and a blow dryer in the messenger bag. He manages his "start-up" on the computers at the library, and he is far from alone.

There but for fortune...

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: gnu
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 04:03 PM

I am with Rap and others. As for this ijit smashing carts, the only good I see in it is that it MAY get people talking and there MAY be some actions as suggested above.

Last month, I read an article which said, wait for it, a study/statistics indicate(s) 49.8M Yanks live at or below the poverty line. That's about 1 in 7. That is sickening... twisted and vile to the Nth degree.

Thread drift... in my city, as I was told by a Sobeys store manager, people steal grocery carts to sell them for metal salvage. I wondered why the RCMP were not on top of it at the salvage companies. Didn't take me long to figure out why. They need the money and Sobeys is a massive $$$ making machine so maybe it's in Sobeys' best interests to stay mum. They do seem to care about charity in various ways so it's not a hard leap for me.

BTW, "my" Sobeys has two autistic lads (at present, one of them is my niece's son) that work two hours a day, M-F, returning items left at checkouts under the supervision of a trained autism, ah, care person (?). I can see myself doing this in the future, when time permits.

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 05:40 PM

One of 'my' prisoners I visited during his sentence told me he used to get an old filthy sleeping bag and lie in a shop doorway begging as a homeless person. He made quite a bit of money, and actually lived in a flat or 'den' with some other scamps. The cash was handy to buy a wrap of heroin. But he later found burglary to be more remunerative, which is how he ended up in jail. We can't know if a person on the streets is truly homeless, but IMO we should treat them all with kindness and help if poss. Shopping trolleys are very strong and I wouldn't think easy to damage with a hammer!

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 11:15 PM

I think that everyone should be treated with kindness, but I don't think that supporting a drug or alcohol habit is very kind. If people need help, I know where to send them to get almost anything they need, all the way from food and medical care to a computer and even a car. The ones who ask for money for food tend to refuse the food if you offer it, though...

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: Janie
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 01:59 AM

The conditions that lead to or result in homelessness are multidetermined, as are all things related to the conditions of existence. There are policies, and contrary to GfS's comments above, ideologies that tend to increase or decrease the societal factors that figure into homelessness. There is no "one size fits all" solution.

There is solid research and solidly researched or documented programs and policies that have existed over time, or have been ended for a sufficient length of time to provide meaningful statistical data about what works better, worse, or has no impact at all on reducing homelessness in terms of public policies and programs.

Largely because of ideologies, we will as a society probably continue to ignore any data that does not support our particular ideology, and fully embrace as the "gospel truth" any of the data that supports our particular ideology.


As a society that holds values that dictate we are personally responsible and also socially responsible for ourselves and others, anecdotes are powerful in terms of shaping our personal opinions and biases. Personal experience is a basis on which to examine and perhaps challenge our automatic or culturally held beliefs. But they are still anecdotes.

Out in left field post? Mebbe.

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 03:23 AM

Ideologies?...They come and go..today's 'liberal' is tomorrow's 'conservative'.

Compassion comes from within, and in touch with out.

It's a property of the unit.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 02:09 AM

Reread Janie's comment, GfS, and keep re-reading it till you understand it. It takes some thought, because it is a rather deep observation on the way that our personal and cultural ideas get in the way of solving problems--I tried to rephase it, but I couldn't do it justice, so you'll have to work it out yourself;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 10:11 AM

I dug it the first time...and second.
I'm not contradicting what Janie posted..Bottom line, if it gets laid on your heart to lend a hand, do it...and if you don't (or can't), at least you'll understand why others won't help you!
There is NO political solution to replace the personal responsibility of being compassionate...and never will be. However, 'political solutions' are convenient excuses to ignore being personally compassionate!

Just take a look around.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Dec 13 - 03:49 AM

Gosh!..That last one was worth looking at again........

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: mg
Date: 06 Dec 13 - 07:01 PM

I think the first thing is to get everyone off the streets and then work on getting better accomodations for most of them.

I think it is important to sort them out if you have sufficient numbers, as any large city would have.

Main needs are to be safe, dry, warm, clean. Plumbing is very important for bathroom and laundry facilities. Food can be brought in, or TV dinners etc. so a kitchen is not so important right at first.

Sorting categories: single male, single female, family groups.

Further sorting: contagious disease, those who prey upon the weak, ordinary people who fell on hard times, substance abusers, mental illness, amenity to clean clothes and body.

Easiest group: ordinary people who fell on hard times. Can be combined if necessary with those with functional mental illness. Also should be fairly clean and disease free. They basically need shelter, showers, washing machines, some security provided, whatever social resources can be provided. Low priority for permanent housing if resources are limited. THey also should be told in exchange for a bed etc. they are expected to work a couple of hours cleaning, sorting clothes, whatever.

Contagious disease: need infirmary type conditions with nursing supervision and some security.

Mental illness: range of problems...some can go with ordinary group, some with violent group if they are violent. Some can possibly go with substance abusers. Need high security and as many resources as possible. Need permanent housing ASAP.   

Violent group: Need extremely high security, plus whastever resources can be allocated for counseling, medication etc. Hard group to house and I don't have suggestions.

Substance abusers: If non-violent (violent ones weeded out) need high security, what resources can be spared, treatment if possible. Certainly on call AA etc.

So say 30 apartment units come up..who should get them? Assume some security and some supervision. Definitely not the ordinary group..they can stay put for a while, although they are probably going to be the best tenants etc.

Probably not the substance abuse group at this time. I am thinking perhaps the ones with some degree of mental illness, not violent, not contangeous, amenable to clean clothes etc. But I am not sure.

People with children should get the first units of course.

If you jumble everyone together, you have to provide high security for everyone, say 10,000 people instead of 1,000 people. Others could get by with less security. You have people screaming and throwing up if they are alcoholic or mentally ill.

I think this is the way to allocate scarce resources...many people, such as myself if I got homeless, do not need police supervision, high security etc. I would need a cot in an old warehouse and a shower. I would need to know I was safe from predation and that I could sleep all night and into the day (not be forced out in the morning..that is crazy). Sort of like Sunnycamp without the nice music.

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Dec 13 - 09:32 AM

mg, this is a very organised and sensible approach. The only problem is that, in UK at least, there aren't enough housing units for anyone, not the homeless, displaced families, people in crisis, women with children etc etc. The housing lists are absolutely endless, with waiting times of years. And for the homeless with substance abuse problems, there just aren't the resources for detox, counselling, medical monitoring etc. The NHS is at more than full-stretch already. Violent/dangerous homeless folk and the mentally ill often end up in prison, which is quite inappropriate for their needs. I've seen this with my own eyes while Prison Visiting. On top of all this, our society unfortunately blames the homeless for their own predicament, and sees no reason to provide any kind of support, care or intervention at all. All this is very short-sighted, as by alleviating the homelessness issue, one would save tons of money in the long run. It costs about £40,000 per year to keep an inmate in prison for example. It's only the charities which pick up the pieces, and the good-hearted volunteers, God bless them, who exert themselves to offer a helping hand. But their resources too are very stretched.

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Dec 13 - 11:12 AM

One at a time, the best you can do....and spread the word.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 02:34 AM

You think like I do, mg--and my eldest daughter, too, who, at age 7 noted that not only were there a lot of homeless people(we lived in Philadelphia at the time), there were also a lot of abandoned homes, and wanted to fix up the homes and move the homeless in, and problem solved.

The first hurdle is "the first thing is to get everyone off the streets"--neither you, nor I, nor anyone has the authority to gather up and sort the homeless and put them anywhere. And they tend not to go voluntarily, because even homeless people don't want to stay in a facility for homeless people.

The second hurdle is the cost-putting people in those"hundred cots in a warehouse" shelter actually costs a lot-In Washington DC the cost of putting a family in a shelter for a month is between $2500-3700!

Also, since a lot of the homeless are mothers with children, the tendency is to discreetly scatter them about in hotels and motels, where they are much safer, and, oddly, that is cheaper than the shelters. I just shake my head.

And even if we manage to get them off the streets, what then? Just being inside doesn't solve their problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: Thompson
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 08:07 AM

Equality is the best way to combat homelessness.

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 06:25 PM

I'm not sure what that means, Thompson. I'd be glad to hear A)What you mean by equality B)How it would help homelessness and C) How you'd achieve it. Inquiring minds, as they say...

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 06:30 PM

I'm not sure about that, Thompson. For example, some people who are at an advanced stage of alcoholism lose their jobs, relationships and then their homes because their lives are impossibly chaotic. They may have been quite well-off, even well-educated, originally. Also, some young people are at loggerheads with their parent/s and leave their home to follow a path to London, the 'bright lights' and end up sleeping rough and very vulnerable to prostitution (male or female) and drug dependence. Others may be illegal immigrants, or mentally ill with no family to monitor them. All these cases are not really a result of inequality but of lives which have run off the rails for a number of complex reasons. I visited a schizophrenic young woman in a mental hospital who had slept rough for months, confused and terrified. Her (alcoholic) mother wasn't interested, but lived with a multi-millionaire. The lassie had finally been referred by social services to be assessed by a psychiatrist. Her case was very complicated, but not particularly due to inequality.

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 01:51 AM

Well said, Eliza.

Subject: RE: BS: Methods of Combatting Homelessness (!)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 02:23 AM

Agree with Eliza and Stim

The 'new trendy buzz word' is the 'equality' rap. Well you know what? We were born 'equal'...it's not a government handout! What you do with 'equal' is either excel with it, or bullshit it away, and expect others to pick up YOUR slack! Maybe if the government got out of the way, and stop with the policies that make it more difficult to pay for their whims of corruption, there might be enough to go around.

Till then, find compassion to help those who you can.

GfS