BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman

Subject: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 07:03 PM

Hey, maybe I'm just a tad sensitive to the PR work that is going into the seeling of an attack on Iraq, but today I heard Secretary of Sate, Colin Powell, on C-SPAN radio and have a feeling that Bush has just shifted gears and is going to step back and let Powell "close the deal".

Yeah, as I was listening tom Powell all I could think was that Bush's PR folk were getting a tad worried that Bush was coming off as the spoiled brat war monger that he is and figured with the numbers not looking too good in the polls that maybe they would bring in a relief pitcher.

Anyone else see it this way?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 07:24 PM

As they say on the "doctor" shows...

"I concur."

Powell has more credibility than GW, so of course they are gonna use that to the hilt. I wonder how Colin Powell sleeps at night? Like a baby, no doubt...but not like an Iraqui baby.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 07:55 PM

Absolutely. It's been about 4 days, I think.   I continually am amazed at how obtuse 'they' think 'we' really are...

I must say that I've lost respect for the man. Surely he knows that he is being used? My guess is that he'll be sent down the road as soon as they're done with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 08:06 PM

I understand that a key time in Powell's career building was when he had the job of organising a cover-up for the massacre at My Lai. He knows about falling in line within the chain of command. Hard Cop Soft Cop is just a technique after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: The Pooka
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 08:46 PM

Bobe, was the 5th word in your phrase "...as I was listening tom Powell..." a typo? Or, not? / And speakin' of aunt jemimae, I heard Condoleeza Rice coyly avoid saying "No" when asked on Meet the Press whether she might run for VP if Dick (so to speak) croaks uh that is to say, steps aside. How'd you fellers like *that*? Haw.

But no, I don't think Gen. Powell is being left holding the Bag, dad. You watch: the Shrub will step up to the plate like a man & speak directly for Cheney, Wolfowitz & Rove (WARS IS US), in the State of the Onion tomorrow night.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 09:05 PM

Ahhh, the "tom" was a typo.... Though maybe one of them Freudian typos...

Yeah, Junior will do a little rantin' tomorrow night but Iz sniffin a shift in strategy here with Powell closing the deal...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 11:19 PM

Yoi, Pooker-man!! Where the hell have ya been? DON'T tell me your cybering somewhere else -- my heart couldn't take the shock! But, as they do say, Shock Ooona sound good, no? Good name for a band!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 12:47 AM

Bobert, ole buddy, when I saw the title of this thread I knew you started it. You're all hung up on PR aren't you?

Why not wait and see what the prez has to say tomorrow night before attacking. Maybe he's gonna invite you to Camp David or something to advise him on what he should do! You can pitch your PR ideas to him!

Hold on to your hats though, my friends, Saddam's days are numbered.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 08:08 AM

Now that's real helpful, Dougie. First ya tell me not to be critical of President God himself (or so he thinks) then you say the Saddam's day's are numbered. Make up you mind. One day, when I'm ranting about Junior Hell-bent-ation (not a real word, yet) you telll me to calm down because there probably won't be this invasion and the next day it's back to the "day's a re numbered". What, do you really think Mr. God is just going to scare Saddam to death with his insessant temper tantrums? Or what?

Nah, Amos, I just haven't been around. Been down in Richmond sniffin' the real estate market in case Johnny Ashcroft gets me deported from Wes Ginny. Ya gotta have aa escape plan in place....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Willie-O
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 08:33 AM

You can get deported from Wes Ginny?

Oh...right...you probably maligned coal's environmental friendliness...

If they do send you to Old Virginny, try not to insult tobacco...

Bobert I think you're takin' the long way to Canada...better come on up before we close the border to the Murrican refugee hordes.

That's the first I heard of a My Lai connection, but Powell ain't no shrinking violet...he had everything to do with something called "Operation Just Cause" which resulted in some thousands of dead Panamanians.

The scariest thing about the Shrub admin is that Powell probably actually, really is the most moderate, rational member of it.   

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Richie
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 11:39 AM

I consider Colin Powell to be a man of integrity and a moderate. I think he knows Saddam is not cooperating and is trying to make it clear of the US resolve on Saddam's refusal to comply. Saddam could prevented this but he has chosen to disregard the NATO sanctions.

When Saddam attacked Kuwait he killed inncocent people. He is a murderer. I do not support Saddam Hussein.

Who's to blame- Saddam Hussein.

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 12:46 PM

Doug - All our days are numbered. As for Saddam, he's a minor player. I don't spend a lot of time worrying about the neighborhood hub cap thief when Al Capone and Lucky Luciano are the mayor and the commissioner of public works in my town.

I hear that Norman Schwarzkopt has just stated that he has seen no evidence whatsoever justifying an invasion of Iraq. Well, well! Old Norm's got more guts and honesty than I would have suspected.

Think Poland, Doug. Poland in 1939. Not only were they guilty of horrendous atrocities (according to Goebbels and Hitler), not only were they scheming to attack Germany, not only were they horrifically undemocratic and corrupt...BUT...they attacked a German radio station in the dark of night, attempting to kill German nationals. Oh! Those filthy swine. It was only appropriate that the glorious Wermacht strike the final blow and bring down that rotten dictatorial Polish regime before it could do any more harm. Why, it was a favour to the suffering Polish population when the panzers rolled in and freed them!

Ah, yes. Lies, lies, glorious lies.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 04:18 PM

who was it said "Extremism in the defense of virtue is no vice"?

oh, yeah...some guy named Goldwater. Looks like he got his message across...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 01:38 PM

Actually, he said:

"Moderation in the cause of justice is no virtue. Extremism in the cause of liberty is no vice."

He was wrong on both counts. Moderation is a virtue and extremism is a vice. As for liberty...one might ask: liberty for WHOM? When that question is clearly and accurately answered, then we know exactly where we stand. It takes two sides to make a fight, and they are both deeply concerned about their own liberty to do what they want...at the expense of their opponent's liberty to do what he wants.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 12:50 PM

And while we're at it, lets trash the Geneva Convention!
HERE

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 01:31 PM

Thanks for the link, Greg...

It's something that we all know is going to happen. First of all, when one considers the baselessness of Bush's motivations other than political and oil, it's not hard to see that a man who is so filled with immorality is blind to his own wrongness.

Yes, I expect massive civilian casualties and am deeply saddened by the thought of innocent people being murdered so that the Bushs, Chanenys and Rumsfields of the world can get what amounts to nothing more than a good case of the jollies.

Well, not in my name, thank you.

And as for the Geneva Convention, Bush does not recognize international law. He is very much an outlaw of the world community.

And he calls himself a Christain? Christains don't act like this. Period.

Resist this insanity...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: DougR
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 01:40 PM

Thank goodness, Bobert, you and yours are only in the 28% that do not approve of the way Bush is handling the Iraqi situation (taking in account of course that you put no credence in polls ...especially those that do no agree with your POV).

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 09:24 AM

The thing I love about Little Hawk's analogies is that they are so selective.

Let's take the first one, he mentions Al Capone - LH have a good look at the man's CV (Figuratively speaking, he was once the neighbourhood hubcap thief that people in his line of work didn't bother worrying about - he ended up as America's most notorious ganster, having eliminated most of those rivals who had considered him not worth bothering with) - Large Oaks from small acorns grow.

And the second one. Yes by all means lets take a look at Poland in 1939 LH. Lets take a look at what Hitler actually wanted to achieve, match that to the prevailing conditions in Europe at that time and what options were open to Nazi Germany.

1) What he wanted to do was to renunited East Prussia with his greater Germany. In effect recover the territory ceded to the newly formed state of Poland at the end of the First World War. He couldn't have given a toss about the rest of Poland, that was something circumstance forced on him.

2) Having written his book, both the Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia knew that ultimately they would end up fighting one another. Germany's greatest fear was having to fight a war on two fronts. Hitler had tried to goad France and Britain into a war in 1938 when he annexed the Sudatenland. Hitlers planners gave him two key dates for war, 1938 and 1944, fight in the West in 1938 and you will win, fight Russia later than 1944 and you will lose. Having not got his war in 1938, he had to cover himself against attack from the East should Britain and France stand by their promise to Poland.

3) Any move against the Danzig corridor would be viewed as an attack on Poland. This results in a war with Britain and France. An attack on Poland could be viewed by Soviet Russia as a precursor for an invasion of Russia. Therefore Russia had to be kept sweet. The solution was the Non-Aggression Pact with Soviet Russia. They cooked the deal up so that each could grab one half of Poland thereby creating a buffer zone between their respective countries.

Did he have to tell lies to sell it to the German people - No, they were, on the face of it, totally behind him. By this stage the Nazi's were in total control and open opposition to the regime would have been ineffectual as well as suicidal for those participating.

Did he have to sow lies about Polish aggression to stave off reaction and create some degree of doubt with the appeasement factions in Britain and France - Yes, because the Russians might not have stopped as agreed.

After all Britain and France had sat back and done nothing (much along the lines of what you and others advocate on this forum wrt Iraq) for six years - he came damn close to pulling it off. Had he been fronted in 1936, or earlier, had his rearmament programme been challenged - he would have been stopped in his tracks. Unfortunately, the memory of the Great War, and its cost, was too vivid in everyones mind and a tin-pot Dictator was allowed to set the world ablaze.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Jim Krause
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:08 AM

The above is a rather short sighted view of history. Teribus has taken World War II out of context of the larger picture of European history, and examined it as a separate and distincly independent anomaly. It is not.
    World War II is a direct and logical outcome of the First World War. As an aside, I'm wondering why historians haven't called that whole period of the Twentieth Century "The World War." One cannot study history in such a detached, disjointed, and disconnected manner and hope to learn any lessons. It is all cause and effect. If you wish to understand the roots of the Second World War, study the causes of the First World War. I recommend Neil Fergusson's "The Pity of War." (I hope I spelled his name correctly.)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:35 AM

Dougie:

What is it that fascinates you about polls. I had a real interesting stats teacher in college, Dr. Snellings, who was of the opinion that statistics and polls could be squewed to prove anything that anyone wanted to prove or disprove. They are totally meaningless. If you were to allow me and someone like Dr Snellings to construct the questions and set up the structure of how they would be presented, I could get you a 90% disapproval rate on Bush's handling of Iraq...

If you were find a pollster who would be honest with you, you'd find that this is indeed the nature of the beast. That is why you won't find me quoting polls.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: DougR
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:13 PM

Bobert old buddy, I know that polls can be skewed. Polls that are skewed, however, are not honest polls. I do not believe that ALL polls are skewed by manipulative pollsters. If polls were not effective, I do not believe that they would be so widely used in marketing products and services.

It has been said (by former members of his administration) that the Clinton administration didn't make a move without first polling for results.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:19 PM

DougR, Time magazine says that the Bush administration conducts more polls than the Clinton one did.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:23 PM

Well, Dougie, if that were a fact, Clinton would have been a lot more successful with his legislative agenda. Remember "Don't Ask, Don't Tell". This was definately not poll driven. Or the National Health Care Plan? Not poll driven.

No, what Clinton did was spent a lot of time with folks on the other side of the isle and negotaited, negotiated and negotiated. That's exactly what he did.

And how does one go about recognizing the "honest" polls, Dougie. They're ain't not rating for them like movies. I think a 1 to 10 rating would be nice with 1 representing most of the polls that you site, you know the one's that no one other that a few knotheads such as yourself believe... and 10 standing for those polls which the rest of the world believe... Awww, jus' funnin with ya...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:30 PM

This one's for you, Richie...

Center for Cooperative Research

(Others may want to read it, however.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Peg
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:49 PM

I read a few weeks back that Colin Powell has already said he will resign at the end of Bush;s current term in office; that is to say, even if Bush wins a second term, he would not serve as Secratary of State.

I find it disturbing that Mr. Powell has appeared completely useless and silent on the Iraq issue for months when someone in his position should be very closely involved in this process. Is it because he wouldn't tow the party line? Was he a dove among hawks who is now just carrying out orders? Hard to imagine former SOS's acting this way (Kissinger for example, or Albright).

I did have a lotof respect for the guy before. I'm not so sure now. I know I feel sorry for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:56 PM

Well, if he quits, his son Michael, who is the head man of the FCC, will get the axe, too.

But I wish it were as simple as that. I think Powell has just spent too much time in the PR part of it and through repetition of Bush's lies is starting to believe them. Stranger things have happened.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: DougR
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:36 PM

If the information you posted about Colin Powell is correct, Peg, there would be headlines in every major newspaper in the country several inches high. Every cable news network would report it as well at the networks. So unless you have a very close informant to the Powell camp, I sincerely doubt it is true.

To lose confidence in Powell simply because you do not agree with his recent actions indicates to me, at least, that you didn't have much in him for the get-go. If he objected to the administration's policies in regard to Iraq or anywhere else, it would be easy enough for him to resign now. He wouldn't have to wait until the end of GWB's term in office.

The information I heard about Clinton's use of polls came from his umber one pollster at the time Bobbert. He reported on the Fox News Network that Clinton did nothing without first consulting the polls or focus groups.

Ebbie: I don't doubt that the Bush administration uses polls. Time Magazine's reporting doesn't hold a lot of credibilty with me though.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Frankham
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:32 PM

It's interesting to note according to NPR that NATO is not on the same page regarding how to deal with Saddam. France, Germany, China, Russia are opposed to Bush's war.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Peg
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 10:06 AM

Doug: My monitor doesn't have headlines several inches high, but here is just ONE example of articles that appeared discussing this:

Speculation that Powell may quit caps bad week for Bush cabinet
By Toby Harnden in Washington
(Filed: 15/06/2002)

Colin Powell, the US secretary of state, is becoming so frustrated at being undermined by the White House that he may stand down after the mid-term elections, according to some American diplomats.
The damaging speculation sweeping Gen Powell's Foggy Bottom headquarters has been dismissed as unfounded by senior State Department sources, but it caps a very bad week for President George W Bush's cabinet.
 
Gen Powell could become a powerful focus of discontent outside the Bush cabinet
John Ashcroft, the attorney-general, was reprimanded for his announcement of the arrest of an alleged "dirty bomber". Donald Rumsfeld, the secretary of defence, was forced to make an embarrassing retreat over claims of al-Qa'eda activity in Kashmir.
But the biggest problem has been the simmering internal dispute over Middle East policy, which burst into the open when Gen Powell contradicted Mr Bush and Ari Fleischer, the White House spokesman, appeared dismissive of the secretary of state.
Gen Powell, who led US forces to victory in the Gulf war, is a towering figure in American politics. His domestic approval ratings top even those of Mr Bush.
The Foreign Office and continental diplomats view him as the "moderate" and pragmatic face of a unilateralist Bush administration. "It's fair to say that Powell is the one we can do business with," said one British official.
His premature departure would be seen as disastrous by the White House, not least because he could become a powerful focus of discontent if he were outside the administration.
The tensions between Gen Powell and senior figures such as Mr Rumsfeld have been exacerbated by the White House contradicting the State Department on key foreign policy issues.
Officials at the Pentagon privately accuse Gen Powell of a tendency to "freelance" and consider himself the most important figure in the administration.
The trouble began on Monday when Mr Bush gave unequivocal backing to Ariel Sharon, the Israeli prime minister, and appeared to rubbish Gen Powell's proposed ministerial conference on the Middle East.
"It totally undercut what we were trying to do and was very damaging," said a State Department source. "We have spent the rest of the week trying to reassure Arab nations that the president was misinterpreted." There was also considerable State Department anger directed towards Mr Fleischer.
On Wednesday, Mr Fleischer answered a question about whether Mr Bush supported Gen Powell's stance on a provisional Palestinian state by saying the president was "listening to a variety of people who have some thoughts to share".
He added: "The secretary [Mr Powell] from time to time will reflect on the advice that he gets, and do so publicly. Which is his prerogative, of course."
Mr Bush is expected to announce next week that he is in favour of establishing a timetable for an interim Palestinian state. But a titanic battle is going on within the administration, with Mr Rumsfeld's allies saying Mr Sharon should be given a free hand.
This appears to be Mr Bush's instinct but, as a president with limited foreign policy experience, he can tend to be pushed one way and then the other by competing advisers.
Mr Rumsfeld, who is described by his enemies within the administration as abrasive and arrogant, has annoyed the State Department with his "Rummygrams" - notes that question Gen Powell's policies or offer unsolicited advice.
One recent note from Mr Rumsfeld cited a newspaper article suggesting that Gen Powell's officials favoured lifting sanctions against Libya. "Is this true?" he asked.
The Pentagon chief has been overhead correcting Mr Powell's pronunciation of Kabul - the stress should be on the second syllable, he insisted - and poking fun at him for describing Afghans as "Afghanis".
Officials dismiss this as nothing more than jocular banter and it is true that there seems to be no personal animus between the two men. But this means that the dispute is ideological - which could be more damaging to the Bush administration in the long term.
Since September 11, Mr Bush has tended to tilt towards conservative hawks such as Mr Rumsfeld on important issues such as withdrawing from the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty and targeting Iraq.
"He is intensely loyal to the president but there may well come a point when Gen Powell will wonder whether it is worth being secretary of state if he cannot shape American foreign policy," said the State Department official.
"After all, he can earn millions of dollars a year on the lecture circuit and still spend three times as much time with his wife."

and another link to a follow-up:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/07/07/wcolin07.xml


This story is now being referred to as being fuelled by "rumor." But so are a great many stories which arise from the West Wing, many of which are true but get swept under the rug. Hard to say what is true. But at least this proves your snotty remark about me having close ties to the Powell camp was kind of a dumb thing to say...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: DougR
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 11:37 AM

Peg: the subtitle to the article says it all! The key word is "speculation." Anyone can do that. In my opinion your speculation of the same would be just as valid as some journalist.

The date on the article would indicate that you are quoting from a publication in London perhaps. Is so? The British press has not been particularly kindly to the Bush administration so it would not be surprising to find such speculation in one of their newspapers.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Peg
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 10:18 PM

Doug it appeared in a bunch of newspapers! That's my point! You can use the same search engine I did. This was just the top story that came up. But the first time I saw it several months ago was in an American newspaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Calls in his War Salesman
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 10:30 PM

Peg and Doug:

This is an old article. This predates Powell's "indoctrination". He now is goose-stepping behind Bush. He has fallen prey to the constant drone of PR, Big Lies, PR, Big Lies, PR, Big Lies...

Waht ever respect I ever had for him, which was little, has now evaporated to a big echo. He's nothing more tha a pitch man for a mad man.

Bobert