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Subject: Instrument key designations? From: ddw Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:30 PM I have a question that I've wondered about for about 50 years, but have never thought to ask when I was around somebody who might know, I'm sure there are Mudcatters out there who might help me with it. As a kid I played trumpet and the model I had was alternately referred to as a B-flat trumpet or B-flat cornet. I know there are also C trumpets and E-flat trumpets and I know other instruments are given similar designations. My question is, what does that B-flat refer to? It would seem logical that it would refer to the tone produced in an open position, but with no valves pressed the notes most often produced are, in ascending order, C, G, C and E — which is a C chord. So why was it called a B-flat cornet? Or did my band director not recognize and/or understand something and this was really a C trumpet? I've tried to Google out an explanation, but I haven't found a site that bothers with such arcane info. A Trumpet for Dummies-level explanation would be much appreciated. cheers, david |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Sooz Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:34 PM Doesn't it mean "the key you can play it in without learning the fingering for any extra notes" like on a whistle? |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: ddw Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:56 PM Sooz, That's what I would have thought, but, as I said in my original post, the notes on my horn without using the valves were C, G, C and E — a C chord. So I'm still wondering why it was called a B-flat trumpet. cheers, david |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: s&r Date: 26 Sep 04 - 01:44 PM Was the C concert pitch or instument pitch? Many instruments are written in C but do not sound C - this is for ease of reading, but it does mean that two differently pitched instruments can't play off the same hymn sheet. Stu |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: JohnInKansas Date: 26 Sep 04 - 01:57 PM For "key notated" instruments, a tune written as in the key of C and played as written on a Bb instrument will actually sound as if played in Bb on a "concert tuned" instrument. Nearly all strings are scored in concert pitch, so when a fiddle plays a C it is a C. When a Bb cornet plays "his C" it actually is "the fiddlers Bb." When an alto saxophone (Eb) plays "his C" it acutally is "the fiddlers Eb." The music score that the Bb player uses must be written 2 semitones higher than the score for the strings. If the fiddles see a tune in G on their score, the Bb instrument must play from a score that's in A, so that when the fiddles play a C, the Bb instrument plays "his D" in order to sound the same actual note. Traditionally strings, flutes, oboes, etc. are "key of C" instruments. Trumpets/Cornets and clarinets are Bb, but either can be switched to A by changing a tuning slide or barrel. It's usually much easier for an A instrument to play with C instruments than for a Bb instrument to make the necessary key changes, so the A versions are commonly used in orchestras. In marching bands, the Bb Clarinet, Trumpet/Cornet, and Tenor Saxophone, and the Eb Alto Clarinet and Alto and Baritone Saxophones are the commonly "massed" instruments, so music tends to be written to favor them (easiest fingerings), and the C instruments have to be transposed to the more difficult keys so that they can all sound together. There is a difference between trumpet and cornet, but it's one of "tone quality" rather than tuning. The trumpet typically has a longer but smaller tube diameter, while the cornet is a "shorter but fatter" tube. The cornet frequently has a more tapered tube than the trumpet. The difference in construction gives the cornet a more mellow (or the trumpet a more shrill) tone. John |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Geoff the Duck Date: 26 Sep 04 - 02:25 PM Basically S&R is getting the idea behind the designation. I used to play Flugel Horn in a brass band. Most of the instruments are B-flat instruments, which means that if you play the fingering for the written note "C", the note which is actually played is a B-flat. It also follows that every other note you play is in reality two semitones lower that what is written on your sheet music. Compare this with tin whistle playing, where it is accepted practice to use different whistles for any choice of key, or the practice of using a capo on a guitar neck so that the singer accompanies themself with chord shapes which are easier to play. In a brass band most of the instruments are in B-flat, although some of them are in E-flat e.g. the tenor horn and the E-flat bass (smaller tuba). Other wind instruments are also not in the key of "C". Clarinets are usually B-flat. Recorders come in several different size/pitch range, alternating between instruments in "C" and ones in "F". Trumpets are made in B-flat and also in "C". Trumpets used in bands where they play with B-flat instruments are likely to be pitched also in B-flat to prevent problems of transposing music into a different written" key. A trumpet in "C" would be used by a player where it suits the combination of instruments THEY are playing with. Quack! Geoff the Duck. |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Sorcha Date: 26 Sep 04 - 02:33 PM Thank you, John. I know, but couldn't figure out how to say it. |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: ddw Date: 26 Sep 04 - 02:43 PM John, Geoff and S&R — thanks a bunch. I guess I had never twigged on the fact that other sections of the band were playing from scores written in different keys, so I certainly couldn't figure out what was going on there. Since my band director used trumpet leads for most things, I just assumed that whatever key the trumpet score was written in would be the key the whole group was using. I had long since gotten rid of my trumpet by the time I started playing other instruments, so I never cross-referenced the sounds/keys to discover how that worked. Thanks for solving a long-standing mystery for me. cheers, david |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Amos Date: 26 Sep 04 - 03:27 PM John: I too have been picking at this question for a long time and your explanation is the first I have seen that was clear enough that I think I will remember it now! Thanks, A |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: JohnInKansas Date: 26 Sep 04 - 07:12 PM As when you use a capo, or a cheap tin whistle, or just pucker up and blow, perfect pitch is not really essential; but perfect relative pitch (getting the right intervals) is very helpful. The "key" of your instrument really only matters when you are playing with others - especially if their instruments are "differently keyed." For band and orchestra instruments, the key of a given instrument is largely a matter of tradition; although people have advanced all kinds of preposterous notions to "explain" why a given instrument is in a particular key. It is likely that the brass and semi-brass (reed) instruments commonly used in marching bands were moved down to Bb from the orchestral C largely because a slightly larger instrument is louder and lower pitched sounds carry further with less percieved distortion in the outdoor venues where these instruments are/were commonly used. (Note that there is no explanation at all for the bagpipe, which I understand is often "in Bb," much less why they're tuned as they are.) The need to accomodate differently keyed companion players has led to some rather exotic variants. The oboe, which is basically a "C" pipe, nearly always has the keys arranged so that they play an F# in the place where the sax or clarinet player would expect an F. In effect it's a C instrument but rigged to make playing in G or D easier. This is likely because the fiddles, who sort of dominate the orchestra, like that screechy noise they get when the scale falls on the top strings, so they want to play in A. By having the F# "pre-rigged" the oboist only has to add two "complex sharp-note fingerings" to get there instead of three. For most woodwinds, the fingering required for the "accidentals" is significantly more complex than for the "natural scale notes." Flutes are available with "open sharp" notes for the same reason, although there's more choice in which particular "fingering" you get when you order a new one. The fingering for a "tonic scale" on a tinwhistle is actually much like the fingering for a "D scale" on a "C" oboe. The 6-1/2 fret (and sometimes a 1-1/2 &/or 3-1/2) on a lap dulcimer is another example of an attempt to "accomodate" alternate keys and perhaps to play with differently keyed instruments. It's unnatural, and the traditionalists don't like it, but it sort of works. Note a complicated subject, but there are many nuances and details that may (or may not) be interesting. John |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: s&r Date: 26 Sep 04 - 07:27 PM This article is a straightforward summary of mos instruments Stu |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Peace Date: 26 Sep 04 - 07:32 PM users.wireweb.net/green/arrange.htm This article too. |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Mark Cohen Date: 26 Sep 04 - 11:16 PM Note that there is no explanation at all for the bagpipe... John, I think that, as usual, you hit it right on the head. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 26 Sep 04 - 11:58 PM Yes there is. The Bagpipe is an ancient wind instrument that was originally used to terrify one's opponents in battle. That does it. And a very good Elegant description JiK. Robin |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: JohnInKansas Date: 27 Sep 04 - 07:56 AM Robin - I was told once, by an elder relative who was a veteran of one of those "great wars," that the 'pipes' had the same beauty as an approaching horse cavalry bugle - if they're on your side. As to key, many wind instruments are easier to play if they are pitched approximately to the same range as the player's voice, since many of these instruments respond to the same "acoustic volume" that produces the player's natural singing range. There may be some validity to the argument that Bb is a "natural" key for an instrument used by/with "big strappin' males," as it seems to be a favored key for baritone/bass solo singers. The "orchestral keys," G and A, were described to me once as "for little ladies, squeeky adolescents, and small headed Frenchmen," by a music student who favored this view. (He was a tenor singer and French horn [F] player. No comment on the size of his head.) John |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Big Mick Date: 27 Sep 04 - 08:08 AM One explanation on the pipes is that they were never meant to be an ensemble instrument, hence they did not have to be dead on a key. This is particularly true of the Uillean or Union pipes. They only had to be in tune relative to themselves. This is one reason why so many vintage sets are so difficult to reed and then tune for playing with other instruments. Design has only been moderately standardised, so learning to reed/tune them can be quite an adventure. All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 27 Sep 04 - 09:52 AM ... and if they are 'just' intonation as would be understandable from whatyou and and the fact that they were meant to be 'solo' instruments, then trying to play 'tempered' instruments with them is just asking for headaches... and of course, then who cares what key they are in? |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Big Mick Date: 27 Sep 04 - 09:59 AM Exactly right. They are a just intonation instrument, so when one is attempting to play with folks using inexpensive even temperament tuners, it gets a little dodgy. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Geoff the Duck Date: 27 Sep 04 - 10:50 AM And if you try to play bagpipes with a temperamental tuna it gets a bit fishy :0) Quack! GtD. |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Vixen Date: 27 Sep 04 - 11:37 AM 'Scuse me for being so dense on this topic...I've read and re-read the above explanations, and I'm STILL clueless about what is being explained. Not the fault of the explainers... I just don't get it at all. This is from someone who has never played one of these instruments. To me, the relevant questions about an instrument are 1) is it diatonic or chromatic? and 2) if it's diationic, can you get some limited chromaticity out of it by cross-fingering or wind manipulation? E.g., the flute is a "C" instrument, but it's chromatic within its range, and can be played in any number of keys. A "D" pennywhistle can be reasonably cross-fingered to play in "G". A "G" harmonica can play in other keys if the player is adept at bending notes. It seems to me that things would be a lot less confusing if everyone played off the same musical staff, in the same key, and simply learned to read the music and play the notes that their instruments were capable of. But as I said, the more I read the more convinced I am that I don't understand the problem. V |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Moonunit Date: 27 Sep 04 - 05:38 PM Don't worry Vixen... I think everyone has probably explained it better than me, but here is the Moonunit attempt to explain what cats like JohnInKansas have described so beautifully. Here goes folk(ie)s: Disregarding whether an instrument is diatonic or chromatic... First, if an instrument is in the key of C, we say that it plays at concert pitch. This is because when a C instrument plays the note C, you are hearing the note C! When a Bb instrument plays the note C on their instrument, what you actually hear is the concert pitch Bb! So if the Bb trumpets and clarinets are playing in C, the C instruments will be playing in Bb (otherwise the music is going to get painful). If you play a Bb instrument and you want to play with your concert pitch friends, you need to transpose up a tone from their music. Likewise, if you are in concert pitch and want to play along with the Bb crew, you need to transpose down a tone from their music! Hey ho, there I go... I hope I haven't confused things for you further Vixen. |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Moonunit Date: 27 Sep 04 - 05:50 PM Regarding the pennywhistle, the note-names (i.e. D whistle, C whist etc.) are a bit of a misnomer... A "D" pennywhistle is so called because the lowest note is a D and the key of D major is the easiest and most natural set up to play on the instrument... the confusion arises because the D pennywhistle is actually a concert pitch C instrument (diatonic and not chromatic). Therefore, when you play a D on the D whistle you hear a concert pitch D... Really a D whistle should be known as a D whistle in C concert pitch!! Put another way, a D whistle is a C instrument that plays D (and G with cross fingering) diatonically! Ahem. Clear as mud(cats)! Jude |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: s&r Date: 27 Sep 04 - 06:01 PM Let's suppose that you play a range of penny whistles -D - Bb - G - F etc. Now let's suppose that you read music which is written in C for a C whistle. The whistle is now a transposing instrument just as is a Bb cornet. Stu |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: s&r Date: 28 Sep 04 - 05:09 AM What's really confusing is when music is printed for guitar with the instruction, say, 'capo 2' and chord symbols are then shown as they sound not as they are played Stu |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Vixen Date: 28 Sep 04 - 08:55 AM Aha! Moonunit (Jude) has said precisely what confuses me most! "When a Bb instrument plays the note C on their instrument, what you actually hear is the concert pitch Bb!" What confuses me (I think!) is the idea that "playing a C" doesn't produce a C-tone. If what I hear is Bb, than what's being played is Bb, no? (It's ok to tell me that until I learn to play one of these instruments I'll never understand....) V |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: s&r Date: 28 Sep 04 - 10:03 AM A Bb player is told that the C note on his music is produced (say) by closing all the holes. The music says he is playing a C. He isn't - the note is Bb. The music is lying if you like. There are different pieces of sheet music in a band using (say )Bb instruments. If the band is playing in Bb so are the Bb instruments, but their sheet music is written in C, all C instruments have music written in Bb John plays Bb sax and fingers what he thinks is C Joanne plays (C) flute and fingers Bb. They play the same note. 'Why?' is a different question - you can find reasons, but a lot of music is like English spelling - it just is. Stu |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Vixen Date: 28 Sep 04 - 10:19 AM My head is starting to ache... Stu, I think "it just is" probably covers it. I am really glad *I* don't have to play one of these instruments! V |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Sep 04 - 09:26 PM "What's really confusing is when music is printed for guitar with the instruction, say, 'capo 2' and chord symbols are then shown as they sound not as they are played" That's really WRONG! If the 'capo 2' instruction is there, then the symbols should be as fingered, not as sounded... Cause unless you are some sort of virtuoso, you will probably never figure out that sheet music... Robin |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Bert Date: 28 Sep 04 - 11:16 PM ddw, if your Bflat trumpet really plays a C then you'd be better off playing the Crumpet. |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 29 Sep 04 - 03:47 AM Vixen - to relieve you from your headache: "When a Bb instrument plays the note C on their instrument, what you actually hear is the concert pitch Bb!" could be better expressed: When you play a tone noted in your sheet as C you actually produce a Bb. This procedure had its merits in older times when you didn't have brass instruments with ventiles. You couldn't play scales, only a limited number of tones, e.g. (rising) C (basic tone)-c (octave)-g-c'-e'-g'-i (a tone not fitting any harmony)-c''-d''-e'' (with the last three tones you're pretty d. good). So they had often to change their instruments to other ones with different basic tones, but since the basic tone was always described with the same note in the sheets you hadn't do a lot of thinking and could concentrate on blowing. The different notations led to problems for the church brass choirs when playing together with other instruments in C, mostly the organ. In Germany J. Kuhlo (the trombone general) introduced the concert pitch for the brass choirs about the beginning of the 20th century; our firemens' bands still use the traditional pitch. |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: s&r Date: 29 Sep 04 - 04:24 AM Or try this which is fairly clear Transposing instruments Stu |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: catspaw49 Date: 29 Sep 04 - 07:04 AM John and others have pretty well explained all this......just a couple of notes and a minor correction. Not that it matters a ratzass, but John was a bit unclear of the trumpet/cornet difference. In appearance, a cornet IS shorter and kinda' fatter looking than a trumpet, but the tubing length is the same......about 9 feet in total. The significant difference is not in the size of the bore, but in the shape. The cornet bore is conical and the trumpet bore is cylindrical. This changes the tone and differentiates the two instruments with the cornet having a warmer and darker sound where the trumpet is brighter and edgier in sound. Both are available in different bore sizes as well to accomodate styles of music and players. As a former jazz reeds player, transposing was an essential skill that simply needs a bit of practice to be as natural as anything else. Most small groups out playing dances and the like work from Fake Books which are simply the lead lines and chords for any song. What you do is relative to what the instrument grouping is but in most cases a sax/clarinet/flute player needs to learn to transpose quickly on sight to get the lead line down the first time. Well not if you do it on flute which is already in C, but Sax is a different matter. If you are using an Alto or Bari in E flat or a Tenor and Soprano in B flat, it's really not too tough to transpose. On B-flat instruments, Tenor and Soprano and including trumpet as well which sound a full tone lower (playing C sounds B-flat), read the staff a full tone higher! Then change the key signature. The Key of B-flat has two flats so subtract two flats from the flat keys and add two sharps to the sharp keys (and C). On Alto and Bari Sax which are in E-flat, a minor third higher, simply read down a full space or a full line. When you change the key signatures this will in effect become the minor third difference. In this case since E-flat has 3 flats, subtract three flats in the flat keys and add three sharps in the sharp keys (and again C). If this sounds hard, it really isn't. It's just like learning a new clef. The easiest thing to miss are the accidentals and not surprisingly, in a lot of worn Fake Books, those are often circled by some user or another to help you catch it. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Vixen Date: 29 Sep 04 - 08:59 AM Wilfried--the history of the brass instruments is fascinating. I had no idea! I don't know much of anything about orchestral instruments. Stu--that link was great... And, heaven help me, I found out I play one of these things...the alto recorder. When I learned to play it, however, I was taught to finger an F when I saw an F in the music. When I learned the soprano recorder (at the same time I was learning alto) I was taught to finger a C when I saw a C in the music. Two different instruments, two different fingerings, no sweat. However, in my new-found enlightenment, I understand how all this confusion came about...and I am consequently no longer confused! Thank you for your patience and wisdom! Thank you to ddw for asking the question! As always, Mudcats are the best! V |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: MaineDog Date: 29 Sep 04 - 09:06 AM I have heard that recorders used to be made in G also, ( and probably still can be if you want one ), and I have always wanted one in e-flat. I wonder why recorders are not considered transposing instruments? I would guess that it has more to do with the traditional ways of writing music for the instrument than the instrument itself. Most recorder music I have seen uses the standard treble or bass clef, and the notes to be sounded are shown in the music. The player is expected to use appropriate fingering for his own instrument to get the right notes. MD |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Roger the Skiffler Date: 29 Sep 04 - 09:22 AM (groaning quietly) My brain hurts! I'm glad I stick to washboard & keyless (ie tuneless)singing. RtS |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 29 Sep 04 - 10:44 AM "I wonder why recorders are not considered transposing instruments?" Tradition. |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: JohnInKansas Date: 29 Sep 04 - 11:46 AM spaw - Good explanation on the transpositions (and on the trumpet/cornet difference). In our combo, we often used the trombone part (C in bass cleff) for the Eb instruments. Just change the key signature and read it as though it was treble cleff and you're there. Most of the combo books were available as a set, with C, Bb, Eb treble, and C bass parts in separate books, but "struggling musicians" seldom could find - or afford - a full set. And nobody ever found one that included "Stardust," the one song frequently requested that our trumpet guy could never get right. John |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: catspaw49 Date: 29 Sep 04 - 03:47 PM Good point on the bass clef John!! The best thing any small group can have is one helluva' piano player. We used to get Norm Tyack a lot if we could. He was great on the request stuff. If any of us knew the lead line he picked the thing up immediately no matter what key. I had the use of an alto flute for a few days and had never played one before but loved that smokey, dark sound. I piddled around with it for a day or two and carried it along to a gig that Saturday. I thought I'd play one easy tune just for the hell of it. "One Note Samba" was good as I tended to do it on flute anyway and the glisses at phrase endings sounded almost sexual on that alto. So I start off and Norm's a bit off but picks up within a few measures and continues right along. The two brass guys, two of my best friends, are kinda' looking odd and trying a little light noodling. They eventually come along but it's nothing like normal and when it's over, Mike says, "Jesus man, what the hell key were you playing in?" Never before had even thought about it, but an alto flute is in G. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Vixen Date: 29 Sep 04 - 03:51 PM Spaw, you never fail to amaze me... V |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: JohnInKansas Date: 29 Sep 04 - 09:47 PM Spaw - My little combo was so cheap we had to avoid pianos altogether. Most of the "venues" we played had an old beater of a piano, but it was always tuned to standard pitch rather than concert - because they were afraid they'd bend their tired old soundboard. By the time you pull the slides (and mouthpieces) out far enough to get a concert tuned instrument down to standard, usually something falls off. Our Bb trumpet player borrowed an "A" slide once, and it worked fairly well for him, but the rest of us had to resort to things like masking tape etc. for that gig. John |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 30 Sep 04 - 02:21 AM Vixen - an easy way for transposing in the treble recorder family is to finger the C-instruments in the F-way and the other way round. Instead of carrying around all my recorders I often use this thechnique when I play some pieces which have notes lower than C on my soprano recorder. Wilfried |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: GUEST,wanna be jim elliot Date: 04 Dec 04 - 11:07 PM |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: GUEST Date: 04 Dec 04 - 11:09 PM hey i have a question for any sax players. what is the difference in key signatures between piano and sax. i am trying so write music for a sax and cant figure out how to transpose it. help i need an answer quick |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 05 Dec 04 - 12:34 AM The information is given earlier in this thread. Of course, you do need to know what kind of sax you are writing for. |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: GUEST,Auggie (no cookie) Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:59 AM John in Kansas gets my vote for the MEM Award (Most Erudite Mudcatter). Computer and tech information par excellence and in an understandable fashion, and now this. Dang, I'm impressed. Thank You John. All those years growing up when the orchestra sat and tuned to my oboe's "A", I never knew they weren't all playing an "A" as well. I feel so,....Dumb. |
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Subject: Instrument key designations? From: GUEST,russiangirl Date: 17 Jan 05 - 10:52 PM hey i am a senior in my high school band and for concert season i need to switch from Bb clarinet and play Eb alto clarinet. i'm pretty sure the fingerings are the same but the pitches are different... can you tell me the difference in pitch? thn |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: GUEST Date: 18 Jan 05 - 09:39 AM Okay, I'll throw you a curve ball: In high school I played a Sousaphone that was designated as "Double B Flat". What's that all about? Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Instrument key designations? From: Bernard Date: 18 Jan 05 - 07:55 PM In simple terms, 'Double' (or 'Contra') when applied to a bass instrument means it plays an octave lower than written. The Trombone plays an octave below the Trumpet, and the BBb Sousaphone plays two octaves below the Trumpet, hence 'double'. The Sousaphone was designed by Sousa as a marching version of the Tuba - it is easier to carry. Whilst we're here, Sousa's birth name was John Philip So - he put the USA on the end later! |
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