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BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues...
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Subject: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Oct 03 - 12:33 PM You may recall the moldy futon. I threw it out. Next problem: there is mold in the carpet. I can't see it, but I can smell it and it's depressing me and sapping my energy insidiously. Now, I would like to remove the carpet, but that's not easy, under the circumstances. Let me explain... The room in question was once a garage. It has a concrete floor upon which someone placed (or possibly glued) the carpet. I have to check and see if it's glued down. Concrete, of course, tends to communicate moisture (in the spring and summer in Ontario), and that's mainly why the carpet got moldy. Now...there is a great deal of furniture in that room. Bookshelves, cabinets, chest of drawers, 'nother storage thingie, small fridge, etc...etc...a lot of heavy stuff! I have nowhere that I can practically move it to in order to get at the damned carpet unless I rent a storage unit or something. My whole life (almost) is inside that room. So, I am trying to figure how to... 1. get at the carpet in the first place 2. remove it 3. treat the floor to remove remaining moldiness? 4. then what? What is the best way to cover a concrete floor? Do I need a vapour barrier of some kind on the concrete? After that, should I cover it with some kind of wooden floor or...? 5. Assuming I get that far, and actually put a new floor of some kind on, then I can move back all the stuff (from who knows where) and start living normally again. Yippee. Any suggestions from those who have dealt with similar problems? - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: wysiwyg Date: 07 Oct 03 - 12:40 PM Um, wouldn't it be simpler to move, if you are going to tackle moving all that STUFF? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Oct 03 - 12:48 PM I have vaguely considered that notion, but I'm also running my business on this property and am financially tied in to the situation in a number of ways that are quite complex and involve family, so I will probably not move. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 07 Oct 03 - 01:02 PM The carpet is going to have to come up, and they have products to disolve the glue used to hold down the pad or backing. People are doing some very nice things with paint on floors these days. I myself have put down tile in the house on the concrete foundation. I hate wall to wall carpet. Every room has at least a throw rugs to deal with the shock from warm bed to cold floor, etc, others have larger persian rugs. Looks great! That mildew can make you sick. It can get into the furniture and appliances and files and will be there forever. You need to move back and forth, do half of the room at a time, sounds like. My mother's bedroom in the house we lived in for years was partly below ground level (built into a hill). It was always damp, and the carpet and closets were always musty. I can still identify things that my mother stored in that room, though she moved out of that house in 1990. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: Bassic Date: 07 Oct 03 - 01:03 PM I was sure sad to hear about that burst pipe you had in your converted garage LH;-) Wasnt it lucky you were insured at the time! It will be SO nice for you to have the opportunity to redecorate, and what fun choosing new carpet and furnture to store all that stuff you rescued when the pipe burst! I recomend you do something to insulate you from the concrete though, maybe a wooden floor laid above the concrete one? It would seem a good time to invest a little of your own money seeing as the insurance company are paying for the storage and redecoration etc. By the way, I was just walking down the street when I noticed this computer that I am using, lying around, logged onto this site, no idea who this Bassic guy is, never seen him before, shouldnt leave things lying around unatended, never know who might come along. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: wysiwyg Date: 07 Oct 03 - 01:05 PM Well, then, I'd tackle a small area first and see what's there, about the glue, in a corner you can get at. See if the concrete was painted, too. Do you rent or own? If renting, maybe the owner would help with expenses, in toto or in part, and via rent reduction or consideration next time rent is renogtiated. Or maybe as a refund now of security deposit. If you really mean to stay for some time, I'd do it right. IMO, that would involve laying new sleepers on top of the concrete, with mildew treatment and mildew-preventing primer, new insulation over top of that with moisture barrier, and then refloor over it with a new plywood subfloor and then watever you want over top. My sister did this in her apartment, with sleepers and thick subflooring, then she painted the plywood and laid area rugs. She did it in two sections, moving half the stuff to the other side, stacking merrily along, to do the first half, and then swapped sides to finish it. PM me if you want her email. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: smallpiper Date: 07 Oct 03 - 01:09 PM You have a problem - if damp is coming in through the concrete then it needs to come up and a new damp course needs to be laid. The only solution is to bite the bullet and get it done or its also going to get into the walls then your talking even more work. And that is without the damage its is doing to your stuff. Looks like a visit to the bank may be inorder. Get it surveyed by a reputable damp specialist before doing anything else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: GUEST,mg Date: 07 Oct 03 - 04:47 PM I would take everything outside, cover with tarps, get rid of anything else I could at the time, and rip up the carpet. I would clean and paint the concrete and put an area rug down for now...I would never, under any circumstances, voluntarily put down wall to wall carpet...it is the filthiest thing in the world and I don't know how people, 99 percent of whom are better housekeepers than I am, can stand it in their houses. Likewise stuffed furniture without slipcovers. Yuck. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Oct 03 - 05:44 PM Evidently some wandering pest has hijacked Bassic's computer. There was never any burst water pipe here. Oh, well...at least it's a reminder that things could indeed be much worse! Yuck. I will first do as Susan suggests, and lift a small piece of carpet to see what's underneath. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Oct 03 - 05:52 PM And yes, I think the old "move everything to one side and do the first half of the room" trick is the one to use here. That way I don't have to move things very far. Given the bad weather that's on the way, I don't think I want to move things outside under a tarp. You will not see me putting down another wall-to-wall carpet. Never again. I can't stand those dirt catchers. smallpiper - there's no significant amount of water coming through the concrete...no visible wetness...it's just that if such a floor is directly covered by something (like a cardboard box or a carpet or a mattress) then a certain amount of moisture gradually comes through in the air, kind of, when the weather is damp. That's all. I don't think it's necessary to do anything drastic with the concrete. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: Bill D Date: 07 Oct 03 - 06:05 PM You 'can' use a carpet knife, or similar gadget to remove the parts of carpet NOT under furniture, and cut down on the mold immediately, while planning at a slower pace what to move where in order to deal with the rest. There is a gadget like a heavy scraper with a long handle, used for tile removal, that could be a BIG help in this job...you can then do a lot of the job standing up and not on your knees. Look at in a good hardware store. In the meantime, Lysol..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: JohnInKansas Date: 07 Oct 03 - 06:08 PM LH - The guy who hijacked Bassic's machine is apparently suggesting what seems to be a standard "repair" sequence(?): 1. Upgrade your insurance. 2. Break a pipe 3. File a claim Problems over, until 4. Go to jail. My approach has always been to rip up what I can get to, leaving what's under the furniture until I get the main mess out. Then you've probably got enough clear floor to move one or two pieces at a time to get to the remnants. Whether you can, or need to, do a whole-floor vapor barrier depends on the conditions you have to deal with. You can usually get by with laying down a conventional flooring like the self-stick tiles, but you will want to be sure you get something rated for "below grade" installation, and approved for use on concrete. ("Below grade" means on a floor lower than prevailing ground level in this case - not just "worse than the average crap we sell.") It's pretty much normal for basement spaces to have significantly higher humidity than above-grade rooms, so a dehumidifier might help once you get rid of the existing crud; but to be effective you almost always need a pump to get the condensate out of the dehumidifier, since it will just recycle if you drain it into a sump in the basement space. Your local lumber/hardware people can probably give you advice that's appropriate to local conditions, if you remember the caution to always talk to at least three experts before you give one of them your money. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: artbrooks Date: 07 Oct 03 - 06:36 PM Good luck. There may be useful suggestions here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Oct 03 - 06:46 PM Aha! Good suggestions. Thanks! The insurance scam is one that only an idiot would employ. The money is not the part I am worried about in this situation, it's my health that concerns me...and the amount of physical work involved. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: Barry Finn Date: 07 Oct 03 - 08:29 PM Hi Little Hawk I would go mostly with what WYSIW says above. IMO I'd want to 1st (after getting down to bare concrete) lay down a 6 mil poly vapor barrier over the bare concrete. Then I'd lay down pressure treated 2x6's flat, 16" OC. Then between the 2x6's lay down a layer of 1 1/2" insulation or better (expanded polystyrene or extruded polystyrene or similar but not a poly iso). Then above the pressure treated 2x6's I'd want to install a plywood sub floor, no thiner than 5/8", a 3/4" layer would be better though, especially if you lay the 2x6's 24" OC. Another thought (an improvement from above). Lay the vapor barrier down then take a 2x4 pt flat, on top of that nailer, nail a vertical upright so when you lay it on the floor it'll resemble an upside down T. Then lay the insulation down between the uprights leaving a ¾" gap between the insulation & the vapor barrier. There's your venting. Then start your sub floor (or floor) using 5/8" min or even better use ¾" plywood to nailers. This way you won't need to penetrate the VP. Get as much R-Value. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: wysiwyg Date: 07 Oct 03 - 08:34 PM Yes, unless the ciling is low and you'll miss the space taken, or if electric outlets are low. Good specs, Barry, on the details! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: Bassic Date: 07 Oct 03 - 08:56 PM Little Hawk, I can only apologise most profusely for the "hijacking" of my computer earlier today. Let me assure you that I in no way wish to be associated with the APPAULING suggestion that you should want to "rip off" the poor insurance companies! After all, we all suffer in the end through higher insurance payments dont we! I just wanted to make that clear. As for the damp problem, it is a thing we are very familiar with in the UK. Though I am no expert in building and construction techniques I do know that one of the principal causes of damp problems is poor ventilation. If you do "lift" the floor level above the concrete base then my suggestion would be to ensure a good flow of air in the resulting cavity, that will ensure that any patches of moisture dont "stagnate" and encourage further growth of mold. Just remember (as my eternal optimist maternal grandmother from Hull used to say) "Worse things happen at sea!!" Keep smiling :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: harpgirl Date: 07 Oct 03 - 10:38 PM THE CAVE IS TOO DIRTY TO CLEAN. MOVE OUT! And anyway LH, why is your whole life inside one dirty, moldy, former garage? And why is moving furniture too much effort for you? What self respecting woman would share that living arrangement? Love, harpgirl |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: NicoleC Date: 07 Oct 03 - 11:36 PM My suggestion: Rip up carpet. Scrape all the gunk off the floor using whatever chemicals needed but VENTILATE. Throughly clean concrete with approved stuff. Remember, concrete reacts chemically with many items, which is whhy you can really only concrete stain a new floor, not an old one. Then either a) Pour a self-leveling (non-concrete) concrete overlay. It'll take some looking on the web, but you can find ones that don't take weeks to cure like a concrete concrete overlay would. Many are decorative and come in colors and patterns. b) Paint the floor with waterproof sealing paint designed to block water seeping through concrete on the outside of buildings. For example, if a contractor does a lousy job on the walls of a concrete tilt-up building, they'll just paint the inside of the walls with this stuff. It's not cheap, and you may have to call around until you find a local contractor who can and will procure the stuff for you. Finally, your new painted or overlay concrete floor will need some rugs to take the chill off. If you have a water problem, though, any floor you lay over it will be temporary, because the water will destroy it. Alternately, consult a licensed contractor that is familiar with the area. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 08 Oct 03 - 12:09 AM The floor could be letting water seep through, or it could be the humidity condensing on the floor. A good humidifier is a start, as suggested. Never put a wood flooring on a surface that has a tendency to wetness. That'll show up in the warped wood in a hurry, and you'll find your self tripping over your floor. The garage in my house that I enclosed bears no resemblance whatever to a garage. I built a new one in the back yard, and in the one that was part of the house (that conveniently had a window through the stone front of the house already) underwent a thorough upgrade. We leveled the floor, put in a hall and two rooms, extended the look of the front room where the big garage door once was by building in a substantial three-tier bay window and a regular door beside it. We opened a doorway into the front hall and it looks like it has always been this way. The former owner was here one day and was quite surprised and pleased with my work. I have to tile the front room floor still, and the cracks from the old concrete have transmitted through the new concrete and cracked a few tiles in the office. I'll replace those one of these days. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Oct 03 - 01:42 AM Awright!!! LOL! Thanks for the good laugh there, Harpgirl, I needed one. You ask: "why is your whole life inside one dirty, moldy, former garage? And why is moving furniture too much effort for you? What self respecting woman would share that living arrangement?" Hmm. Well, I shall answer that in sections... 1. My whole life actually isn't in there, and it's not dirty in the least. It looks very nice. It "in no way resembles a garage", as someone else said up above there about their space. I've been there for ten years, and I didn't notice any mold until I made the mistake of putting that futon down on the carpet a while back. Dumb move. The floor couldn't breathe and it eventually got moldy. It's one room in a nice house with shared facilities, just so happens that my personal stuff and my sleeping arrangements are in that one room, and the rest of the place is devoted to other purposes...one of which is my office, for instance, which is in another part of the house. 2. The furniture moving? I'm lazy, and like to avoid backbreaking physical work whenever I can. No apologies! I prefer mental work. 3. What self-respecting woman would share...Ohhhh ha! ha! ha! (gasp!) this is the part that really cracked me up! None, I hope. I like it that way. I even planned it that way. I truly enjoy living alone. I'm "sick of love", to quote Bob Dylan, if "love" means romance and conventional living arrangements. Every time I have ever tried it it nearly destroyed me. This is not to speak critically of the character of most of my former girlfriends...(with one or two exceptions when I was inexperienced and very foolish)...it's just that I'm not inclined to living with other people in a traditional arrangement, that's all. It drives me to desperation. It's like very slowly drowning upsidedown inside a fruit jar. Them as wants it can bloody well have it! I prefer having self-respecting women as friends now, not as lovers and roommates. I have found I enjoy living either alone...or in a communal setup with a fair number of other people (of both sexes), such as an ashram or something along that line...providing I have enough in common philosophically/spiritually with those people. It's far more stimulating than living with one other person. I don't give a damn whether I have sex partners anymore. It used to be a big concern when I was younger, now I just shrug...a friend of mine said the other day she has come to the conclusion (in her mid 40's) that sex is overrated. I agree. You read books and watch movies, and you'd think it was the 2nd coming of Christ. Well, it's a very nice experience, but it comes with a whole lot of baggage, I have found. Too much baggage. Yep, by golly, you CAN live without 'em... Maybe Jesus and Buddha felt like that too, you never know...(not that I'm suggesting I'm a prophet, but all people are not intended to form "couples" with other people, after all, any nore than they are all intended to raise families or join the local church or get legally married or get baptized or whatever). And women make excellent friends. Why spoil a good thing? I wish to God I'd known this thirty years ago, but I had to learn the hard way. I will perhaps share my room with a woman again in my next incarnation. I've had it for this one. No regrets, except that I never dated Winona Ryder back in the 90's... :-) She had lovely eyes. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: Pied Piper Date: 08 Oct 03 - 05:38 AM Sex with other people is OK, but you can't beet the real thing. But more seriously it may well just be condensation, so the temperature of the walls and floor, and ventilation might be the cause. Do you spend a lot of time in the room? Human beings need about 2 litres of water a day, and assuming you piss about 500ml (presumably not on the carpet), then that leave 1.5 Litres of water leaving your body through breathing and sweating. If you spend 6 hour a day in the room you will output 375 ml of water. Obviously if the ventilation is not good that water will remain and build up. As it's a Garage it probably does not have cavity walls, so insulting them would help. What type of heating do you use? Is the problem worse in winter? TTFN PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: GUEST,PegD Date: 08 Oct 03 - 07:08 AM Not an expert; just battling a mold problem here in Northeast U.S.: 1st floor flooded (water came in under door); was "dried up", by someone else, immediately, but 1. rug pieces were left under heavy furniture (keep that in mind as someone suggested you leave rug-pieces till later), and 2. rooms were left closed up in summer heat. When I got to the scene, the "mold factory" was in full swing. Have been removing things and wiping mold off the walls and kitchen cabinets (with mask on) for 5 weeks now. Thank God no-one has to live on this floor right now. But the greatest improvement came from leaving windows open a crack. I removed family photos from albums and am slowly re-filing them. Many other books, mags and furniture smell moldy . New clothing in packages smelled musty but lost smell when removed from site and aired. Some suggestions: Remove things that mold can live and grow on: paper, cardboard, cloth. (wood, plasterboard, masonite). Might even be worth small investment in temp. storage space (sorry, this does involve physical labor) for items you don't want destroyed. Can only tell you that two weeks after starting cleanup, I found that papers that were in another room, inside an envelope, on top of a table were WET--probably not as much of a problem now in Ontario--here it was a hot, damp summer. (however, if you do want to clear things out--this is a good opportunity: leave everything alone and in a week or two it'll all be moldy and you can then throw it out). Best mold-killer is chlorine bleach, but I have used non-chlorine bleach or diluted peroxide and both have worked on walls. and cabinets. There are spray-products advertised on the net that sound interesting. The most important thing (to me) is getting stuff out of the mold's path. In case you need motivation, find story that was on "60 Minutes" some years ago about "black mold" aka "stachybatros atra" (sp?). Grows in basements --especially on carpeted concrete floors. Affects children much faster than adults--often with fatal results. Good luck-- hope you move faster than we did! . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 08 Oct 03 - 07:19 AM Pied Piper - suggested "insulting [sic] (the walls)" Why, what have they ever done to you? :-) Robin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: Roger the Skiffler Date: 08 Oct 03 - 09:35 AM When I was little the house we lived in (1940s and early 50s) had rotten floorboards so my dad and his mates ripped them out and concreted the floor. Then we treated it every year with something called "liquid lino" (ie linoleum) in an unappealing shade of green. That seemed to seal it but gradually wore away where we didn't have rugs. Council re-housed us after a couple of years. I wonder if some similar preparation is around today. It has remained in my memory as the old joke "I was a musical child, played on the linoleum when I was only 6". RtS (Alas the jokes, like the musical skills, got no better) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: Roger the Skiffler Date: 08 Oct 03 - 09:37 AM Hey, Max's new Google links work! There's a link to THIS STUFF RtS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 08 Oct 03 - 10:52 AM Little Hawk, I know several women who have similar feelings about living with men, now that they've reached an age where their children are grown and they find that occasional overnight company is enough. They'd rather have men as friends who have their own houses. What makes this work is having a large enough community of friends so that you don't feel isolated when you DO live alone. So maybe you need to have a few in your community come help you move furniture one afternoon? Offer them a nice pizza or spaghetti dinner by way of compensation? Be careful of any of the chemicals we have suggested as far as mold removal, glue removal, cleaning mold off of furniture, etc. They can all be as noxious as the mold itself, or worse. As was mentioned, be sure to have good ventilation. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Oct 03 - 01:23 PM Yeah, I know several women who've reached that stage. They seem to feel just the same way I do. This is no surprise to me. Ventilation is good in the room. Walls are good, well insulated. I think the carpet is the main problem, so it will go soon. I'm willing to do the physical work, just want to minimize it in a practical fashion, that's all. Thanks for all the good info, everyone, I knew I'd get plenty of it on Mudcat. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Battle with mold/mildew continues... From: M.Ted Date: 08 Oct 03 - 01:55 PM I liked the handyman link above--one of the questions seemed to be nearly the same as yours, and all the info seems related--I don't think you have any choice but to move the furniture and deal with the floor-- My vote goes for either a ceramic tile floor, or a Pergo floor(which will look great, but you might not like on principle, because it is fake wood)because they won't cost any more than anything else and eliminate future moistiure problems--have a professional contractor put them in )and it will be properly protected from moisture and guaranteed to boot--also, it will be done in a day or so-- |
